I ran aground a few weeks ago. No fun at all I can tell you. Boat US came to get us ungrounded. The boat they brought was too small to move us straight off from the bow so a rope was tied to the jib halyard and the boat was pulled over on its side to lift the keel out of the sand. In the process, our rudder broke and a good bit of additional damage was done with the end result that we had to be towed about 25 miles to the nearest marina with haul out capabilities. The bill came to over $2 grand. Here's my question: my insurance company says that their liabilty is limited to 5% of the boat's replacement value (although I can't find that in the policy anywhere). That covers less than half the towing bill. I have full towing coverage with Boat US but they say that it was a salvage rather than a tow. However, it would not have been a salvage if they had brought a properly equipped boat to pull us out in the first place. All the damage occured during what amounted to an intentional capsizing. Any thoughts/experience on getting them to pay up (or am I stuck with the bill)? Thanks.
Towing Insurance / Boat US
- Thread starter T Clark
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Finger Pointing Time
Typical finger pointing. The fact that you were grounded may qualify it as a salvage operation, rather than a tow. Your boat insurance should cover the damage to the boat, since it was an incident that required a "salvage" operation. I would think that they would cover the salvage operation to some extent as well (maybe that's the 5%). The technique employed to ungrounded the boat seems to be correct (done it myself once), they just screwed up and caused further damage. The tow company may have some liability, but let your insurance company go after them. The rules and regulations about "salvage" operations are funny. I think they were originally drafted by Pirates in the Carribean. Check through your policy and get your insurance company to belly up to the bar on this one. Best of luck.
Typical finger pointing. The fact that you were grounded may qualify it as a salvage operation, rather than a tow. Your boat insurance should cover the damage to the boat, since it was an incident that required a "salvage" operation. I would think that they would cover the salvage operation to some extent as well (maybe that's the 5%). The technique employed to ungrounded the boat seems to be correct (done it myself once), they just screwed up and caused further damage. The tow company may have some liability, but let your insurance company go after them. The rules and regulations about "salvage" operations are funny. I think they were originally drafted by Pirates in the Carribean. Check through your policy and get your insurance company to belly up to the bar on this one. Best of luck.
Talk to a maritime lawyer
The legal difference between towing and salvage involves whether or not the boat was in imminent peril. It doesn't sound like you were. Also Boat US towers are required to inform the customer if their services fall under "salvage" rather than "tow" services. Sounds like your guy didn't. Look at the Boat US website link for more info on Boat US towing services, and how the contracted tower must adhere to them. Sounds like you may have a case against your tower, based on what you explained. A lawyer conversant with maritime law can review all the facts, and both the Boat US Towing contract and your insurance policy and advise your options. Good luck!
The legal difference between towing and salvage involves whether or not the boat was in imminent peril. It doesn't sound like you were. Also Boat US towers are required to inform the customer if their services fall under "salvage" rather than "tow" services. Sounds like your guy didn't. Look at the Boat US website link for more info on Boat US towing services, and how the contracted tower must adhere to them. Sounds like you may have a case against your tower, based on what you explained. A lawyer conversant with maritime law can review all the facts, and both the Boat US Towing contract and your insurance policy and advise your options. Good luck!
Keep us posted....
Maritime laws are truly archaic and not logical to many of us. I too would suggest that you talk to a maritime lawyer in this case if the numbers start to add up. Do some research here at HOW and on the web re tow v. salvage. It's a pretty grey area. There are several unusual(?) circumstances here based on your story: 1. The tow company may have made matters worse. However, given that their initial tow boat wouldn't pull you off, that may indicate a "hard" rather than "soft" grounding, which would indicate salvage over a simple tow. But the fact that they may have caused further damage in the process is an unusual twist. Of course, proving they caused the damage will be hard - your word against theirs. 2. Who is your insurance carrier? If it's Boat/US that will be an interesting turn, i.e., tower and insurer are offered by the same organization, Boat US. Please keep us posted on how this progresses.
Maritime laws are truly archaic and not logical to many of us. I too would suggest that you talk to a maritime lawyer in this case if the numbers start to add up. Do some research here at HOW and on the web re tow v. salvage. It's a pretty grey area. There are several unusual(?) circumstances here based on your story: 1. The tow company may have made matters worse. However, given that their initial tow boat wouldn't pull you off, that may indicate a "hard" rather than "soft" grounding, which would indicate salvage over a simple tow. But the fact that they may have caused further damage in the process is an unusual twist. Of course, proving they caused the damage will be hard - your word against theirs. 2. Who is your insurance carrier? If it's Boat/US that will be an interesting turn, i.e., tower and insurer are offered by the same organization, Boat US. Please keep us posted on how this progresses.
Towing/Salvage
Sounds like you got someone who was either not very bright or not too interested in your best interest. I ran aground over by Ft.Pike in the Rigoles in Dec. My boat was sitting in 1 1/2 ft. of water, and draws 4 1/2ft. Got towed off by the St.Tammany sherrifs dept. Came out one day and told me he could get me off, but may damage the boat. He recommended waiting for some more water in there. Next day with a couple more ft. of water we puller her off. No damage, no problem. No fees. The sheriff's guy, named Jeff, was a very knowledgable, very concerned individual. I have nothing but praise for him. Not sure about the legalities in your case, but someone should bear the burden other than yourself.
Sounds like you got someone who was either not very bright or not too interested in your best interest. I ran aground over by Ft.Pike in the Rigoles in Dec. My boat was sitting in 1 1/2 ft. of water, and draws 4 1/2ft. Got towed off by the St.Tammany sherrifs dept. Came out one day and told me he could get me off, but may damage the boat. He recommended waiting for some more water in there. Next day with a couple more ft. of water we puller her off. No damage, no problem. No fees. The sheriff's guy, named Jeff, was a very knowledgable, very concerned individual. I have nothing but praise for him. Not sure about the legalities in your case, but someone should bear the burden other than yourself.
If in Canada I would take this to small claims
This seems like the perfect case for small claims court. I would research the "salvage" aspect of the case and see if you are better off under the tow boats policy if they claim "it was a salvage job." If I were fighting this case, I'd make a weak and vague opening introduction in front of the lawyer (you want to trap the tow guys into making statements they will latter regret), especially if you go first. So for example, if you're hoping the tow guys claim "salvage" don't mention this concept in any of your opening remarks. Pretend you a choir in the church. Any choir will tell you, if the piece they sing has a few mistakes in it, but they have a strong "closing;" people perceive their singing in a better light, after the piece. Same with arguing in court, it doesn't hurt to have a weak opening argument, as long as you have a strong closing summation. I am not a lawyer, but I do argue my cases in court, speaking of which, I'll be doing tomorrow in Sooke BC.
This seems like the perfect case for small claims court. I would research the "salvage" aspect of the case and see if you are better off under the tow boats policy if they claim "it was a salvage job." If I were fighting this case, I'd make a weak and vague opening introduction in front of the lawyer (you want to trap the tow guys into making statements they will latter regret), especially if you go first. So for example, if you're hoping the tow guys claim "salvage" don't mention this concept in any of your opening remarks. Pretend you a choir in the church. Any choir will tell you, if the piece they sing has a few mistakes in it, but they have a strong "closing;" people perceive their singing in a better light, after the piece. Same with arguing in court, it doesn't hurt to have a weak opening argument, as long as you have a strong closing summation. I am not a lawyer, but I do argue my cases in court, speaking of which, I'll be doing tomorrow in Sooke BC.
Thanks
Thanks for the suggestions. I have a friend who's a maritime lawyer, so maybe it's time to call in a favor. Had a similar situation to Nice-n-Easy in that the tide was due to peak in about two hours. If I knew then what I know now....
Thanks for the suggestions. I have a friend who's a maritime lawyer, so maybe it's time to call in a favor. Had a similar situation to Nice-n-Easy in that the tide was due to peak in about two hours. If I knew then what I know now....
I think the 5% is your deductable
I think I have a 2-3% deductable. The insurance pays for the damage over 5% of your agreed hull value. If the tow people are at fault, your insurance company will pay you what is owed, less your deductable and then "go after" the tow Co. for reimbursement. If this happens, your insurance will also (should) include your deductable in their demand and then reimburse you anything collected. I have no opinion as to whether tow guys have fault.
I think I have a 2-3% deductable. The insurance pays for the damage over 5% of your agreed hull value. If the tow people are at fault, your insurance company will pay you what is owed, less your deductable and then "go after" the tow Co. for reimbursement. If this happens, your insurance will also (should) include your deductable in their demand and then reimburse you anything collected. I have no opinion as to whether tow guys have fault.
Tow Company?
Out of curiosity, which towing company pulled you off? Was it Boat US, or Sea Tow? I had an unfortunate experience with a tow captain with Sea Tow. My steering assembly broke on my Coronado 35 right before I pulled into the slip. I called the tow company to pull me into the slip. They boat out, and he had me pull anchor while he tied me off. As he fiddled around to get me tied off, we were drifting towards the docks on the othe rend of the bayou. I alerted him to it, and he said it wouldn't be a problem. We drifted closer, and finally I jumped off my boat onto the dock to try to fend us off. Didn't work, but we didn't hit hard, just scuffed the boat up a little. It's a 34 year old boat, so I wasn't too wrried about one more scuff mark. He got me tied off, and we took off toward my slip. As we got close, he tried to gude me into the slip area, and couldn't (he should have tied off amidships, but I wasn't going to kibbitz, he was in charge). He then said he would have to just tie me off at the t-head at the end of the dock. The rudder was stuck hard to port, and as he towed me (he towed astern, instead of tying amidships), my boat pulled over to the side. During all of this, my wife came up to tell me there was a lot of water in the cabin. I told her that unless it was more than ankle deep, it would have to wait. One emergency at a time. So, tow-boat captain is gunning his power boat for all it's worth, pulling me to the t-head, and my boat is going further and further to port. He starts to head for the t-head, and it's pretty apparent to me that if he keeps that heading, he'll pull up nicely parallel to the t-head, and I'll e headed for one of the occupied slips, since I'm gong far to the port side. I point that out to him, and ask if maybe we should slow down, and he should pull me further to starboard. He says it's under control. It wasn't. He pulled up the doc, I pulled up on top of another boat. Again, no damage, but I'm pissed by now. Tow-boat captain says "Did you hit it", my response was "hell yes I hit it. Pull further to starboard, and keep it under a knot - NO steerage over my rudder, then you can get me to the pier". At this point, I didn't care who was in charge, it was apparent the guy didn't know what he was doing. He takes my adivce, except right before he gets to the dock he speeds up, so I get to kiss a dock one more time, but it wasn't hard this time. Didn't much matter, I was ticked, but I headed below to check on the water coming in, and told my wife to settle up with the guy. I really didn't want to deal with him. I went below, and found that the hose over the entry point for the prop shaft had come loose. I pushed it on far enough to stem the water flow, 10 minutes to pump the water (it was ankle deep by this time) enough to see what I needed to do, and about 20 minutes to get it on properly. By this time, she's paid the guy, and he's gone. I ask her how much it cost. She said $220. I thought I was going to go ballistic. $220 to move us 50 feet???!!!! To add insult to injury, I STILL wasn't in my slip!! I called the franchise owner, and and told him the situation, and complained. He said the tow-captain said the wind was too strong to get my boat in the slip. He said he would send another boat if I wanted, but that boat would have to come from further away. He would credit back the $220, but the charges for the other boat would total between $400 and $500. I declined. I called the previous owner of my boat, and told him the situation, and that I needed to move my boat. He brought his 8' dingy with a 2.5 hp motor, and he and I and two other volunteers moved the boat into my slip. Amazing. Anyway, to be fair to Sea Tow, I called the franchise owner, and expressed my disappointment at the price, and the problems with the tow captain. After discussing it, I told him I thought a fair compromise would be to no-charge me for the $112 it would cost to sign up with Sea Tow. He agreed. I think it was a fair compromise. I also told him that I felt his tow-captain needed more training. He didn't comment (probably for liability reasons). I wonder if T Clark and I may have gotten the same tow-captain. By the way, since that time, I've gotten my captain's license with sail and tow endorsements. Just about everything the guy did was wrong. Instinct told me that at the time, training confirmed it.
Out of curiosity, which towing company pulled you off? Was it Boat US, or Sea Tow? I had an unfortunate experience with a tow captain with Sea Tow. My steering assembly broke on my Coronado 35 right before I pulled into the slip. I called the tow company to pull me into the slip. They boat out, and he had me pull anchor while he tied me off. As he fiddled around to get me tied off, we were drifting towards the docks on the othe rend of the bayou. I alerted him to it, and he said it wouldn't be a problem. We drifted closer, and finally I jumped off my boat onto the dock to try to fend us off. Didn't work, but we didn't hit hard, just scuffed the boat up a little. It's a 34 year old boat, so I wasn't too wrried about one more scuff mark. He got me tied off, and we took off toward my slip. As we got close, he tried to gude me into the slip area, and couldn't (he should have tied off amidships, but I wasn't going to kibbitz, he was in charge). He then said he would have to just tie me off at the t-head at the end of the dock. The rudder was stuck hard to port, and as he towed me (he towed astern, instead of tying amidships), my boat pulled over to the side. During all of this, my wife came up to tell me there was a lot of water in the cabin. I told her that unless it was more than ankle deep, it would have to wait. One emergency at a time. So, tow-boat captain is gunning his power boat for all it's worth, pulling me to the t-head, and my boat is going further and further to port. He starts to head for the t-head, and it's pretty apparent to me that if he keeps that heading, he'll pull up nicely parallel to the t-head, and I'll e headed for one of the occupied slips, since I'm gong far to the port side. I point that out to him, and ask if maybe we should slow down, and he should pull me further to starboard. He says it's under control. It wasn't. He pulled up the doc, I pulled up on top of another boat. Again, no damage, but I'm pissed by now. Tow-boat captain says "Did you hit it", my response was "hell yes I hit it. Pull further to starboard, and keep it under a knot - NO steerage over my rudder, then you can get me to the pier". At this point, I didn't care who was in charge, it was apparent the guy didn't know what he was doing. He takes my adivce, except right before he gets to the dock he speeds up, so I get to kiss a dock one more time, but it wasn't hard this time. Didn't much matter, I was ticked, but I headed below to check on the water coming in, and told my wife to settle up with the guy. I really didn't want to deal with him. I went below, and found that the hose over the entry point for the prop shaft had come loose. I pushed it on far enough to stem the water flow, 10 minutes to pump the water (it was ankle deep by this time) enough to see what I needed to do, and about 20 minutes to get it on properly. By this time, she's paid the guy, and he's gone. I ask her how much it cost. She said $220. I thought I was going to go ballistic. $220 to move us 50 feet???!!!! To add insult to injury, I STILL wasn't in my slip!! I called the franchise owner, and and told him the situation, and complained. He said the tow-captain said the wind was too strong to get my boat in the slip. He said he would send another boat if I wanted, but that boat would have to come from further away. He would credit back the $220, but the charges for the other boat would total between $400 and $500. I declined. I called the previous owner of my boat, and told him the situation, and that I needed to move my boat. He brought his 8' dingy with a 2.5 hp motor, and he and I and two other volunteers moved the boat into my slip. Amazing. Anyway, to be fair to Sea Tow, I called the franchise owner, and expressed my disappointment at the price, and the problems with the tow captain. After discussing it, I told him I thought a fair compromise would be to no-charge me for the $112 it would cost to sign up with Sea Tow. He agreed. I think it was a fair compromise. I also told him that I felt his tow-captain needed more training. He didn't comment (probably for liability reasons). I wonder if T Clark and I may have gotten the same tow-captain. By the way, since that time, I've gotten my captain's license with sail and tow endorsements. Just about everything the guy did was wrong. Instinct told me that at the time, training confirmed it.
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