There was a post not long ago about kids dangleing their feet over the bow while under sail. I also alow the kids to do this as they enjoy it very much however my youngest is 11 and MUST wear a vest at all times while on the boat. I have looked all over this net and can't find the laws for N.C. as far as this dangle thing is concerned. Now I am talking about while under sail but I have not heard of any dangle laws even while under power. I want my kids and anyone who wants to dangle to do so if it makes them happy, of course they must hold on to the pulpit or even the life lines. Can anyone shed some lite on these laws for me? I also want to stay within the law. Thanx all Alan
To dangle or not to dangle
- Thread starter porsche
- Start date
- Status
Porsche, This is a situation where Darwin rules.
There are thousands of pictures of meat ballast on racing sailboats and hanging feet off the bow or the weather rail is a matter of a few feet. If the kids know the rules and are protected with life jackets they will be alright. I have always loved to watch little kids explore small controlled risks and have thought the dumbest thing adults ever say is, "Sam be careful. Don't fall." Hell! the very last thing they are planning to do is let go and fall!!!! I tell my grand kids to not get silly and forget where they are.
There are thousands of pictures of meat ballast on racing sailboats and hanging feet off the bow or the weather rail is a matter of a few feet. If the kids know the rules and are protected with life jackets they will be alright. I have always loved to watch little kids explore small controlled risks and have thought the dumbest thing adults ever say is, "Sam be careful. Don't fall." Hell! the very last thing they are planning to do is let go and fall!!!! I tell my grand kids to not get silly and forget where they are.
Contact the agency patroling your area.
In Pa inland waters, the PA Fish and Boat Commission enforces the law. They are the ones that interpret the law. After a run in with our local Officers, I have opened a dialog so that I can discuss questionable areas and how they will interpret it. If you can ask face to face, it helps in a relationship so the those good guys don't always look like bad guys! By the way, the local enforcing officer and I wave as we pass. We both know that we want good boating to be safe and enjoyable. r.w.landau
In Pa inland waters, the PA Fish and Boat Commission enforces the law. They are the ones that interpret the law. After a run in with our local Officers, I have opened a dialog so that I can discuss questionable areas and how they will interpret it. If you can ask face to face, it helps in a relationship so the those good guys don't always look like bad guys! By the way, the local enforcing officer and I wave as we pass. We both know that we want good boating to be safe and enjoyable. r.w.landau
Porsche...
The Maryland DNR cops jumped all over me for dangling my feet through the bow rail when coming back into a marina area after a 90 plus degree day of racing. Seems that it's against the law in MD when under power. Never mind the powerboat towing a 10 year old on a tube in the middle of fast moving boat traffic. "They're recreating," I was told! Use your common sense and keep them back in the cockpit until they're teenagers and can work the foredeck without you having nightmares!
The Maryland DNR cops jumped all over me for dangling my feet through the bow rail when coming back into a marina area after a 90 plus degree day of racing. Seems that it's against the law in MD when under power. Never mind the powerboat towing a 10 year old on a tube in the middle of fast moving boat traffic. "They're recreating," I was told! Use your common sense and keep them back in the cockpit until they're teenagers and can work the foredeck without you having nightmares!
Here in California they class it as a type
of "Careless, reckless, or negligent operation" and as such is a citable offense, probably something similar in most states. The following is from a state safety course: Careless, reckless, or negligent operation It is also the responsibility of the operator to refrain from careless, reckless, or negligent operations on the water. Failure to operate a boat in a safe manner could endanger life, or property of other persons. Again, be courteous and exercise caution. Use common sense. If it doesn’t make sense to do something on land it probably doesn’t make sense to do it on the water. Would you ride on the hood of your car or hang out of the window when underway? Of course not, that wouldn’t be safe. So don’t allow passengers to ride or sit on the bow, stern or sides of the boat while underway. California Boating Regulations California law says no one may operate a boat, water skis, an aquaplane or other vessel in a way that will be dangerous to people and property. Dangerous examples include: Riding on the bow, gunwale or transom of a moving vessel when railings do not protect you. Riding your vessel over the towline of another vessel or its skiers. Steering your vessel between another towing vessel and the skiers or freight it’s towing. Boating while under the influence of drugs or alcohol. Boating around swimmers. Boating too fast in a crowded area, or in thick fog and heavy storms. Speeding in restricted areas, “buzzing” or “wetting down” others, or skiing when or where you’re not allowed. Just don't do it where there's someone to annoy you about it.
of "Careless, reckless, or negligent operation" and as such is a citable offense, probably something similar in most states. The following is from a state safety course: Careless, reckless, or negligent operation It is also the responsibility of the operator to refrain from careless, reckless, or negligent operations on the water. Failure to operate a boat in a safe manner could endanger life, or property of other persons. Again, be courteous and exercise caution. Use common sense. If it doesn’t make sense to do something on land it probably doesn’t make sense to do it on the water. Would you ride on the hood of your car or hang out of the window when underway? Of course not, that wouldn’t be safe. So don’t allow passengers to ride or sit on the bow, stern or sides of the boat while underway. California Boating Regulations California law says no one may operate a boat, water skis, an aquaplane or other vessel in a way that will be dangerous to people and property. Dangerous examples include: Riding on the bow, gunwale or transom of a moving vessel when railings do not protect you. Riding your vessel over the towline of another vessel or its skiers. Steering your vessel between another towing vessel and the skiers or freight it’s towing. Boating while under the influence of drugs or alcohol. Boating around swimmers. Boating too fast in a crowded area, or in thick fog and heavy storms. Speeding in restricted areas, “buzzing” or “wetting down” others, or skiing when or where you’re not allowed. Just don't do it where there's someone to annoy you about it.
I forgot to add
I had forgot to add that people on my boat do not sit on the foredeck or dangle over the sides if the wind is strong or the waves are high it's only on light days and calm waters. But of course I make sure they hold fast and if I feel they are in any danger they come back. Seems when we heel alot or splsh alot every one comes inside anyway. It seems towing a small child at 40 miles per in busy waters is way more dangerous than an 11 year old sitting with a railing to hold on too and moving at 6 knots.I have read the local law about motor boats as far as sitting outside the cockpit while underway but NO where is it written about sailboats. Alan
I had forgot to add that people on my boat do not sit on the foredeck or dangle over the sides if the wind is strong or the waves are high it's only on light days and calm waters. But of course I make sure they hold fast and if I feel they are in any danger they come back. Seems when we heel alot or splsh alot every one comes inside anyway. It seems towing a small child at 40 miles per in busy waters is way more dangerous than an 11 year old sitting with a railing to hold on too and moving at 6 knots.I have read the local law about motor boats as far as sitting outside the cockpit while underway but NO where is it written about sailboats. Alan
Laws vs enforcement
The OH law states that one may not remain in an area not designed for seating (ie the cockpit) except as necessary for the operation of the boat. I've talked to many people who claim that it is enforced in particular areas, but I've never spoken with anyone who actually received a caution or fine. "Sitting, Standing, Walking on Moving Vessels Restricted (ORC 1547.22) No occupant of a vessel underway shall sit, stand, or walk on any area not designed for that movement except when immediately necessary for safe and reasonable navigation or operation. No person shall permit any occupant to violate this section. No person shall operate or permit operation of any vessel in violation of this section."
The OH law states that one may not remain in an area not designed for seating (ie the cockpit) except as necessary for the operation of the boat. I've talked to many people who claim that it is enforced in particular areas, but I've never spoken with anyone who actually received a caution or fine. "Sitting, Standing, Walking on Moving Vessels Restricted (ORC 1547.22) No occupant of a vessel underway shall sit, stand, or walk on any area not designed for that movement except when immediately necessary for safe and reasonable navigation or operation. No person shall permit any occupant to violate this section. No person shall operate or permit operation of any vessel in violation of this section."
Ridiculous!
Riding on the gunwales is normal for almost all sailboats. it is universal to ride on the weather side when the wind is up and the leeward side when the breeze is light. That is standard operating procedure for any sailboat. Another fun activity is flying from a halyard with a bosuns chair and heeling the boat with the passenger dipping into the water. Try it, it's great fun!
You will note that these 'regulations' are very common sense but are geared very much toward power boats. If taken in that context then they make good sense, however a sailboat doesn't present the dangers that the same activity would on a powered vessel.
Riding on the gunwales is normal for almost all sailboats. it is universal to ride on the weather side when the wind is up and the leeward side when the breeze is light. That is standard operating procedure for any sailboat. Another fun activity is flying from a halyard with a bosuns chair and heeling the boat with the passenger dipping into the water. Try it, it's great fun!
You will note that these 'regulations' are very common sense but are geared very much toward power boats. If taken in that context then they make good sense, however a sailboat doesn't present the dangers that the same activity would on a powered vessel.Due to recent fatalities from CO
due to the practice of "teak surfing" on inland lakes all boats with engines are required to post 2 stickers prohibiting the practice. One goes at the helm and another on the transom, I may put them on the dinghy for fun but I'm gonna resist putting the stupid things on my SAILBOAT, how's that for a "common sense" regulation.
due to the practice of "teak surfing" on inland lakes all boats with engines are required to post 2 stickers prohibiting the practice. One goes at the helm and another on the transom, I may put them on the dinghy for fun but I'm gonna resist putting the stupid things on my SAILBOAT, how's that for a "common sense" regulation.
Policy vs reality in MD
While it may in fact be a policy in MD that you are not allowed (I thought I was the captain of the boat) to sit where you please, I have let my boys do it for quite a few years now and have had USCG boats go right by and wave at us. Yes they had their life vest on and yes we where not doing anything dump like waving with a beer in the other hand. It is my opinion that the law is subject to interpretation by the fine folks at the USCG and as long as you appear to have your ducks in a row they have bigger fish to fry.
While it may in fact be a policy in MD that you are not allowed (I thought I was the captain of the boat) to sit where you please, I have let my boys do it for quite a few years now and have had USCG boats go right by and wave at us. Yes they had their life vest on and yes we where not doing anything dump like waving with a beer in the other hand. It is my opinion that the law is subject to interpretation by the fine folks at the USCG and as long as you appear to have your ducks in a row they have bigger fish to fry.
Tom S
I guess one can argue that with a sailboat, moving around and shifting weight is necessary ".....for safe and reasonable navigation or operation". This can be a debatable point, or best left alone when in channels or near power boats. I have never seen a sailboat questioned on this issue, but then again, I have not seen a sailboat flauntingly using this practice in front of the authorities. If you are not flaunting, you will probably get away with it. Best to not try to prove a point. Tony B
I guess one can argue that with a sailboat, moving around and shifting weight is necessary ".....for safe and reasonable navigation or operation". This can be a debatable point, or best left alone when in channels or near power boats. I have never seen a sailboat questioned on this issue, but then again, I have not seen a sailboat flauntingly using this practice in front of the authorities. If you are not flaunting, you will probably get away with it. Best to not try to prove a point. Tony B
Tony B. My point has nothing to do with moving around and shifting weight
Lets say you own a sailboat without an engine or you do not have it turned on. Next lets say we don't have roller furling jib and you have to hank on the jib, or possibly the main halyard is not brought into the cockpit. This would absolutely dictate that one "leave the cockpit" . That means the Ohio regulation (ORC 1547.22 - Sitting, Standing, Walking on Moving Vessels Restricted) is totally irrevalent for a sailboat because there is NO way to properly sail every sailboat and abide by the statute . In other words I suggest that you can't sail a sailboat and NOT be expected to walk, sit or stand on any area on deck.
Lets say you own a sailboat without an engine or you do not have it turned on. Next lets say we don't have roller furling jib and you have to hank on the jib, or possibly the main halyard is not brought into the cockpit. This would absolutely dictate that one "leave the cockpit" . That means the Ohio regulation (ORC 1547.22 - Sitting, Standing, Walking on Moving Vessels Restricted) is totally irrevalent for a sailboat because there is NO way to properly sail every sailboat and abide by the statute . In other words I suggest that you can't sail a sailboat and NOT be expected to walk, sit or stand on any area on deck.
Reefing the Main or Changing Headsails?
I absolutely agree with TOM S., because we feed the foil of each jib or Genoa into a Head foil kneeling at the bow pulpit; we trim the cunningham or loosen the topping lift on the main at the goose neck; and reeing the main requires adjustment at the boom, the goose neck and at the cabintop winches for the main halyard. Why else is there so much non-skid all over the decks of sailboats if the crew isn't going to need to walk all over it? All that a side, our kids learned to sit on the leward rail, with life jackets on and dangle their feet to get splashed by the waves; they've been towed behind the swim ladder while drifting in light airs with a safety line to a stern cleat louped around the life jacket. No one is ever allowed to do any of those fun things under power or under sail in higher winds - and that should be the captain, not to mention the parents judgement, IMHO.
I absolutely agree with TOM S., because we feed the foil of each jib or Genoa into a Head foil kneeling at the bow pulpit; we trim the cunningham or loosen the topping lift on the main at the goose neck; and reeing the main requires adjustment at the boom, the goose neck and at the cabintop winches for the main halyard. Why else is there so much non-skid all over the decks of sailboats if the crew isn't going to need to walk all over it? All that a side, our kids learned to sit on the leward rail, with life jackets on and dangle their feet to get splashed by the waves; they've been towed behind the swim ladder while drifting in light airs with a safety line to a stern cleat louped around the life jacket. No one is ever allowed to do any of those fun things under power or under sail in higher winds - and that should be the captain, not to mention the parents judgement, IMHO.
Tom , I agree with you 100%
If you have to leave the cockpit, then you are 'moving around' to the casual observer, which in most cases is the authorities. From my experience, most of the time the authorities are usually near or in the channel area, and not out where no one or hardly anyone is.
If you have to leave the cockpit, then you are 'moving around' to the casual observer, which in most cases is the authorities. From my experience, most of the time the authorities are usually near or in the channel area, and not out where no one or hardly anyone is.
I guess its a bit different where I am
I sail out of Stamford CT and the Stamford Yacht Club has kids and adults in sailboats crossing the channel in the harbor all the time. They are on the gunwells (sp?) and the fordeck and all over those boats all the time. So the Statute cited above would be useless for sailboats (unless they didn't want us sailing) Now if a small child was sitting on the bow of a small motorboat (not a bow rider) I do think the harbor police would pull them over. I guess I was agreeing with everyone, just pointing out the ludicrous wording of the statute.
I sail out of Stamford CT and the Stamford Yacht Club has kids and adults in sailboats crossing the channel in the harbor all the time. They are on the gunwells (sp?) and the fordeck and all over those boats all the time. So the Statute cited above would be useless for sailboats (unless they didn't want us sailing) Now if a small child was sitting on the bow of a small motorboat (not a bow rider) I do think the harbor police would pull them over. I guess I was agreeing with everyone, just pointing out the ludicrous wording of the statute.
- Status