To all the metalheads out there...

[MrMikey64]

A person I know and I were talking about rerigging a Mac25, and he suggested you could use aluminum sleeves instead of the original copper ones for swaging. Can you? What are the advantages and disadvantages? What are the best ones to use? We were talking about upgrading the rigging to 3/16" 7x19 T304 stainless wire rope.
Those who know metals, whaddya think?

 

[timebandit]

Stainless and aluminum don't like each other much.

A person I know and I were talking about rerigging a Mac25, and he suggested you could use aluminum sleeves instead of the original copper ones for swaging. Can you? What are the advantages and disadvantages? What are the best ones to use? We were talking about upgrading the rigging to 3/16" 7x19 T304 stainless wire rope.
Those who know metals, whaddya think?

 

[Sumner]

Stainless and aluminum don't like each other much.

I agree and I'd recommend 316 over the T304. I just got in a new forestay for the furler and also ordered enough new 316 from these guys...

http://www.riggingonly.com/wire.htm#WIRE

... to re-rig the boat. I also got sleeves and thimbles.....

http://www.riggingonly.com/SHACLES.htm

....from them also. They have good prices, are fast and I like the forestay they made up for us with the swagged on ends. I'll do business with them again.

The 316 is more corrosion resistant than the 304 from what I've read and recommended over the 304 for salt water. Their 316 prices are as good or better than most places I found 304.

Does you boat have 3/16 rigging on it now? Our S forestay was 1/8 and I upped it to 5/32's the same as the shrouds and also I'm upping the backstay to 5/32's just to stay with the same size parts on all of this.

I got a :
Tie Down 43005 26" Hand Swaging Tool, Cap: Sizes 1/16 to 3/16 Inch w/ Cutter

from here.....

http://www.toolfetch.com/Category/Hand_Tools/Hand_Swagers/43005.htm

I haven't used it yet, but it looks good and has the go-no-go gauges with it.

I hope to be using this stuff in a week or so if I can ever get done with the trailer :cry:,

Sum

Our Trips to Lake Powell, UT - Kootenay Lake, Canada - Priest Lake, ID

Our Mac Pages

Mac-Venture Links

 

[oreana123]

OK my reference is FAA advisory circular 43.13-1A. The swages have equal strength, but the aluminum swages are about 4X cheaper. Copper and stainless or aluminum and stainless, both are dissimilar. Next question, are you planning to sail salt water? Next question, how many swages have failed due to dissimilar metal corrosion? (zero, in my experience).

 

[Sumner]

John for the small amount you are going to spend on these I'd recommend the copper. The copper ones I got from Rigging Only are zinc plated for what that is worth. The originals don't seem to be.

I also found the following:

Aluminum swage sleeves will only hold about one half the cable strength – Don’t use in the marine environment.

....here.....

http://www.bosunsupplies.com/products2.cfm?product=nicros

Also here they say.....

for copper loop or lap splices.

http://www.usrigging.com/sleeves.html

...for the copper ones. Not real sure what they are talking about.

I'm not saying the aluminum wouldn't work on our boats, but the others aren't that expensive at .66 each or $13.20 for the shrouds and back stay from Rigging Only for 5/32.

c ya,

Sum

 

[MrMikey64]

Thanks, all. I really appreciate the input and perspective. I would feel more comfortable using something better than if not the same as orignal equipment. I will be using the boat on both fresh and salt water, but primarily fresh to begin with.
I believe the current rigging is 1/8, or whatever was standard on 80s Macs, but the boat has been unused for so long that I'm leary of leaving it as-is. It looks like I need to repair the forestay at the very least, so why not do the whole thing and rest easy?
So, am I right in figuring about 150' for re-rigging? Anybody have the numbers on that?

 

[oreana123]

Wow Sum
I have to wonder where Bosun Supplies gets its data. Using two swages does nothing for strength. Using a stainless swage will get rid of dissimilar metal corrosion, but will stainless "flow" around the wires and strands when swaged? Since when is aluminum barred from the marine environment?

I have a bit of experience with swage failure, I taught beginners to hang glide for years. Cables that were destroyed by extreme shock loads usually failed by separating the wire from the thimble and breaking at the bight formed around the thimble. The actual swage, if formed correctly and measured with a go-nogo gauge, never pulled out, was not the weak point. ymmv. John S

 

[Sumner]

.....So, am I right in figuring about 150' for re-rigging? Anybody have the numbers on that?

That is what I ordered for our S, but I haven't rigged it yet. I tried to be a little liberal on the length though. I also ordered extra thimbles and sleeves just in case I screwed something up :cry:.

Wow Sum
I have to wonder where Bosun Supplies gets its data. Using two swages does nothing for strength. Using a stainless swage will get rid of dissimilar metal corrosion, but will stainless "flow" around the wires and strands when swaged? Since when is aluminum barred from the marine environment?...... John S

I noticed they gave stainless about 100% strength, but you can't hand swage it, and copper 80% and aluminum 50%. I don't know where they got these figures. I do feel the aluminum will corrode faster/more than the copper over time, especially in a salt water environment. This is my guess only and if it does it could be weaker down the road. I did notice that zinc plated copper sleeves from them are about twice the cost as from Rigging Only.

On the 2 sleeve deal, MacGregor did that (at least our boat has 2) and I'll bet that is just thrown in as a little added safety factor. I'm going to put on two, but as you said it is really the one at the thimble that is doing the work, but if for any reason it failed the second one sure wouldn't hurt.

I guess it all comes down to doing what a person feels comfortable with ,

Sum

Our Trips to Lake Powell, UT - Kootenay Lake, Canada - Priest Lake, ID

Our Mac Pages

Mac-Venture Links

 

[timebandit]

Didja ever put a stainless screw in an aluminum mast without coating it first??

 

[OnTheBayou]

For those that don't know 304 Stainless is about the same thing as 18-8. Bottom line is it corrodes anytime it gets anywhere close to salt water. The 316 stainless will not corrode and is used in most marine hardware for offshore style boats. The trade off is that the 316 stainless is not as strong as the 304 or 18-8. Case in point - you will never find a boat prop made out of 316 stainless, only 304 and they do rust if you don't keep them polished. As for sleeves 316 is fine and strong enough to do the job.

 

[Nik]

I did mine with Swagelok terminals and Harken turnbuckles all around, a few dollars more and all was aquired from Rigging only (best prices) shipped in 2 days, arrived in less than a week; WMarine did offer a price match but with a 4 week lead time. I ordered the proper size split rings "key rings" from Fastenall in 316ss also. I didn't want to use binding wire or cotters due to edges. No crimps and no ragged wire ends to fish hook you or the sails. Glad I did and never looked back. Also upgraded the wire to 3/16, 316ss the baby stays were left at 1/8 with the original adjusters used.

Nik