To bolt or not to bolt? That is the question.

[RON20406]

A safety issue has arisen that combines sea keeping safety with structural intergrity: Should a salon table pedestal base be through-bolted or attached with sizeable woodscrews into the wood substrata? The rub is when running in a sloppy seaway and you are thrown against the table, accidentally, should the table sacrificially collapse en masse as the woodscrews from the base slowly pull out of the wood or is it better that the pedestal shaft bends on impact, if it is through bolted, or the top of the table that is attached with woodscrews pulls off the top of the pedestal? This assumes you have been thrown forcefully without warning or chance of recovery. How many know how their table is secured? Any thoughts? Ron

 

[Rick D]

Solid Mount

...if I were in that condition (I have been) the last thing I would want is for anything I could brace myself on to be a break-away. I appreciate the thought of a sacrificial mounting, but I'd far rather take my chances with something solid, and you have to consider the effect of something large and heavy unsecured in the same seaway that threw you into it. IMHO of course.

 

[Tim R.]

A safety issue has arisen that combines sea keeping safety with structural intergrity: Should a salon table pedestal base be through-bolted or attached with sizeable woodscrews into the wood substrata? The rub is when running in a sloppy seaway and you are thrown against the table, accidentally, should the table sacrificially collapse en masse as the woodscrews from the base slowly pull out of the wood or is it better that the pedestal shaft bends on impact, if it is through bolted, or the top of the table that is attached with woodscrews pulls off the top of the pedestal? This assumes you have been thrown forcefully without warning or chance of recovery. How many know how their table is secured? Any thoughts? Ron

Make the table removable or Install a table that folds up against the bulkhead for stowing when in sloppy seas.

 

[kenn]

Seconding Tim R. If it's not sturdy enough to be a brace/handhold in rough conditions, it should be folded away (securely).

 

[Roger Long]

I love my new cabin table after sailing with it for a season. It's narrow when folded so takes up very little width and flexible for different uses. The full height stanchion makes moving around in a seaway very easy and the rail running all the way forward to the bulkhead protects the cabin heater as well as making a great place to hang dish towels and other things for drying.

The table arrangement is also variable for different cabin situations.

 

[Bill Roosa]

Install more hand holds. I'm with the others, better to have a bruise than a bruise and then have the table flying around the cabin.
I would note that you know you are in a sloppy seaway so you should always have one hand for the boat and one for you!!

 

[sandpiper10471]

I like the table to be absolutely solid. If you were to break a sacrificial one, you would then have many more sharp potential projectiles. The busted table won't lie still.

I wonder how many thousands of us need to rethink our tables as the bases are screwed into the movable, liftable, cabin sole. YIKES!!!!!

Roger - great table design. Not sure how the starboard leaf can be raised without the port one. Also, what is the white insulating material behind the heater?

 

[Stu Jackson]

I think a lot depends on where your table is located.

On our boat, the walkway is off to the port side with the table in a U shaped settee arrangement. The table goes up and down on a piston which is simply screwed into the sole. I've never looked underneath the teak & holly panel it rests on.

I have handholds, very secure ones, all the way from the companionway steps to the forward cabin, each one within reach of the next.

Conversely, on our C25, the table would fold up to the bulkhead, but when it was down it was dangerous.

Each arrangement on each boat is different. I wouldn't care if my table was held down by skyhooks, so far it hasn't gone anywhere. On our old boat, I always put the table up if we were going sailing, and sometimes even if we were just going out puttering around on the engine.

So, the original question of bolting or not is dependent upon the layout of the cabin and the handholds available.

 

[DannyS]

Oh no sandpiper, don't get Roger going again on his hairbrained (read- brilliant!) cabin heater installation again!!!

 

[jibes138]

Roger,
Is the heater safe mounted that close to flammable objects? I thought you needed three feet clearance around the heater from flammable objects? If not then I wonder how much heat you are getting if the heater isn't hot?

 

[Roger Long]

what is the white insulating material behind the heater?

It's a 2 inch thick water tank that the water coil in the heater firebox heats up by gravity convection. It also soaks up heat from the flue. It functions both as a 12 sq. ft. radiator and small amounts of water can be drawn from it through the hot water tap in the head.

Full details on the system here:

http://www.rogerlongboats.com/10Winter.htm

Here is how the hinges are arranged:

 

[Roger Long]

Is the heater safe mounted that close to flammable objects?

The Dickenson is very well shielded and a diesel heater is more predictable than a solid fuel device. If there is bedding on the berth, I set up the lee board to be sure it doesn't fall over onto the heater but the edge of the cushion just barely gets warm. I was toasty warm last fall on a morning with a bit of ice on deck. It's a very good design.

I wouldn't have installed a wood or coal burning heater this close.

 

[Ron20324]

Oh no sandpiper, don't get Roger going again on his hairbrained (read- brilliant!) cabin heater installation again!!!

Too late, Danny... we've been stove-jacked:naughty:

 

[Roger Long]

we've been stove-jacked

Didn't we answer the original question?

I don't think any table even bolted to the floor of the typical fiberglass production boat is going to be strong enough to be safe in a heavy seaway unless the supports take up a lot of foot room. The full height stanchion not only provides a good hand hold, it's easy to make very strong.

The Taco handrail tubing is too flexible in a 6 foot length and could be bent by someone falling against it. I bought thick wall steel tubing that just fit inside it, coated it with epoxy, and slid it into place. I then poured and epoxy plug in each end. The tube was cut about 1/4" shorter than the headroom and the end fittings slid down it. After putting it in place, the fittings were slid up and down and screwed to the floor and over head. It would be a very simple retrofit on most cabin tables.

Great place for someone to show off their fancy rope work skills although I haven't gotten around to that.

 

[RON20406]

Thanks everyone for the well-thought arguments. I have never considered the standard pedestal arrangement to be a seaworthy design for cruising sailors, but rather a concession to the marina sailor for creature comforts while ashore. As with all design features in boats, one has to live with compromises and decide which items have precedence over others. The bulkhead mounted design as Tim and Ken mentioned is defintely superior to the pedestal mounted table, but I find Roger's centerline design with vertical supports from cabin sole to cabintop a viable, secure alternative as it provides both stability for the installation and much needed secure handholds in a seaway. I personally think that if a boat has a pedestal installation and you are not willing to make the change to another design it should be securely through- bolted, as Rick suggests, for greater initial impact resistance and surrounded by viable secure handholds. Next time you're snooping in your bilge, take a look under your pedestals. You just might be surprised? Good sailing, Ron