The Expert's answer doesn't go well with me. If you get into a situation that you are sailing with a new to you boat downwind, and want to reef in 30 knots, and you have to be afraid that you broach the boat (this was the situation, right?), you have forgotten several things before this happens. 1. The wind rarely ever picks up to 30 knots all of a sudden, unless it is a gust. So, more likely, you waited much too long to shorten sails in time. Common mistake, happened to me too. At our sailing school, we used to say: "Reefing is not a city in China!" Keep this in mind, always! 2. Jibing unreefed to head into the wind at 30 knots is out of the question. "Chicken jibe" or not. My suggestion: a) Keep the boom where it is. b)Roll in the jib so it is just big enough to support you sailing upwind.c) Wait for a lull in the wind and turn the boat so that you are broadside to the wind just after a wave has passed under you. This will help to keep the boat upright while turning. Don't turn too quickly, if you can, because the gravitational force will promote more heeling.d) Sheet in to close-hauled, ease the main until the mainsail has almost no pressure anymore, stay close-hauled with the jib alone, and reef. This is a stable position, even for a light boat in strong winds and you can lower the main without broadsiding. Any questions? Lee
To reef in 30 knots driving downwind?
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Somehow I get the feeling that REEF is a four
word for many people. As such it is to be avoided at all times. Six horse power pushes my boat at 5.5 to 6 kts. That 6 hp can come from my cast iron jib or from my Dacron jib. That is all the power that I can use and I get that at about 10-12 knots of wind. The power in the wind increases as to the square of the velosity so that at 15 kts the power of the wind is 2.25 times the power on the wind at 10 kts. That is time to reef! I can't use more power and will only stress the boat to try. In the example above the 30 kts the wind will be 9 times as powerful as at ten knots.
word for many people. As such it is to be avoided at all times. Six horse power pushes my boat at 5.5 to 6 kts. That 6 hp can come from my cast iron jib or from my Dacron jib. That is all the power that I can use and I get that at about 10-12 knots of wind. The power in the wind increases as to the square of the velosity so that at 15 kts the power of the wind is 2.25 times the power on the wind at 10 kts. That is time to reef! I can't use more power and will only stress the boat to try. In the example above the 30 kts the wind will be 9 times as powerful as at ten knots.
Reluctance to Reef
Reefing is like work!!!! To add insult to injury usually when I do sit down my beer and reef the wind drops. Before the next beer I have to get back up there and let out the reef. This has happened too many times!!! If the forcast is for higher winds all day I reef before leaving the dock or raising the anchor. A lot less drama that way. Since we have roller furling if 30 knots caught me unexpectedly my first action would probably be to roll up the jib. This always calms things down a lot on my boat. Depending upon the location I'd try to duck into a cove or behind an island or point and reef there. If in the open I'd rig a preventer to make sure the boom was under control and then start the engine and head up into the wind then do the reef. A preventer really helps as a boom flopping around in high wind and waves is dangerous. Actually we almost always rig a preventer when we have significant waves and not just for the accidental jibe. Between the traveler and a preventer I can get better sail a better sail shape. I rig my preventer to the bail where the mainsheet attaches.
Reefing is like work!!!! To add insult to injury usually when I do sit down my beer and reef the wind drops. Before the next beer I have to get back up there and let out the reef. This has happened too many times!!! If the forcast is for higher winds all day I reef before leaving the dock or raising the anchor. A lot less drama that way. Since we have roller furling if 30 knots caught me unexpectedly my first action would probably be to roll up the jib. This always calms things down a lot on my boat. Depending upon the location I'd try to duck into a cove or behind an island or point and reef there. If in the open I'd rig a preventer to make sure the boom was under control and then start the engine and head up into the wind then do the reef. A preventer really helps as a boom flopping around in high wind and waves is dangerous. Actually we almost always rig a preventer when we have significant waves and not just for the accidental jibe. Between the traveler and a preventer I can get better sail a better sail shape. I rig my preventer to the bail where the mainsheet attaches.
Did this last summer
I'm not sure who "the Expert" is, but we had a similar situation develop last summer. We were crossing the Strait of Georgia (about 20 miles of open water) with small craft warnings out. As the wind built we were gradually shortening sail--a first reef in the main, roll up some genny, and then when the apparent wind hit 20 knots with us on a broad reach at 8.3 knots of boat speed, I decided to put a second reef in the main. We didn't change course. I eased off the main halyard about two feet and secured it, then winched in the second reef line (we have a single-line reefing system) to get the mainsail off the shrouds. I then eased the halyard another couple of feet, secured it and winched in the reef line repeating this process until I was down to the second reef point. We never lost a lick of boat speed. The apparent wind topped out at a steady 23 knots with us off the wind at 8.3 knots of boat speed, but completely in control. It was a real yee-hah of a sail. Coming up into the wind to reef in those conditions is asking for trouble in my opinion. It's made easier on our boat by the single-line reefing and Harken bat-cars. Gary Wyngarden S/V Wanderlust h37.5
I'm not sure who "the Expert" is, but we had a similar situation develop last summer. We were crossing the Strait of Georgia (about 20 miles of open water) with small craft warnings out. As the wind built we were gradually shortening sail--a first reef in the main, roll up some genny, and then when the apparent wind hit 20 knots with us on a broad reach at 8.3 knots of boat speed, I decided to put a second reef in the main. We didn't change course. I eased off the main halyard about two feet and secured it, then winched in the second reef line (we have a single-line reefing system) to get the mainsail off the shrouds. I then eased the halyard another couple of feet, secured it and winched in the reef line repeating this process until I was down to the second reef point. We never lost a lick of boat speed. The apparent wind topped out at a steady 23 knots with us off the wind at 8.3 knots of boat speed, but completely in control. It was a real yee-hah of a sail. Coming up into the wind to reef in those conditions is asking for trouble in my opinion. It's made easier on our boat by the single-line reefing and Harken bat-cars. Gary Wyngarden S/V Wanderlust h37.5
Expert response
The focus of the expert answer was the need to jibe and tricks for accomplishing this. But nothing in the stated question requires jibing. Jibing is simply changing the rail over which the wind comes, with the wind behind you. Unless you are in very tight sea room, all jibing does is leave you facing the exact same issues on the other side of the boat. The key is coming up into the wind, which is done by turning more into the wind, not necessarily jibing. There are a number of ways to do this while minimizing the risk of excessive heel, such as easing out the mainsheet, moving the traveler all the way to windward, furling some genoa, hardening the outhaul, etc. But the jibe maneuver has nothing to do with any of this. The hardest part of heading up into the wind is that the apparent wind will increase.
The focus of the expert answer was the need to jibe and tricks for accomplishing this. But nothing in the stated question requires jibing. Jibing is simply changing the rail over which the wind comes, with the wind behind you. Unless you are in very tight sea room, all jibing does is leave you facing the exact same issues on the other side of the boat. The key is coming up into the wind, which is done by turning more into the wind, not necessarily jibing. There are a number of ways to do this while minimizing the risk of excessive heel, such as easing out the mainsheet, moving the traveler all the way to windward, furling some genoa, hardening the outhaul, etc. But the jibe maneuver has nothing to do with any of this. The hardest part of heading up into the wind is that the apparent wind will increase.
Reefing the hard way
Brings back some 10-year old memories! May/June 1997; Rivendel slowwly approaches Maui, HI, after 30 days at sea (from San Carlos, Sea of Cortez) under very pronounced El Nino conditions: North of us sits a big Pacific Low (instead of the normal Pacific High); NE tradewinds are totally gone; we have been becalmed for more than 50% of the passage; have motored till our diesel fuel was gone (except for a 5 gallon "harbor approach" reserve); and have been trying to catch some wind by sailing from one squall to another (instead of trying to avoid the squalls, as we normally would do). As we approach Maui to within 20 NM or so, we are starting to get into its windshadow since the SW "Kona Express" now dominates the Hawaiian islands, instead of the NE trades. Under flattened, full main (to reduce slatting) and staysail (the genoa won't hold) we are beating VERY slowly closer to our destination, only to be williwawed by a sudden, huge blast from the high mountain range ahead of us. The blast is so strong that the tightly furled genoa even starts peeling off its foil. Heeled on our beams ends and in grave danger of broaching, we have no time to do anything else than to run off under staysail while slacking off, main halyard, mainsheet and boomvang. In a few minutes time we leave most of our hardwon sea estate in our foaming wake . The main is, of course, plastered against the spreaders and I start climbing out of the cockpit with some pieces of of jackline while telling the helmsman (my son Tom) that he cannot afford to jibe or he will instantly become a fatherless child.... First I lash the boom down to avoid being knocked out of the park. Then I pull down the luff of the main far enough to tie in the 3rd-reef luff cringle with the line from the 1st reef. Finally, I slowly wrestle in more of the leech till I am able to tie the 3rd-reef leech cringle to the corresponding reef line. Then I hurry back to the cockpit, winch in the 3rd reef and tighten the main halyard. Then we are ready to come back up into the wind (now settling down into the high 20's) and continue our slow approach to Mauii's North shore. All in all fairly similar to Gary Wyngarden's approach, except with the difference that we did not have our third reef lines installed already (with the full main up our reef lines are just not long enough to do that). Fair winds, Flying Dutchman
Brings back some 10-year old memories! May/June 1997; Rivendel slowwly approaches Maui, HI, after 30 days at sea (from San Carlos, Sea of Cortez) under very pronounced El Nino conditions: North of us sits a big Pacific Low (instead of the normal Pacific High); NE tradewinds are totally gone; we have been becalmed for more than 50% of the passage; have motored till our diesel fuel was gone (except for a 5 gallon "harbor approach" reserve); and have been trying to catch some wind by sailing from one squall to another (instead of trying to avoid the squalls, as we normally would do). As we approach Maui to within 20 NM or so, we are starting to get into its windshadow since the SW "Kona Express" now dominates the Hawaiian islands, instead of the NE trades. Under flattened, full main (to reduce slatting) and staysail (the genoa won't hold) we are beating VERY slowly closer to our destination, only to be williwawed by a sudden, huge blast from the high mountain range ahead of us. The blast is so strong that the tightly furled genoa even starts peeling off its foil. Heeled on our beams ends and in grave danger of broaching, we have no time to do anything else than to run off under staysail while slacking off, main halyard, mainsheet and boomvang. In a few minutes time we leave most of our hardwon sea estate in our foaming wake . The main is, of course, plastered against the spreaders and I start climbing out of the cockpit with some pieces of of jackline while telling the helmsman (my son Tom) that he cannot afford to jibe or he will instantly become a fatherless child.... First I lash the boom down to avoid being knocked out of the park. Then I pull down the luff of the main far enough to tie in the 3rd-reef luff cringle with the line from the 1st reef. Finally, I slowly wrestle in more of the leech till I am able to tie the 3rd-reef leech cringle to the corresponding reef line. Then I hurry back to the cockpit, winch in the 3rd reef and tighten the main halyard. Then we are ready to come back up into the wind (now settling down into the high 20's) and continue our slow approach to Mauii's North shore. All in all fairly similar to Gary Wyngarden's approach, except with the difference that we did not have our third reef lines installed already (with the full main up our reef lines are just not long enough to do that). Fair winds, Flying Dutchman
Experts?
Lotta them around, and many have never even seen 30 + knots. Lee is correct, turn easy face the wind, it will seem hectic but can be accomplished even in breaking seas too. You should never be reefing in 30 + knots unless it is a big yacht and you are ptting in the 'second' reef. Further, unless you are expert with your vessel, or crossing an ocean with a keen eye on conditions; you should always reef before dark, safer for all concerned. If you are in a hurry, buy a ticket on United. Best to all...;-)
Lotta them around, and many have never even seen 30 + knots. Lee is correct, turn easy face the wind, it will seem hectic but can be accomplished even in breaking seas too. You should never be reefing in 30 + knots unless it is a big yacht and you are ptting in the 'second' reef. Further, unless you are expert with your vessel, or crossing an ocean with a keen eye on conditions; you should always reef before dark, safer for all concerned. If you are in a hurry, buy a ticket on United. Best to all...;-)
Traveler Relief
Could you explain the reason moving the traveler all the way to wind ward helps? Doesn't that counter the effect of letting out the main sheet. Thanks
Could you explain the reason moving the traveler all the way to wind ward helps? Doesn't that counter the effect of letting out the main sheet. Thanks
Capt Ron
It sounds cool to make a statement that you should always reef before dark. Do you ever sail in summer??? SOOOOO often on the gulf coast the wind almost dies at night. So does a reefed sail flop less??? Agreed it is safer to do deck work during daylight hours. But sailing all night in 4-7 knots with a reefed main doesn't make much sense either.... unless you are a motor sailer. With many or most of us having roller furling head sails rolling up the headsail is always an option when the wind comes up. Not ideal but sailing all night with a reefed main in mild conditions isn't ideal either. If high winds are expected it would be sensible to reef before the expected conditions occur. But I propose that being able to reef is more important. Practice reefing so that you don't have to think about which line to pull etc etc. Probably the biggest problem the original poster had was lack of familiarity with a new boat. 30 knots is not a big deal to someone familar with their boat and how it handles differing conditions. The ability to deal with changing conditions is essential for sailing. Even sailing in the duck pond at a city park unexpected events can occur.
It sounds cool to make a statement that you should always reef before dark. Do you ever sail in summer??? SOOOOO often on the gulf coast the wind almost dies at night. So does a reefed sail flop less??? Agreed it is safer to do deck work during daylight hours. But sailing all night in 4-7 knots with a reefed main doesn't make much sense either.... unless you are a motor sailer. With many or most of us having roller furling head sails rolling up the headsail is always an option when the wind comes up. Not ideal but sailing all night with a reefed main in mild conditions isn't ideal either. If high winds are expected it would be sensible to reef before the expected conditions occur. But I propose that being able to reef is more important. Practice reefing so that you don't have to think about which line to pull etc etc. Probably the biggest problem the original poster had was lack of familiarity with a new boat. 30 knots is not a big deal to someone familar with their boat and how it handles differing conditions. The ability to deal with changing conditions is essential for sailing. Even sailing in the duck pond at a city park unexpected events can occur.
What I have done
I don't see a need to jibe in order to put in a reef and also, putting that reef in at 30 knots is not that big of a deal and have done it numerous times. These positions have been already stated and I fully agree. Going downwind or on a broad reach and covering any real distance, it is not that uncommen to find you need to reef with winds building. I have run into this many times and found it managable even when single handing. Downwind you are going great and then you begin to realize you have too much sail up. I have just rounded the boat up leaving the main to flog. At this point the jib has been furled in a bit and I allow it to backwind putting me in the hove to position. The motion of the boat, at this point, is usually quite managable even with seas. Put on the my safety harness and ease the main halyard and take my time putting in a good, snug reef. When done, bring the jib over to the other side and fall off and on my way enjoying great downwind sailing in heavy air with good speed.
I don't see a need to jibe in order to put in a reef and also, putting that reef in at 30 knots is not that big of a deal and have done it numerous times. These positions have been already stated and I fully agree. Going downwind or on a broad reach and covering any real distance, it is not that uncommen to find you need to reef with winds building. I have run into this many times and found it managable even when single handing. Downwind you are going great and then you begin to realize you have too much sail up. I have just rounded the boat up leaving the main to flog. At this point the jib has been furled in a bit and I allow it to backwind putting me in the hove to position. The motion of the boat, at this point, is usually quite managable even with seas. Put on the my safety harness and ease the main halyard and take my time putting in a good, snug reef. When done, bring the jib over to the other side and fall off and on my way enjoying great downwind sailing in heavy air with good speed.
Four ways to reef without coming head-to-wind
In 1999 I started a thread discussing and comparing 4 different reefing methods that produced a lot of good discussion (see link). The 4 methods were: 1 - reefing while hove-to 2 - reefing while close-hauled ("fisherman's reef") 3 - reefing while feathering and pinching 4 - downwind reefing None of these methods require coming completely head-to-wind or using the engine to control the bow. Methods 1 and 2 can be used while single-handing, whereas methods 3 and 4 are best performed with the assistance of a helmsperson (or smart autopilot). Higgs just gave a description of the hove-to technique. When using that method it is important to be aware that there is a way of doing that without having to tack through the wind or gybe. Provided one has a small jib or staysail, the trick is to just pull the clew over to the windward side to backwind the headsail (while simultaneously countering the rudder) and then to let it slip to leeward again when one is ready to continue on the same old tack. Gary Wyngarden and I just described how one can reef while sailing downwind, even on a relatively large vessel and in very rough conditions. Not the easiest way, but certainly doable without damaging the sail IMHO, by far the most seamanlike method is reefing while close-hauled, as it never makes the vessel lose steerage, thus becoming a toy of wind and waves. Jeff H told me a few years ago that this is actually a fairly old method, known as "fisherman's reef". I sometimes refer to it as "just pointing the boom into the wind rather than the entire vessel". Once you have learned to use it well, you may always prefer it over the noisy, uncomfortable and ungainly "turning the bows into the wind" technique. Finally, the feathering and pinching method is great fun when helmsperson and crew have honed their collaborative reefing procedure into a smooth routine. It is surprisingly fast and easy. If Nelleke is behind the wheel, we usually chose that method, whereas I go for the "fisherman's reef" if I am on watch and don't want to wake her up. Have fun! Flying Dutchman
In 1999 I started a thread discussing and comparing 4 different reefing methods that produced a lot of good discussion (see link). The 4 methods were: 1 - reefing while hove-to 2 - reefing while close-hauled ("fisherman's reef") 3 - reefing while feathering and pinching 4 - downwind reefing None of these methods require coming completely head-to-wind or using the engine to control the bow. Methods 1 and 2 can be used while single-handing, whereas methods 3 and 4 are best performed with the assistance of a helmsperson (or smart autopilot). Higgs just gave a description of the hove-to technique. When using that method it is important to be aware that there is a way of doing that without having to tack through the wind or gybe. Provided one has a small jib or staysail, the trick is to just pull the clew over to the windward side to backwind the headsail (while simultaneously countering the rudder) and then to let it slip to leeward again when one is ready to continue on the same old tack. Gary Wyngarden and I just described how one can reef while sailing downwind, even on a relatively large vessel and in very rough conditions. Not the easiest way, but certainly doable without damaging the sail IMHO, by far the most seamanlike method is reefing while close-hauled, as it never makes the vessel lose steerage, thus becoming a toy of wind and waves. Jeff H told me a few years ago that this is actually a fairly old method, known as "fisherman's reef". I sometimes refer to it as "just pointing the boom into the wind rather than the entire vessel". Once you have learned to use it well, you may always prefer it over the noisy, uncomfortable and ungainly "turning the bows into the wind" technique. Finally, the feathering and pinching method is great fun when helmsperson and crew have honed their collaborative reefing procedure into a smooth routine. It is surprisingly fast and easy. If Nelleke is behind the wheel, we usually chose that method, whereas I go for the "fisherman's reef" if I am on watch and don't want to wake her up. Have fun! Flying Dutchman
Tom's Gulf
Tom, all, well most, rules are to be broken by a guy with a brain. I have had all flags flying on a down-hill run to Hawaii. Dark, no moon and blasting so that the spray was ghosting the tri=color at the masthead-fly. I did finally reef that one just before dawn, and a good thing too. I only crossed yur Gulf once and it blew pretty good the entire trip, 40ft Endeavor, so didn't have the problem, Whoops supposed to say Issue now hey? I do agree with you in essence and you sound 'reasonable' most folks sailing these days are not reasonable, and want a turn-key performer that gets there real quick, but they cannot even bleed their own injectors... I would keep all flying in those conditions, but then with a green crew, weather coming, or ??? maybe not; it all depends...
Tom, all, well most, rules are to be broken by a guy with a brain. I have had all flags flying on a down-hill run to Hawaii. Dark, no moon and blasting so that the spray was ghosting the tri=color at the masthead-fly. I did finally reef that one just before dawn, and a good thing too. I only crossed yur Gulf once and it blew pretty good the entire trip, 40ft Endeavor, so didn't have the problem, Whoops supposed to say Issue now hey? I do agree with you in essence and you sound 'reasonable' most folks sailing these days are not reasonable, and want a turn-key performer that gets there real quick, but they cannot even bleed their own injectors... I would keep all flying in those conditions, but then with a green crew, weather coming, or ??? maybe not; it all depends...
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