We've all experienced the adrenalin rush... you get hit by a gust of wind; your boat heels a bit, accelerates to hull speed, maybe slices through some chop spraying water over the deck. A real yee-hah. But then maybe the gust freshens, and your boat heels even more. You have to brace your leg against the leeward cockpit seat. Below decks all hell breaks loose as anything not tightly secured is flying around the cabin. In the cockpit the crew has a look of anxiety on their faces and perhaps a harsh word is spoken. With the unbalanced wetted surface of the hull, your boat is trying to round up into the wind, and you're fighting the weather helm with an increasingly inefficient rudder whose drag is now actually slowing your boat. At what point does your boat get too tippy-- 20 or 25 or 30 degrees of heel? Do you have an inclinometer to measure or do you gauge the heel by feel? William F. Buckley's wife reportedly taped a sign at the 20 degree mark on their boat that said " Mrs. Buckley steps off here." Do you have a "deal" with your crew that you'll keep the heel below a certain point? What's the first thing you adjust on your boat to get back on the level? Share your thoughts on heel then vote in the Quick Quiz at the bottom of the home page. (Quiz by Gary Wyngarden)
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Heel Angle
Some call the inclometer a fun meter. The higher it goes, the more fun. For some. Anyway, reading this forum, I thought for sure it was HEAL. That goes along with: their for there or they're and my favorite: your for you're (Hi, Don!). Many '-challenged, to say nothing of the CAPITAL challenged. Basic answer: the flatter the boat sails, in most cases, the better it goes. Of course, I know we'll get some heet on this, so neber mynd, it doesn't matter what it's called because that's what I cawl it. Have great fun with this one, should be as much fun as Catalina vs. O'Day! (or was that Porche vs Audi?) As someone recently said, "Bring 'Em On." DUH...... *sry Stu
Some call the inclometer a fun meter. The higher it goes, the more fun. For some. Anyway, reading this forum, I thought for sure it was HEAL. That goes along with: their for there or they're and my favorite: your for you're (Hi, Don!). Many '-challenged, to say nothing of the CAPITAL challenged. Basic answer: the flatter the boat sails, in most cases, the better it goes. Of course, I know we'll get some heet on this, so neber mynd, it doesn't matter what it's called because that's what I cawl it. Have great fun with this one, should be as much fun as Catalina vs. O'Day! (or was that Porche vs Audi?) As someone recently said, "Bring 'Em On." DUH...... *sry Stu
We're Tilting!
While I don't much mind, and even prefer, a moderate amount of heel (perhaps between 20 and 25 degrees) I keep in mind that the majority of the sailing I do is not for the adrenalin rush, but rather for family cruising. As a result, I can certainly relate to Mrs. Buckley's experience in so far as the first time I experienced a slight amount of heel with my wife aboard (10 to 15 degrees), I was treated to her voice shouting above the wind of "WE'RE TILTING, WE'RE TILTING!" Certainly, to make the ride more comfortable (for both of us) I eased out the main sheet, which has since become the one line on the boat from which my wife is seldom out of reach. "Smooth sailing" has taken on a new meaning since that early experience some 4 years ago.
While I don't much mind, and even prefer, a moderate amount of heel (perhaps between 20 and 25 degrees) I keep in mind that the majority of the sailing I do is not for the adrenalin rush, but rather for family cruising. As a result, I can certainly relate to Mrs. Buckley's experience in so far as the first time I experienced a slight amount of heel with my wife aboard (10 to 15 degrees), I was treated to her voice shouting above the wind of "WE'RE TILTING, WE'RE TILTING!" Certainly, to make the ride more comfortable (for both of us) I eased out the main sheet, which has since become the one line on the boat from which my wife is seldom out of reach. "Smooth sailing" has taken on a new meaning since that early experience some 4 years ago.
25 degrees............
is about as much as my little Pearson 26 and I and wife can handle however I do recall many years ago on a 550 foot Navy freighter (USS Charleston LKA-113)in the South China Sea in 25 foot seas taking blue water over the bow and rolling 27 degrees. I was strapped into my seat on the bridge, the TV down on the mess deck fell on Louie, and half the crew was tied in their racks. Don't ever want to do that again!!!!!!! David
is about as much as my little Pearson 26 and I and wife can handle however I do recall many years ago on a 550 foot Navy freighter (USS Charleston LKA-113)in the South China Sea in 25 foot seas taking blue water over the bow and rolling 27 degrees. I was strapped into my seat on the bridge, the TV down on the mess deck fell on Louie, and half the crew was tied in their racks. Don't ever want to do that again!!!!!!! David
Too much is too slow...
... my cat 27 likes about 15 deg or so... so do I. I used to think it was cool to be rail down, but the boat didn't go any faster and it was harder to control.... no point, you see. I've had it over too far a few times, it scares the be jeezes out of the passengerss and makes a mess down below. I am prone to use the traveller more than the mainsheet for adjusting heel or playing the puffs.
... my cat 27 likes about 15 deg or so... so do I. I used to think it was cool to be rail down, but the boat didn't go any faster and it was harder to control.... no point, you see. I've had it over too far a few times, it scares the be jeezes out of the passengerss and makes a mess down below. I am prone to use the traveller more than the mainsheet for adjusting heel or playing the puffs.
25 degrees is lots
We have a '77 H25 and I have found in my limited experience that 20 degrees is where the boat seems to settle in and 25 degrees is where the admiral draws the line. We've had the rails in the water a couple of times, but that was not intentional. I find keeping the jib winched in tight and using the main sheet is the best way to control heel on my boat, of course your point of sail a great factor in this as well. Craig S/V Wind Toy 1977 H25
We have a '77 H25 and I have found in my limited experience that 20 degrees is where the boat seems to settle in and 25 degrees is where the admiral draws the line. We've had the rails in the water a couple of times, but that was not intentional. I find keeping the jib winched in tight and using the main sheet is the best way to control heel on my boat, of course your point of sail a great factor in this as well. Craig S/V Wind Toy 1977 H25
no more than about 20
It certainly feels faster to heel over more, but I've watched my speedometer (GPS) and have noticed that at 15-20 degrees I'm moving at close to 6 knots, hull speed. Heeling over farther may get me another couple of tenths, but not enough to justify the strain on the boat and me. (I don't race; if I was I might feel differently about that last tenth of a knot!) I start to feel like I'm going to fall over the lee side rail. And there is also the fact that this past summer was my first summer sailing a keel boat, and it took a few dozen trips before I could trust that keel to bring the mast back up again. And my wife, who had only been on a sailboat once or twice before ours, took a little longer.
It certainly feels faster to heel over more, but I've watched my speedometer (GPS) and have noticed that at 15-20 degrees I'm moving at close to 6 knots, hull speed. Heeling over farther may get me another couple of tenths, but not enough to justify the strain on the boat and me. (I don't race; if I was I might feel differently about that last tenth of a knot!) I start to feel like I'm going to fall over the lee side rail. And there is also the fact that this past summer was my first summer sailing a keel boat, and it took a few dozen trips before I could trust that keel to bring the mast back up again. And my wife, who had only been on a sailboat once or twice before ours, took a little longer.
One of the advantages
of having a traveler is that after easing it to control heel, you can quickly bring it back to its original setting. This is more difficult when using the mainsheet to control heel. An interesting observation about the period of conversion from sail to steam powered boats: the big schooners and square-riggers were considered more comfortable for an ocean voyage because once they heeled a little to the breeze, they 'took a set' and didn't roll nearly as much as a steamer.
of having a traveler is that after easing it to control heel, you can quickly bring it back to its original setting. This is more difficult when using the mainsheet to control heel. An interesting observation about the period of conversion from sail to steam powered boats: the big schooners and square-riggers were considered more comfortable for an ocean voyage because once they heeled a little to the breeze, they 'took a set' and didn't roll nearly as much as a steamer.
different reactions
One daughter loves to heel and has been known to sit on the lee rail with her hair in the water having a great time. The other daughter gets white knuckles at anything over 5 degrees. Both sons don't seem to care but like to go fast. My wife likes the rail in the water. I know that it is usually better to keep a boat upright but it does feel faster with some heel. A friend and I spent one enjoyable afternoon seeing who could get the most water into the cockpit of his Macgregor 25. But isn't there something about overhangs and increasing waterline length and thus theoretical speed by heeling??? Maybe keep a short fat boat on it's feet but a long slender boat with overhangs does better with more heel??? Weather helm comes from asymetrical change in wetted surface?? But a properly designed boat can(should?) remain symetrical and not develope a weather helm?? My old Mac 26 developed a severe weather helm but our Pearson 323 doesn't seem to mind heeling as much.
One daughter loves to heel and has been known to sit on the lee rail with her hair in the water having a great time. The other daughter gets white knuckles at anything over 5 degrees. Both sons don't seem to care but like to go fast. My wife likes the rail in the water. I know that it is usually better to keep a boat upright but it does feel faster with some heel. A friend and I spent one enjoyable afternoon seeing who could get the most water into the cockpit of his Macgregor 25. But isn't there something about overhangs and increasing waterline length and thus theoretical speed by heeling??? Maybe keep a short fat boat on it's feet but a long slender boat with overhangs does better with more heel??? Weather helm comes from asymetrical change in wetted surface?? But a properly designed boat can(should?) remain symetrical and not develope a weather helm?? My old Mac 26 developed a severe weather helm but our Pearson 323 doesn't seem to mind heeling as much.
Re: Too much heel
It always feels alot worse than it is. My wife has a slightly lower heel tolerance than I do. One of our first investments this summer for our 22 Capri "simplicity" was a clinometer, a simple but interesting tool as we found out. Whenever my wife protested and insisted that we were heeling at nearly 45 degrees, a quick check of the meter revealed a reality of maybe 15-20 degrees at most. This helped her relax and enjoy sailing a bit more. In the end, the simple clinometer was one of the most worthwhile expenditures of the summer!
It always feels alot worse than it is. My wife has a slightly lower heel tolerance than I do. One of our first investments this summer for our 22 Capri "simplicity" was a clinometer, a simple but interesting tool as we found out. Whenever my wife protested and insisted that we were heeling at nearly 45 degrees, a quick check of the meter revealed a reality of maybe 15-20 degrees at most. This helped her relax and enjoy sailing a bit more. In the end, the simple clinometer was one of the most worthwhile expenditures of the summer!
toom much for boat--or crew?
My Catalina 22 sails well with the lee rail nearly down (4" freeboard) and will sit there quite happily--sometimes the crew is not happy like that esp. if the winds are gusty and she rounds up or you have to dump the mains'l in a hurry. I'd say 15 degrees, most modern hull designs like to be sailed flat. Happy boat, happy crew, not so hard on the rigging.
My Catalina 22 sails well with the lee rail nearly down (4" freeboard) and will sit there quite happily--sometimes the crew is not happy like that esp. if the winds are gusty and she rounds up or you have to dump the mains'l in a hurry. I'd say 15 degrees, most modern hull designs like to be sailed flat. Happy boat, happy crew, not so hard on the rigging.
fearless
My crew pouts if I can't get "Miss Snooty", my 25 foot 1977 Hunter, up at 25 to 30 degrees. They call it "walking the dog". I accomodate them whenever I can... which on a 44,000 acre pond happens on one trip out of five. The last time I managed to perform for them was late at night a few weeks back under a full lunar eclipse. What a rush.
My crew pouts if I can't get "Miss Snooty", my 25 foot 1977 Hunter, up at 25 to 30 degrees. They call it "walking the dog". I accomodate them whenever I can... which on a 44,000 acre pond happens on one trip out of five. The last time I managed to perform for them was late at night a few weeks back under a full lunar eclipse. What a rush.
Flatter is faster
10 to 15 degrees is all you want for efficient sailing to weather. If you get more in fresh wind, go down a size in jib or reef the main. Why stress the rig and the crew for worse performance?
10 to 15 degrees is all you want for efficient sailing to weather. If you get more in fresh wind, go down a size in jib or reef the main. Why stress the rig and the crew for worse performance?
Heel Angle
Being a new boat owner, Mac 25 and new to sailing an experienced sailing friend and my crew went out on a Sunday morning with winds at 12-19 mph and gust to 25 mph on a lake. I wanted to know what my boat was capable of doing and I was also getting some sailing lessions. We had the rail in the water numerous times that day. Once, the mast was about 2 feet off of the water. What a rush. For normal sailing, 10-20 degrees is better on everyone aboard.
Being a new boat owner, Mac 25 and new to sailing an experienced sailing friend and my crew went out on a Sunday morning with winds at 12-19 mph and gust to 25 mph on a lake. I wanted to know what my boat was capable of doing and I was also getting some sailing lessions. We had the rail in the water numerous times that day. Once, the mast was about 2 feet off of the water. What a rush. For normal sailing, 10-20 degrees is better on everyone aboard.
How do you spell "exciting"
Got a "cruising" friend who, regardless of wind speed, puts up all the sail he's got on his Pearson 30, and when the rails are in the water he starts serving drinks and snacks. To him, this is exciting - must improve his digestion to eat at 45+ degrees of heel. On our H25.5, which we race alot, at the knotmeter we've found the boat sails fastest at 15-20 degrees. Above this we start losing speed. We have "dual" clinometers for easy reading on either tack, and my rule for traveler trimming is that range. Yeah, we've had the rails in the water, and water coming up on the deck, but we spell "exciting" f-a-s-t.
Got a "cruising" friend who, regardless of wind speed, puts up all the sail he's got on his Pearson 30, and when the rails are in the water he starts serving drinks and snacks. To him, this is exciting - must improve his digestion to eat at 45+ degrees of heel. On our H25.5, which we race alot, at the knotmeter we've found the boat sails fastest at 15-20 degrees. Above this we start losing speed. We have "dual" clinometers for easy reading on either tack, and my rule for traveler trimming is that range. Yeah, we've had the rails in the water, and water coming up on the deck, but we spell "exciting" f-a-s-t.
Whats too tipsy from perf.& stress pt.of view
In general, can you comment on what inclination puts X amount of stress on a boat, in general terms. Ditto for performance. X amount of weather helm, actually slows you down (or maybe the answer is any) as opposed to leaving sail up and countering weather helm in gusts.
In general, can you comment on what inclination puts X amount of stress on a boat, in general terms. Ditto for performance. X amount of weather helm, actually slows you down (or maybe the answer is any) as opposed to leaving sail up and countering weather helm in gusts.
"The Look"
When I'm sailing by myself, which is rare, I judge the amount of tilt I pursue (winds allowing) by how much I want to rearrange things in the cabin. But when I'm with my wife, I lay the boat over until I get "the look": that unmistakable, silent expression which bespeaks a mix of anxiety, irritation, and exasperation. Put into words it means, "You know I hate it when the boat tips like this and I know you can control it and make it stop and if you ever want me to come sailing with you again you will FIX IT IMMEDIATELY!!!"
When I'm sailing by myself, which is rare, I judge the amount of tilt I pursue (winds allowing) by how much I want to rearrange things in the cabin. But when I'm with my wife, I lay the boat over until I get "the look": that unmistakable, silent expression which bespeaks a mix of anxiety, irritation, and exasperation. Put into words it means, "You know I hate it when the boat tips like this and I know you can control it and make it stop and if you ever want me to come sailing with you again you will FIX IT IMMEDIATELY!!!"
Comfort Level
I know that the boat is heeling too far when the wife dumps air out of the main without consulting me, and she is usually smarter than I am. If I argue....then I get "the look" mentioned in earlier post.
I know that the boat is heeling too far when the wife dumps air out of the main without consulting me, and she is usually smarter than I am. If I argue....then I get "the look" mentioned in earlier post.
heel to be faster when its flat
In the big waves flat is fast - put in a reef. When its flat (bay racing), my 34 will do over 9 knots in a 15 - 20 kt beam wind and 20 - 25 degrees heel. just watch out for the round up in a gust.
In the big waves flat is fast - put in a reef. When its flat (bay racing), my 34 will do over 9 knots in a 15 - 20 kt beam wind and 20 - 25 degrees heel. just watch out for the round up in a gust.
fat hulls versus skinny
Without a doubt a fat hull will lose performance after a certain amount of heel. Anyone with a narrow hull with overhangs??? I would thnk that a Pearson 28 or Alberg design would perform differently than a Catalina 30. With a Catalina 30 the rail is 3'? above the water. On a Pearson 28 the rail is maybe 1' above the water. A Beneteau 235 with it's plumb bow a zero overhang would probably gain nothing by heeling.
Without a doubt a fat hull will lose performance after a certain amount of heel. Anyone with a narrow hull with overhangs??? I would thnk that a Pearson 28 or Alberg design would perform differently than a Catalina 30. With a Catalina 30 the rail is 3'? above the water. On a Pearson 28 the rail is maybe 1' above the water. A Beneteau 235 with it's plumb bow a zero overhang would probably gain nothing by heeling.
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