Topping Lift and light air sailing

[Newell]

Don,

Have you had occasion to use the topping lift in light air sailing? It seems there are several theories about how to best shape the mainsail to take advantage of light air (under 5 mph). First I hear 'loosen the chord of the sail, make it baggier to get more lift. Then I hear 'tighten the chord since light air will detach more easily and needs the tighter chord to stay attached.' Now I am in a discussion that claims the topping lift can be used to increase twist so that light air can be engaged at the top of the sail. I usually think of using twist to dump air to keep the boat on it's feet.

"You set the twist or lack of twist with the lift and the mainsheet will control the boom angle to the centerline of the boat. I used it without the 3:1 block for a while but wanted to be able to lift the boom up against the tight mainsheet with a little more force at times. As you tension them against each other the boom moves toward the centerline of the boat. without pulling the twist out of the leach." by Bob (without permission)

I find light air sailing demands close attention to many things and there are variables that each size of boat need to pay more or less attention too. So one answer never seems to work as well for everyone. :neutral:

 

[jimg]

Topping Lift

In my view, the topping lift is there to hold up the boom when the sail is not doing it. It is not a sail trim device. Use it when you are reefing and when you are raising or lowering the sail, other than that it should be slack.

 

[Don12364]

I use very light tell tales made of the lightest ripstop spinnaker material, 1/2" wide and 8" long in three places down the mid chord of the sail. A dark colour so I can see the leeward ones through the mainsail. Cut strips using a hot knife from cloth offcuts scrounged from a local sailmaker. I simply stick these to the sail with 1½" diameter self adhesive plastic disks I cut out from sheet Fablon.
These, together with the leach tell tales are a good indicator of whether I have the draft set right and the boom height okay.
Works at all windspeeds too - and yes, one can get them all flying simultaneously.

 

[Jackdaw]

What you REALLY want is a rigid vang.

Does what you are looking for without the constant adjustment and/or getting in the way of the leech.

 

[Squidd]

I'd have to say I'm in the jimg camp on TL use, but I may try the "baggy sail in light air" approach next time I'm out to see if there is a difference on my boat...

 

[Don Guillette]

Newell: I don't know why the following works but I'll bet RichH and Joe from San Diego can give a scientific explanation. First of all, the topping lift is not a sail trim control. It's main function is to hold up the boom when the sail is flaked.

This happened before I installed a Grahauer rigid vang. It was a very light wind day in Long Beach, Ca. After raising the main and rolling out the jib I got distracted before I unhooked the topping lift. I was in no big rush anyway. Before I unhooked the topping lift I noticed the sail looked like it was driving but I couldn't figure out why so I let it be for a while. Then I decided to unhool the topping lift and when I did the sail pooped out on me. So I hooked up the topping lift and the sail picked up. I figured I was on to something and in very light conditions I left the topping lift hooked up.

When I installed the rigid vang I set it up so that when the boom was resting on the springs the boom was about 10 degrees above horizontal. So when I left the dock in lite air I was set for those conditions and then I'd go from there as conditions warranted..

 

[Joe]

An old argument resurfaces! Is it a sail trim control or not? In my opinion, the topping lift is, in function, in partnership with the vang........ whose purpose is to hold the boom in a desired position. The soft vang prevents the boom from rising, the TL keeps it from dropping when the lack of air robs the main of its lifting ability.

The rigid vang combines the two functions..... so you don't need a soft vang or a topping lift....

So... if you're trying to attain a specific sail shape in light air that requires the help of a Topping Lift..... then I guess you could call it a sail trim device. But I see it as very, very limited in it's use as such, and therefore wouldn't consider it sail SHAPING tool.... just something that holds the boom up because the mainsail is beginning to stretch out.

 

[RichH]

Agree with Joe ... especially in 'light' winds the topping lift counteracts the weight/mass of the boom and is therefore a sail shape/trim control during that 'light' wind condition. The topping lift in 'light' winds 'opens' the 'curve' of the leech; without this upwards force by the topping lift the leech is usually 'closed' (hooked up towards weather) and the sail is 'less twisted' than what the sailmaker intended.

If booms were 'weightless', then during light winds you wouldnt need to employ the topping lift. But, booms do have mass and therefore need to be counterforced by the topping lift or the sail shape is distorted due to the mass of the boom ... the heavier or massive weight, the more 'up' force provided by the topping lift.

The use of a rigid vang, takes the boom weight issue entirely out of the equation as its sooooo easy to set up a sail to it geometric/shape parameters ... when it comes to sail shape, especially the shape and 'twist' of the leech.

If you 'follow' what the full set of tell tales are 'telling' you, many times the only correction needed is to apply a bit of topping lift pressure (or slightly ease the rigid vang) to get 'perfect flow'.
Normally to get 'best' flow, when beating in normal conditions the 'key' indicator is the leech tell tale at the second from the top batten and that batten aft end is close to parallel to the boats centerline ... in 'real light' winds its usually the third from the top batten with its aft end parallel to the centerline and its tell tale streaming 'perfectly'. .... all other trim/shape adjustments should be made from this 'starting point': aft end of the #2 (#3 in light winds) batten parallel to the centerline and the leech tale flying 'perfect'. You use topping lift 'up' pressure in 'light' winds; or, when in normal conditions not over-tensioning the mainsheet to do this.

This 'starting point' was related to me by the great Buddy Melges way back in the late 60s when he was at the very top of the game ... and I soon found out during later discussions with many of the AC boat folks that almost all of them too were doing the exact same in their initial set ups.
From these folks I also learned that FLAT sails work best in 'light' conditions; you start with board flat sails, make your adjustments to get all the tell tales perfectly streaming .... and THEN .... decrease the outhaul, etc. tension until you get maximum speed (speedo) out of the boat, etc. With GPS that has 'velocity made good to a distant waypoint' - VMG function; today you set up for maximum VMG AND the getting max. out of the speedo. There is less vulnerability to a 'separation stall' (windflow becoming detached from the sails) with 'flat' sails in 'light' conditions.
Bagged-out sails with excess draft are for slow speed 'power' sailing ('low gear') - example: powering through steep 'chop' or big/high waves.

 

[Wanderer138]

I agree with Joe and RichH. I'm more interested in what something actually does to keep the boat moving than what it's theoretically supposed to do. I know I'm not the only one who sits on the leeward cockpit coaming in light air to heel the boat and help set sail shape. Wouldn't that make your...uuhhh...weight a sail-shaping control? Absolutely.

 

[Cayennita]

Start with flat sail as described by Rich. With the boat heeled to leeward and weight forward, any breeze will be used to propel the boat and not to shape the sail and then move the boat. Weight forward to lift the stern and reduce wetted surface. Less drag. Might want to move traveler to windward. Open slot with genoa.

 

[Piratenorm]

What about a Boom Kicker?

As a novice I am eating up this thread. Thank you. The fact my boat came out of the water for the winter last Saturday makes this painful as I'd love to be out trying it now!
My question is, what would the installation of a boom kicker accomplish? It eliminates the need for topping lift but do I still need a vang, rigid or otherwise as well? Does the installation of a rigid vang mean I can do without the topping lift and a boom kicker?
Thanks all.
Norm

 

[shnool]

Light air is a bear... and the Topping lift if you don't have a boom kicker or rigid vang, works in conjunction with the boom vang (or jack) to keep the draft where you want it.

The objective is to negate the weight of the boom on the sail shape (in light air).

I find that with the topping lift set correctly in light air along with the vang just snugged up, the boom doesn't flop with motorboat wakes (as much). That (in conjunction) with traveler, and mainsheet, and if necessary a preventer, I can keep sail shape consistent when the winds aren't nearly enough to keep the shape. Also when this happens and you are getting waked (usually during a race), it helps to foot off considerably. You don't want to try to pinch a winward leg while surfing moto-wakes in 3-4mph winds (it doesn't work).

I totally agree, a rigid vang, or boom kicker is infinitely better for these conditions than a topping lift, but it works if it's all you got. Also, keep in mind the rigid vang, or boom kicker should not be relied upon solely to support the boom while at dock, the TL is best for this as it better handles the load should you fall on or lean on the boom.

 

[Don Guillette]

Re: What about a Boom Kicker?

Piratenorm: Yes, the installation a rigid vang means you don't need the topping kift or a boom kicker. The boom kicker would be redundant. Check out the Garahuer rigid vang, which is a perfect match for you C30 and it's simple to install. Well it's not that easy but many of us here, including me, have installed them and can make the job easy for you. The fact that your boat is on land and probably doesn't have the mainsail attached make the job a whole lot easier.

 

[Piratenorm]

Mucho thanks Don, one upgrade, coming up. And I will be seeking help later. The mast is down as it forms the backbone to the cover, but come spring, before all sheets are on, it'll be tackled.
Now I did ask this in an earlier forum. With my own back and neck issues needing me to seek an easier way, I had thought of attaching a branch from the split-backstay to the davits to help support them so I may hang the dinghy with the motor still attached, negating the need to haul the motor off and support it from the pushpit. Even with a motor crane it is a bitch of a job on my Catalina 30 Mk 1. I was told NO in no uncertain terms. But the dinghy + motor weigh not a lot more than the boom does, which currently is supported by the topping lift. Any thoughts now? Naturally the davits have their own supports, are cross-braced and with additional braces leading forward to deck-mounted padeyes. I did over-engineer the install. Any thoughts?

 

[Don Guillette]

Norm:: It probably wouldn't hurt but I don't think it's a good idea, plus it would look crappy. My davit system was set up so I could remove it easily. It had to be that way because the marina people in Long Beach, Ca would come around and measure the boats frequently and charge for any extra footage they found. When they did measure me I just removed the davits and asked for a remeasurement. Then I waited a bit for the heat to die down and re-installed them. Obviously, I got to know the marina guy who measured boats. One day he told me the gig was getting old and that I could keep them on the boat as he would consider them "temporary". Sounded reasonable to me.

Since the davit bases were just sitting on the transom I needed a way to secure them and what I used was "U" bolts fastened to the pulpit railing. I had a 12' hard bottom and my system worked just fine. Sometimes, if I was lazy, I left the motor attached and still never had a problem.

As an aside - attaching and removing the motor to the dingy when it was in the water was a big pain to me. A couple of times I almost dropped the motor in the water. The toughest part was stepping from the dingy to the boarding ladder. How I solved the problem was with the use of the boom. The outboard had a lifting strap. I attched a small soft vang to the end of the boom and pushed the boom over the side of the boat. I used the boom as a crane. Thats how I installed and removed the motor. My Garhauer rigid vang easily supported the weight but I did have Garhauer upgrade the springs -- the new springs looked like something off of a 64 Chevy P/U. Not eaxactly but close.

 

[Piratenorm]

Your response to marina's constant search for additional fees had me smiling. I love creative rule interpretation. I used to do it when racing cars, long before I became a sailor. If you do it, and you get caught, just say that's how you interpreted the rules. If you don't get caught, well, is it cheating? lol.
I'll take a pass on the topping lift/davit scenario. There is probably room to put additional supports somewhere, maybe incorporated into a swim platform I plan to install. Or down from the framework of the bimini. Thanks again for the advice on the rigid vang.
Norm