Too tippy?

[Jennie]

Different strokes for different folks

I am a thrill seeker and enjoy sailing in challenging weather. I have set aside my thrill seeking for time to sail with family and friends because heeling over 20-25 degrees is uncomfortable for them. When I have the opportunity to sail with my thrill seeking friends, we set out with big smiles! Sailing is a passion and no matter what the conditions, I am usually game. But scaring my loved ones is not my kind of fun. Sailing fast is my main goal, so keeping the boat upright is very important.

 

[Mac Smith]

42% to 45% is scary to me

I like 20% to 30%, once the toe rail is in the water, I get excited, but then the gust puts my toe rail underwater, at 45% and I know I have missed my chance to reef, and release the sails, and then begin reefing. Afterwards, I go down below and restack all contents not broken.Sometimes the heeling really affects my crew!

 

[Kenneth Frehm]

Hard On the Wind

I love to go fast as I can and have as much fun as I can doing it! When the white caps are on the lake, I’m a sailing! I try to hit hull speed (or higher) with whatever combo of sails we’ve set. Too much heeling is when she rounds up (more than once). Or when the speedo sensor (which is right next to the centerboard) comes out of the water! Then dropping the amount of canvas flying is the next on the agenda. We try to set the proper sail combination at the outset but the weather has a habit of changing real fast on our Lake Oneida.  Going to weather, I don’t pop the main (if at all possible) but head her up into the “no-go” zone until the gust is manageable and then fall off. I find it’s a lot easier to keep her balanced using the tiller vs. the mainsheet. Abracadabra (25’ MacGregor) doesn’t have a traveler but fortunately I have a number of sail combos available. I can fly my Genny, or a 120% which can reef to 90% or a high weather 65% jib. The main has two reef points and can be flattened using the halyard and outhauls. I’ve only had to use the 2nd reef a few times in the last 20 years! When we go to the 2nd reef on the main, the wind is howling! Being a fractional rig, if necessary, she can sail with the main sail only. A very nice option! Everything in the cabin is stowed and buttoned up before heading out on a brisk day!  I don’t race her so if the hull speed drops a tad, who cares? Isn’t sailing the balancing of a lot of forces and having fun doing it? Safety is always a prime concern and of course we moderate the heeling when “woosies” or children are aboard. We don’t want to sour them to the sailing experience. It would be like bringing a newbie skier up to the black diamond run on the top of the mountain…:{.  I’ll try to attach a photo ~ showing Abracadabra on a beat, inclinometer almost at 30 degrees and approaching 6 point something knots. The small jib is flying and the first reef is in the main. The bigger jib is showing in the cabin (which we just pulled off)! As you can see, there aren’t a lot of white caps on the lake - just some lumpy waves! Also you can’t see all the smiles on the faces of the captain and crew….:} After reading so many of these posts, I’m convinced I have the best wife ! She doesn’t sail, ski or motorcycle!

 

[Steve Smith]

You aren't sailing if...

you aren’t heeling. That’s what I try to explain to my wife, who doesn’t like to lean (heel) more than 15 Degrees. The problem is; my 34’ Pearson performs best with 10 to 15 knot winds (typical of Eastern Lake Ontario) and heeling over about 25º. People who own, or have been on a sailboat this size, know that 25º of heel does not put the rail in the water and is not uncomfortable. This drives me out of my skull (typical male I guess) to try and maintain 10 - 15º of heel (which gives me about 4 knots), when I could be sailing along at 6.5 knots. Here’s the kicker, my wife is an engineer and understands the physics of sailing. She also understands that with a ton of lead in the keel, the boat won’t tip over. She’s open to suggestions to get over her discomfort. We are even thinking of trying a hypnotist.

 

[Tim Long]

Is 45 degrees even possible?

On my boat, heeling beyond 30 degrees is going to bury the rail, take on water and create drag. I suppose it depends on your hull design. The speed is best at 15-20, so that's where I keep it.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Boat Design & Wheel Tiller Death Grips

DonThanks for the thought.I'm not sure boat design has as much to do with it as how the boat is sailed.I marvel at the repeated comments many who report of higher wind conditions or gusts, where, first, they roll in the jib, and only later reef the mainsail. The main makes you heel a lot more than the jib. Reef the MAIN first. You can sail on jib alone to reduce heeling significantly. We do it a lot of the times when in cruising mode (in adition to being too relaxed to bother taking the danged mainsail cover off, and then having to put it back on!).One of the other things to consider is "Who's Driving?" As noted a few times in this thread, those who have the wheel or tiller have a much better feeling of being in control, regardless of the heeling angle. It's simple, let other folks hlm the boat and half of the "Oh I'm gonna die!" issues will go away. (Yeah, yeah, yeah, it DID take me what seems to be, in retropct, eons to stop being a Captn. Bligh. Guys, we ALL can do it, because it's basically a sense of insecurity coming out the mouth the WRONG way at the WRONG audience!)There arn't too many boats, at least in the lake, bay and coastal cruising areas that we experience, that are gonna go belly up.The more they heel, the less wind's on the sails, they pop right up, or, as good ones do, like our Catalinas (and others) they head up into the wind.The trick is that there is no difference between sailing when racing or cruising. Don Gillette has it right! Sail it right, don't over canvas, and you ALL will have a lot more fun.Stu

 

[John Spooner]

The "Soggy Buns" Sail

Back some years ago when I sailed my Venture 21 on one of the Finger Lakes, I used to have a level guage by the cocpit, and I would warn passengers to watch it. If the heel was 5-10 degrees, I would say it was a "comfortable sail,"if 15, a bit more exciting but still comfortable, if 20, much more exciting, if 25, all excitement, if 30 degrees, forget the comfort and prepare for the "soggy buns sail," because that's what you'd get if she went to 35 degrees. That simply meant that water would come over the lee side into the cocpit and I would have to ease the sail back up so she would recover. Most of my guests were good sports about it, and one minister friend of mine even started singing, "Nearer My God To Thee" as his rear end became soggier. Now that I have a Catalina 22, I think she could go almost to 35 without taking water, but I haven't tried it yet.

 

[Mark Mahrenholz]

8" below toe rail is eneough- shorten sail

discomfort any anxiety are not my idea of fun

 

[R. J. Foley]

Bury it!

It all depends on the boat. My Bristol 32 was easy to bury the toe rail and would hold a course quite easily. My O'Day 28 is something else. Because of the beam on this boat, it is a little harder to bury the rail and maintain a good course. Usually the weather helm take over at about 30 degrees. My bride feels that there is too much heel and sail when she slides from windward to leeward.

 

[Tom s/v GAIA]

We have a lancer 28T very tender but if ---

the foot of the jib is dry, we where not pushin hard enough!!!! Tom s/v GAIA

 

[Andy]

Second slosh over the rail

When trying out our first boat, aa O'day daysailer II, my girlfriend (Captain Swiftypants) put the starbaord rail in the drink twice. I immediately started shopping for our second boat--something with a heavy lead bottom.

 

[S. Sauer]

Sail Ballance

On our '86 deep draft 28.5 we have a standard 110 Jib, a 135% Genoa, a 155% Genoa, plus a loose footed main with two reef points. We try to select the 'right' combination for the wind speed when we hoist the Jib or Genoa, but sometime conditions change and we need to depower whatever sail combination is up. By flattening the main and tightening the boom vang, we can 'vang sheet' or drop the traveler in gusts and keep her on her feet. That usually means sailing at no more than 25 degrees where she carves thru the water like a destroyer and has just a slight touch of weather helm (about 5 degrees) to point a little higher. However if you leave the outhaul a little forward and have too much belly in the main she will drag the rudder thru the water with more than one spoke of weather helm and much more pressure on the rudder - translates as SLOW. So sailing slower at 25-30 degrees or more heel is harder on the rudder, and more uncomfortable for either my wife or me to steer as well even if she doesn't round up in gusts. Of course the beamy, wider hull form will not sail at the 40-45 degree heel some describe in this thread.

 

[Dennis Bidney]

only way to sail

This is how I like it. The H25 seems to like it too.

 

[Rob]

Rookie Too

Yeah, I heeled a bit too much this summer (my first as a sailor) too. First, I buried the mast of my S-14 day sailor. We flipped. The winds were calm, then suddenly violent. I remeber thinking, maybe I should take down one of the sails, then BOOM! We were in the lake. We had no chance of righting since we were in 12ft of water and the mast was stuck in the bottom of the lake. So, I guess we heeled 100%. My O'day, however, is another story. Haven't flipped her yet, thank God, but if winds blow in like they did that day of the S-14 episode, I'll be trying to let that main out ASAP!

 

[Brian]

Women like you

I an so tired of women talking about are testosterone its are testosterone that built the sail boat an went into the water in the 1st place.No need to thank us just a kind word once in awile thank you.

 

[Alan]

What's all the fuss about heel??

If the heel increases for whatever reason and your not happy with it, why not lower the traveller? It's fast and very easy to do and the boat will come right up on its feet again. We're talking about sail boats, they are designed to 'lean over'. It's your job, as a sailor, to control the amount and shape of the sails and angle of attack. If you don't understand how, then get Don's book on 'Sail Trim' and learn.

 

[Tom S.]

Too much heel slows my boat down (and most boats)

My C36 is optimal at about 15-20 degs. Anymore than that and the hydrodynamics are slowing the boat down. By leveling my boat and not over powering it and getting too much heel I was able to attain an 8.3-8.5 Knots steady speed (thru the water) with a max of 8.98 knots. And that was not surfing. And waterline is only a little more than 30 feet.It is very hard for me to have my rail in the water....I think I need a spinakker up and do a partial broach to do that.

 

[Neil Braun]

I guess I am very lucky....

My girlfriend has a very simple rule:No small craft advisory, no sailing.As far as she is concerned the toe rail MUST be under or all we are doing is sitting in the sun and cooking, I think this is a wonderful point of view, even if we are not going as fast as we could be it FEELS like we are hauling ass and that to her is the main thing.Basicly NOAA is my buddey, in key west there is almost always a small craft advisory.A couple of weeks ago we were out under full sail in 20 knot wind and were passing reefed catamarans like they were standing still, made me feel nice to pass one of these guys. In lighter wind they can blow our doors off...My boat has narrow beam and a nice rudder that stays well in the water till we are getting water in the cockpit at which point we slow down a noticeable amount....Personaly I like everything about sailing, I like gliding along silently in light air and I like roring along in a gale with spray blasting me in the face.When I actualy am going somewhere I tend to let the sails out a bit to reduce the heel some, and thus speed up, if I am just out for the fun of it bombing around like a lunitic is a blast.My girlfriend is the greatest person in the world as far as I am concerned and the fact that she loves rough (ahem) sailing is wonderfullits all a mater of what you are trying to do, and what your boat can take.Cheers,Neil

 

[Mike Dumont]

Wine Glass Gage

When we first started sailing, my wife used to set a wine glass (half full) in the cockpit. If the glass moved or spilled any wine we were heeling too much. She is much more tolerant now! However, I still get that look of concern now and then which tells me I need to head up a bit.

 

[Jack]

Hey Tom S

Nice pic! The Wind Instr shows 3.0 kts of wind. Do you recall what the wind speed was when you were hitting 8.98 kts of boat speed? What point of sail? Very cool that you got that speed!I remember one day this past summer, I was getting 5 kts of boat speed from 10-12 kts of wind. Everything felt "just right."Jacks/v FriendshipC350, #80