Tragedy strikes (close to home for me)
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Cause?
Any word on the cause of this? Were the watchkeepers asleep? Did the coal carrier sound a horn? Was fog a factor? It would be interesting and instructive to know more. Gary Wyngarden S/V Wanderlust h37.5
Any word on the cause of this? Were the watchkeepers asleep? Did the coal carrier sound a horn? Was fog a factor? It would be interesting and instructive to know more. Gary Wyngarden S/V Wanderlust h37.5
The sailboat was most likely at fault
The sailboat was most likely at fault. Smaller boats shall keep out of the way of larger vessels. I guess we wont know the whole story for a while. What happened to radar? radio communications?
The sailboat was most likely at fault. Smaller boats shall keep out of the way of larger vessels. I guess we wont know the whole story for a while. What happened to radar? radio communications?
Yes, too close and a 600 foot
vessel will have its way. It seems to be a regular in the area, as a lightering vessel. Link is to Saugerties lighthouse keeper's log.
vessel will have its way. It seems to be a regular in the area, as a lightering vessel. Link is to Saugerties lighthouse keeper's log.
The sail boat might have been coming from
Newport,RI, I was there last weekend for the Boat Show and there were plenty of large sailboats like the the one just described. When I was coming home across the ferry from Brigeport to Port Jefferson there were a lot of tankers on the sound that night and I thought about a boat that went between a tow line at night a long time ago and there was a whole family on board it was a real tragedy so you need to keep a sharp lookout and know what your looking at cause there a lot bigger.
Newport,RI, I was there last weekend for the Boat Show and there were plenty of large sailboats like the the one just described. When I was coming home across the ferry from Brigeport to Port Jefferson there were a lot of tankers on the sound that night and I thought about a boat that went between a tow line at night a long time ago and there was a whole family on board it was a real tragedy so you need to keep a sharp lookout and know what your looking at cause there a lot bigger.
the factors so far
As the story unfolds we'll all have our opinions on this, but a couple of things jump out right away (see my link below to an article with some different detail): 1. Is it really feasible and prudent for a sailboat of that size to be operated by just 3 people? (Possibly, if they had some of the fancy automation such large boats are being equipped with now). 2. Were all 3 people on board qualified to help operate such a large vessel? (if not, the choice of understaffing looks worse). 3. Was a night passage (4am according to the Courant) a wise choice for such a large, shorthanded sailboat in this busy waterway? 4. Did either vessel make radar and radio contact? If not, why not? 5. Did the commercial vessel detect the presence of the sailboat and attempt avoidance? (given the size of the sailboat it seems unlikely they could have been missed by radar or not have had active ssb radio to be identified by). And for Tonyb, the official rule is that deep-draft vessels have right of way only when they are "constrained by their draft" to a portion of a channel. Otherwise, the sailboat may have had right of way. Still, I'm convinced that loophole in the regs is a bad idea and that large vessels should have the top level of right-of-way.
As the story unfolds we'll all have our opinions on this, but a couple of things jump out right away (see my link below to an article with some different detail): 1. Is it really feasible and prudent for a sailboat of that size to be operated by just 3 people? (Possibly, if they had some of the fancy automation such large boats are being equipped with now). 2. Were all 3 people on board qualified to help operate such a large vessel? (if not, the choice of understaffing looks worse). 3. Was a night passage (4am according to the Courant) a wise choice for such a large, shorthanded sailboat in this busy waterway? 4. Did either vessel make radar and radio contact? If not, why not? 5. Did the commercial vessel detect the presence of the sailboat and attempt avoidance? (given the size of the sailboat it seems unlikely they could have been missed by radar or not have had active ssb radio to be identified by). And for Tonyb, the official rule is that deep-draft vessels have right of way only when they are "constrained by their draft" to a portion of a channel. Otherwise, the sailboat may have had right of way. Still, I'm convinced that loophole in the regs is a bad idea and that large vessels should have the top level of right-of-way.
Collision
Hey Rich, What are you jumping on Tony for. He didn't say a word about right of way. He said the smaller boat should stay out of the way. FYI, Tony has a 100 ton masters, and is a pretty damn good sailor. I have crossed the Gulf with him, so this is not second hand info. I agree with him. Get the hell out of the way when a giant of a boat is coming your way. The final word is simple. Tell the dead woman that she had the right of way, and see what good that does her. Right of way or not, I am going to move over for the big boys, or for that matter anyone I am on a collision course with. I will always prefer being alive to being right.
Hey Rich, What are you jumping on Tony for. He didn't say a word about right of way. He said the smaller boat should stay out of the way. FYI, Tony has a 100 ton masters, and is a pretty damn good sailor. I have crossed the Gulf with him, so this is not second hand info. I agree with him. Get the hell out of the way when a giant of a boat is coming your way. The final word is simple. Tell the dead woman that she had the right of way, and see what good that does her. Right of way or not, I am going to move over for the big boys, or for that matter anyone I am on a collision course with. I will always prefer being alive to being right.
Floating islands
We were out on Sunday observing the Barkald from a few hundred feet away as she loaded coal into a barge alongside. Would have thought her length closer to 800 feet , but she was riding fairly high as she was obviously almost empty. It is hard to imagine anyone running into them. They are usually so lit up at night you'd think it was an amusement park ride. Her cranes make her look ominous- something to be avoided. There may have been some fog around at 04:30 this moring, but Long Island Sound is pretty wide at that end, and they should have been able to hear her coming and get out of the way. I would not think she'd be traveling too fast, especially if there was any fog and with traffic in the sound as heavy (even at that hour) as it often is. Tide may have been starting to go against them at that hour though, so they may have been trying to get through the Race quickly. Sorry that the accident happened, and that someone died because of it.
We were out on Sunday observing the Barkald from a few hundred feet away as she loaded coal into a barge alongside. Would have thought her length closer to 800 feet , but she was riding fairly high as she was obviously almost empty. It is hard to imagine anyone running into them. They are usually so lit up at night you'd think it was an amusement park ride. Her cranes make her look ominous- something to be avoided. There may have been some fog around at 04:30 this moring, but Long Island Sound is pretty wide at that end, and they should have been able to hear her coming and get out of the way. I would not think she'd be traveling too fast, especially if there was any fog and with traffic in the sound as heavy (even at that hour) as it often is. Tide may have been starting to go against them at that hour though, so they may have been trying to get through the Race quickly. Sorry that the accident happened, and that someone died because of it.
Easy, Easy
Easy, Tonyb's post implied that larger vessels had some kind of official right of way over everybody, which is not technically true, so for education's sake it was worth pointing out. We can only go by what people say here since we don't know what their credentials are unless they tell us. (I'm not a registered captain myself, for full disclosure's sake!) I've included a link to today's version of the story. It casts things in a rather different light--it appears, if I'm reading the story correctly, that the true number of people on board was more than 3 and that the numbers and names of passengers have been kept secret because it was some kind of exclusive luxury cruise--does anyone else read it that way? If that's true, it's poor practice by the police and press to cover up vital facts. I wonder if the Coast Guard is going to be told all the facts about who was on board? And why is this such a big secret anyway?
Easy, Tonyb's post implied that larger vessels had some kind of official right of way over everybody, which is not technically true, so for education's sake it was worth pointing out. We can only go by what people say here since we don't know what their credentials are unless they tell us. (I'm not a registered captain myself, for full disclosure's sake!) I've included a link to today's version of the story. It casts things in a rather different light--it appears, if I'm reading the story correctly, that the true number of people on board was more than 3 and that the numbers and names of passengers have been kept secret because it was some kind of exclusive luxury cruise--does anyone else read it that way? If that's true, it's poor practice by the police and press to cover up vital facts. I wonder if the Coast Guard is going to be told all the facts about who was on board? And why is this such a big secret anyway?
my bad,
...I got thrown off by the phrase about how "The Coast Guard would not release the names of the people on board". It seems from the rest of the article that there were only 3 crew on board and no unnamed passengers. The lack of forthcoming from the Coast Guard side is kind of untypical for them, but we'll see what shakes loose in the coming days...
...I got thrown off by the phrase about how "The Coast Guard would not release the names of the people on board". It seems from the rest of the article that there were only 3 crew on board and no unnamed passengers. The lack of forthcoming from the Coast Guard side is kind of untypical for them, but we'll see what shakes loose in the coming days...
I agree with the Physics
A large object can't change speed or direction as easily as a small object. Also that when a large object collides with a small object the small object suffers the most. Assuming comparable makeup of the objects. But there is technically no "right of way" and each captain is obligated to try and avoid an accident. As the Exxon Valdez demonstrated you are not competant just because you are the captain of a large ship. Amd the rock that he hit wasn't moving and was well charted!!!! I try to stay out of the way of larger objects especially 18 wheelers as they travel at 80 mph through Birmingham on I 65. The large coal barges on the Tennessee river are a lot easier to avoid.
A large object can't change speed or direction as easily as a small object. Also that when a large object collides with a small object the small object suffers the most. Assuming comparable makeup of the objects. But there is technically no "right of way" and each captain is obligated to try and avoid an accident. As the Exxon Valdez demonstrated you are not competant just because you are the captain of a large ship. Amd the rock that he hit wasn't moving and was well charted!!!! I try to stay out of the way of larger objects especially 18 wheelers as they travel at 80 mph through Birmingham on I 65. The large coal barges on the Tennessee river are a lot easier to avoid.
RICH, Im not implyimg....I'm stating fact
Dont have the RULES OF THE ROAD handy, but smaller vessels MUST yield to larger vessels. I think this rule may apply when a 92 foot sailboat takes on a The 49,000-ton vessel. Contrary to popular belief, about the only thing a sailboat has the right away over is a similar sized power boat. So, RICH, if the QE II is in your way, think real hard about who has the maneuverability and right away. Also RICH, dont be so paranoid about the police and CG covering up facts. They are actually doing their duty by not speculating until all the facts are in. Also, of a general nature, lawsuits will be involved and attorneys dont like any information to be released.
Dont have the RULES OF THE ROAD handy, but smaller vessels MUST yield to larger vessels. I think this rule may apply when a 92 foot sailboat takes on a The 49,000-ton vessel. Contrary to popular belief, about the only thing a sailboat has the right away over is a similar sized power boat. So, RICH, if the QE II is in your way, think real hard about who has the maneuverability and right away. Also RICH, dont be so paranoid about the police and CG covering up facts. They are actually doing their duty by not speculating until all the facts are in. Also, of a general nature, lawsuits will be involved and attorneys dont like any information to be released.
Fault finding
I really don't like to assume fault until the facts are in. None of us on this board know anything much. I would absolutely stay out of the way of a giant ship. But I can also conjure up lots of ways it could have been at fault -- improper lights, not maintaining a watch, maneuvering in a way opposite that which it signalled. Heck, they may have been talking on the radio for all we know. I am old enough to remember the ocllision of the Andrea Doria and the Stockholm many years ago -- two transatlantic liners that collided even though both had radar, had people on watch and were aware of each other. People make mistakes in big ships and small. But the small boat always loses in a collision. For a description of the gorgeous yacht that was sunk, see the attached website.
I really don't like to assume fault until the facts are in. None of us on this board know anything much. I would absolutely stay out of the way of a giant ship. But I can also conjure up lots of ways it could have been at fault -- improper lights, not maintaining a watch, maneuvering in a way opposite that which it signalled. Heck, they may have been talking on the radio for all we know. I am old enough to remember the ocllision of the Andrea Doria and the Stockholm many years ago -- two transatlantic liners that collided even though both had radar, had people on watch and were aware of each other. People make mistakes in big ships and small. But the small boat always loses in a collision. For a description of the gorgeous yacht that was sunk, see the attached website.
Right of way?
Doesn't rule concerning "sail over power" explicitly exclude power vessels of limited maneuverability? I'll think you'll find that it does. So, the sailboat was probably 'officially' at fault here. Don't use the sail over power rule, for example, to assume that the Queen Mary will change course and avoid you. From a more practical standpoint, a coal freighter isn't going to turn on a dime like, say, a 17' speedboat - especially if laden. If you're sailing, you'd be crazy to regard yourself as the stand-on vessel. Even a 92 footer can tack and get out of the way - assuming that they've seen the freighter. And getting out of the way is exactly the prudent thing to do when confronted with a large, heavy, ungainly vessel with massive momentum. It is a sad story, though - and close to home for me too, since I also sail those waters. Dick
Doesn't rule concerning "sail over power" explicitly exclude power vessels of limited maneuverability? I'll think you'll find that it does. So, the sailboat was probably 'officially' at fault here. Don't use the sail over power rule, for example, to assume that the Queen Mary will change course and avoid you. From a more practical standpoint, a coal freighter isn't going to turn on a dime like, say, a 17' speedboat - especially if laden. If you're sailing, you'd be crazy to regard yourself as the stand-on vessel. Even a 92 footer can tack and get out of the way - assuming that they've seen the freighter. And getting out of the way is exactly the prudent thing to do when confronted with a large, heavy, ungainly vessel with massive momentum. It is a sad story, though - and close to home for me too, since I also sail those waters. Dick
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