Sorry to flog a dead horse, but I just recalled Jerry Powlas' on-line article: From “Good Old Boat” Magazine ~ “SUMMARY OF TESTING CRIMP SPLICES” http://www.goodoldboat.com/electrical.html ”... CONCLUSION In my opinion most of the practices recommended in Gord May's article were verified in these tests. Ratcheting crimpers are clearly superior. Ancor marine grade butt splices (both types) are clearly superior to GB butt splices. TINNED WIRE RESISTED CORROSION BETTER THAN UN-TINNED WIRE. . Sealing the splices did not show much better in these tests, but it is probably a fault of the tests, not a fault of the practice ...” Capitalization mine. Gord
Tinned Wire ?
- Thread starter Gord May
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Soldered Connections
Is there some opposition to soldering and taping a connection? How would it fare against the butt crimp connection? May we assume that terminal ends should be handled the same way? Tin and crimp with ratcheting crimper...
Is there some opposition to soldering and taping a connection? How would it fare against the butt crimp connection? May we assume that terminal ends should be handled the same way? Tin and crimp with ratcheting crimper...
Tinned Wire and Soldered Connections
“Ohm’s Law & Boats” Posted to Cruisers Forum: http://cruisersforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=372 Excerpts from ABYC “Standards & Recommended Practices for Small Craft ~ 2000” [Since Revised into Combined Section E-11] Posted to Cruisers Forum: http://cruisersforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1471 ABYC Section E-8.15.19 Solder shall not be the sole means of mechanical connection in any circuit. If soldered, the connection shall be so located or supported as to minimize flexing of the conductor where the solder changes the flexible conductor into a solid conductor. ABYC Section E-8.15.20 Solderless crimp on connectors shall be attached with the type of crimping tools designed for the connector used, and that will produce a connection meeting the requirements of ABYC E-8.15.15. The possibility of strain hardening caused by low frequency vibration present on vessels mandates the exclusive use of stranded copper wire (ABYC E-11.16.1.2.5. and ABYC E-11.16.1.3.7.). Tinned, stranded copper wire is the preferred wire conductor for use in marine electrical systems because it offers maximum protection against corrosion. At junctions, this wire is galvanically compatible with tin plated terminals. This compatibility helps prevent high resistance connections, overheated junctions, and fires. Tape (alone) is not an adequate insulator nor sealant. Further information: http://www.abycinc.org/standards/purpose.cfm#P1Regards, Gord
“Ohm’s Law & Boats” Posted to Cruisers Forum: http://cruisersforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=372 Excerpts from ABYC “Standards & Recommended Practices for Small Craft ~ 2000” [Since Revised into Combined Section E-11] Posted to Cruisers Forum: http://cruisersforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1471 ABYC Section E-8.15.19 Solder shall not be the sole means of mechanical connection in any circuit. If soldered, the connection shall be so located or supported as to minimize flexing of the conductor where the solder changes the flexible conductor into a solid conductor. ABYC Section E-8.15.20 Solderless crimp on connectors shall be attached with the type of crimping tools designed for the connector used, and that will produce a connection meeting the requirements of ABYC E-8.15.15. The possibility of strain hardening caused by low frequency vibration present on vessels mandates the exclusive use of stranded copper wire (ABYC E-11.16.1.2.5. and ABYC E-11.16.1.3.7.). Tinned, stranded copper wire is the preferred wire conductor for use in marine electrical systems because it offers maximum protection against corrosion. At junctions, this wire is galvanically compatible with tin plated terminals. This compatibility helps prevent high resistance connections, overheated junctions, and fires. Tape (alone) is not an adequate insulator nor sealant. Further information: http://www.abycinc.org/standards/purpose.cfm#P1Regards, Gord
Soldering Not Recommended for.....
.... terminal connections because it forms a hard transition which is prone to fatigue failure. However, to answer your question about an in-line butt connections where the wire is more-or-less loose on each end (vice fixed as with a terminal) that's hard to say. Personally, I'd just stick with a crimped connection and use marine grade heat-shrink (not tape). With regard to the Ancor Double Crimp Ratchet Tool, their Part #701030 (for up to 10 ga with "insulated" connectors), be cautioned that there is a warning with regard to the tool: WARNING: THIS PRODUCT CONTAINS A CHEMICAL KNOWN TO THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA TO CAUSE CANCER OR BIRTH DEFECTS OR OTHER REPRODUCTIVE HARM. WASH HANDS AFTER USING. What this probably is, my guess, is lead in the plastic on the handles. I couldn't find more information anywhere. Also, since the tool is imported and apparently the same tool sold under other names (the ones I've seen look identical except for the color of the plastic handle), one can assume the same warning would apply even if the packaging doesn't say so - and the ones I've seen don't.
.... terminal connections because it forms a hard transition which is prone to fatigue failure. However, to answer your question about an in-line butt connections where the wire is more-or-less loose on each end (vice fixed as with a terminal) that's hard to say. Personally, I'd just stick with a crimped connection and use marine grade heat-shrink (not tape). With regard to the Ancor Double Crimp Ratchet Tool, their Part #701030 (for up to 10 ga with "insulated" connectors), be cautioned that there is a warning with regard to the tool: WARNING: THIS PRODUCT CONTAINS A CHEMICAL KNOWN TO THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA TO CAUSE CANCER OR BIRTH DEFECTS OR OTHER REPRODUCTIVE HARM. WASH HANDS AFTER USING. What this probably is, my guess, is lead in the plastic on the handles. I couldn't find more information anywhere. Also, since the tool is imported and apparently the same tool sold under other names (the ones I've seen look identical except for the color of the plastic handle), one can assume the same warning would apply even if the packaging doesn't say so - and the ones I've seen don't.
CA Warning
John The crimping tool from Ancor is great, saves a bundle of work and almost always make a superior crimp. BTW, most should know now that almost EVERYTHING that comes to, through, around and under California has one of the those stickers on it. They started doing it for good reasons, and, like all bureaucratic nonsense*butt, it got out of hand. Buildings are labeled with it, gas pumps, of course, and I've seen one on, gotta love this, a golf course! *yks Go figure! Stu
John The crimping tool from Ancor is great, saves a bundle of work and almost always make a superior crimp. BTW, most should know now that almost EVERYTHING that comes to, through, around and under California has one of the those stickers on it. They started doing it for good reasons, and, like all bureaucratic nonsense*butt, it got out of hand. Buildings are labeled with it, gas pumps, of course, and I've seen one on, gotta love this, a golf course! *yks Go figure! Stu
It has to do with WORKMANSHIP
and I say that DONE PROPERLY, I will take a soldered connection any day. The standards for agencies and acronymonous organizations are derived by concensus of many sources - legal (the ones who make a crimper manufacturer put that nonsense on the handle), financial bean counters - accountants (who fret and regret having to write the checks for the requisite worker training), engineers (who see the failures), idiot workers who are watching the clock, politicians (who see nothing at all unless you point it out),etc. Look at the aforementioned ANSI tank commissioning process - putting clorox in an aluminum tank - indeed! Thus the rules we have are what they are. This does not always result in the best, lowest resistance, and most reliable connection. If you provide the proper strain relief and use the proper solder and techniques, that is best in my opinion. It requires training, time, and careful attention to detail. Yes, I do know that lead is involved and no I do not care what some flower childs offspring thinks about my wiring. I have already fixed the flower childs work on my boat - crimped connections and all. The flower child also wants to outlaw cigarette smoking and legalize drugs. That is who makes and or defines these rules the idiotic lowest common denominator. And no - I have never done either.
and I say that DONE PROPERLY, I will take a soldered connection any day. The standards for agencies and acronymonous organizations are derived by concensus of many sources - legal (the ones who make a crimper manufacturer put that nonsense on the handle), financial bean counters - accountants (who fret and regret having to write the checks for the requisite worker training), engineers (who see the failures), idiot workers who are watching the clock, politicians (who see nothing at all unless you point it out),etc. Look at the aforementioned ANSI tank commissioning process - putting clorox in an aluminum tank - indeed! Thus the rules we have are what they are. This does not always result in the best, lowest resistance, and most reliable connection. If you provide the proper strain relief and use the proper solder and techniques, that is best in my opinion. It requires training, time, and careful attention to detail. Yes, I do know that lead is involved and no I do not care what some flower childs offspring thinks about my wiring. I have already fixed the flower childs work on my boat - crimped connections and all. The flower child also wants to outlaw cigarette smoking and legalize drugs. That is who makes and or defines these rules the idiotic lowest common denominator. And no - I have never done either.
Soldering Connections
I'm new to the ABYC standards - but I think corrosion is the greater threat to connection when weighed against vibration. A crimped connection seems to invite corrosion. I guess our rigging makes pretty extensive use of crimping though. When it says that solder shall not be the only mechanical connection, does taping the joint count as mechanical connection? Does heat shrink tubing count? I'm getting ready to do a good bit of wiring on my new H260 and want to get it right from the start. New instruments, autopilot, AC power, macerator, stereo - that sort of stuff.
I'm new to the ABYC standards - but I think corrosion is the greater threat to connection when weighed against vibration. A crimped connection seems to invite corrosion. I guess our rigging makes pretty extensive use of crimping though. When it says that solder shall not be the only mechanical connection, does taping the joint count as mechanical connection? Does heat shrink tubing count? I'm getting ready to do a good bit of wiring on my new H260 and want to get it right from the start. New instruments, autopilot, AC power, macerator, stereo - that sort of stuff.
Soldering
Q "When it says that solder shall not be the only mechanical connection, does taping the joint count as mechanical connection?" I do not think so and would not count on it if it did. Q "Does heat shrink tubing count?" Same answer. If you want to solder, make sure the solder does not wick into an area of the wire which will flex. Provide some adequate mechanical strain relief. Some tension is ok but bending is not. I run everything through some kind of clamp and use a lot of toriods to reduce emi. Find a good grade of eutectic solder and electrical flux. Make sure you heat the connection enough, clean it with a solvent (alcohol), inspect it carefully, and finally, cover the connection with inner wall melt heat shrink tubing.
Q "When it says that solder shall not be the only mechanical connection, does taping the joint count as mechanical connection?" I do not think so and would not count on it if it did. Q "Does heat shrink tubing count?" Same answer. If you want to solder, make sure the solder does not wick into an area of the wire which will flex. Provide some adequate mechanical strain relief. Some tension is ok but bending is not. I run everything through some kind of clamp and use a lot of toriods to reduce emi. Find a good grade of eutectic solder and electrical flux. Make sure you heat the connection enough, clean it with a solvent (alcohol), inspect it carefully, and finally, cover the connection with inner wall melt heat shrink tubing.
Soldering and Stuff for H260
David, don't want to sound like a broken record, but I found Don Casey's book a great reference for the type of work you plan on doing. He covers a lot of the stuff discussed here. I don't get any royalties here, jus think it's a great resource. Also, stay in touch re the autopilot. I spent so much money on my rewiring project that I could not find the $800 needed to buy the Raymarine 4000 MarkII I lusted after. But maybe next year. http://kobernus.com/H260_web/index.html
David, don't want to sound like a broken record, but I found Don Casey's book a great reference for the type of work you plan on doing. He covers a lot of the stuff discussed here. I don't get any royalties here, jus think it's a great resource. Also, stay in touch re the autopilot. I spent so much money on my rewiring project that I could not find the $800 needed to buy the Raymarine 4000 MarkII I lusted after. But maybe next year. http://kobernus.com/H260_web/index.html
Heat Shrink Helps With Strain Relief
The heat shrink tubing will provide some strain relief so that's one more reason to use it. Patrick - Q1. How can you solder a connection so that the solder won't wick into an area that won't flex? Whenever I heat things up the solder really runs! Q2. and, what's this about the flower child banning smoking??? I always thought they were in favor of smoking! (not tobaco but the other stuff)
The heat shrink tubing will provide some strain relief so that's one more reason to use it. Patrick - Q1. How can you solder a connection so that the solder won't wick into an area that won't flex? Whenever I heat things up the solder really runs! Q2. and, what's this about the flower child banning smoking??? I always thought they were in favor of smoking! (not tobaco but the other stuff)
Now wait a minute.
This thread's getting awfully good for a subject that started with tinned wire.
This thread's getting awfully good for a subject that started with tinned wire.
crimping then soldering
As Patrick suggested, proper soldering “... requires training, time, and careful attention to detail ...” (& proper strain-relief). With my apologies to all - I don’t think most DIY boatowners have the requisite skill to perform a “good” solder joint. I find it difficult (thruth be known ~ Impossible) to make consistently perfect solder joints, under the circumstances found on most boats. David H asks if taping counts as additional strain-relief on soldered joints. NO, tape counts for NOTHING, and has no proper application in boat wiring (except as an “identifier” under a heat shrink). Soldered terminations must be FIRST CRIMPED, then soldered (now that’s going to be moisture-resistant),THEN INDEPENDANTLY SUPPORTED. This additional support can take the form an overall Heat-Shrink sleeve, AND non-metalic cable straps on both sides of a butt joint (within 18"). Patrick indicates that you must, “... make sure the solder does not wick into an area of the wire which will flex ...” Solder WILL wick up the conductors, past the actual joint. Highly skilled techs can usually limit this to a fraction of an inch, which will leave the inevitable “hard spot” close to the termination barrel end, and under the (somewhat supporting) heat-shrink. From the Article “Ohm’s Law & Boats” http://cruisersforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=372 SOLDERED JOINTS: ABYC does NOT permit soldered-only joints (Section E-9.17.12.8). Where crimped joints are also soldered, adequate support must be provided, so as to minimize flexing. The solder causes a ‘hard spot’ in the wire, which is subject to breaking. While soldering will greatly reduce moisture penetration and joint resistance; it’s is often very difficult to accomplish in the tight quarters encountered in boats. I seldom solder terminations, except for (previously ‘crimped’) Bilge Pump wiring (where water/moisture is a huge problem), and Battery Lugs (where hydrogen gassing causes corrosion). Respectfully, Gord
As Patrick suggested, proper soldering “... requires training, time, and careful attention to detail ...” (& proper strain-relief). With my apologies to all - I don’t think most DIY boatowners have the requisite skill to perform a “good” solder joint. I find it difficult (thruth be known ~ Impossible) to make consistently perfect solder joints, under the circumstances found on most boats. David H asks if taping counts as additional strain-relief on soldered joints. NO, tape counts for NOTHING, and has no proper application in boat wiring (except as an “identifier” under a heat shrink). Soldered terminations must be FIRST CRIMPED, then soldered (now that’s going to be moisture-resistant),THEN INDEPENDANTLY SUPPORTED. This additional support can take the form an overall Heat-Shrink sleeve, AND non-metalic cable straps on both sides of a butt joint (within 18"). Patrick indicates that you must, “... make sure the solder does not wick into an area of the wire which will flex ...” Solder WILL wick up the conductors, past the actual joint. Highly skilled techs can usually limit this to a fraction of an inch, which will leave the inevitable “hard spot” close to the termination barrel end, and under the (somewhat supporting) heat-shrink. From the Article “Ohm’s Law & Boats” http://cruisersforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=372 SOLDERED JOINTS: ABYC does NOT permit soldered-only joints (Section E-9.17.12.8). Where crimped joints are also soldered, adequate support must be provided, so as to minimize flexing. The solder causes a ‘hard spot’ in the wire, which is subject to breaking. While soldering will greatly reduce moisture penetration and joint resistance; it’s is often very difficult to accomplish in the tight quarters encountered in boats. I seldom solder terminations, except for (previously ‘crimped’) Bilge Pump wiring (where water/moisture is a huge problem), and Battery Lugs (where hydrogen gassing causes corrosion). Respectfully, Gord
Happy Ground Hog Day, John
I would get you a card but Halmark doesn't make any that I could find. "The heat shrink tubing will provide some strain relief so that's one more reason to use it." I do not think that is what they mean by strain relief. I use heat shrink on each connection and if warranted, I use larger heat shrink on the entire bundle. Usually, there is some kind of clamp on connectors and junction boxes and I use a strap or cable ties in places where there is no clamp. Mostly I try to provide support somewhere close to the connection which will keep it from flexing at the solder joint itself. Q1. How can you solder a connection so that the solder won't wick into an area that won't flex? Whenever I heat things up the solder really runs! A1. Use a hotter iron with an iron clad tip. Clean it well just before soldering by wiping it on a moist sponge (apply a little excess solder when you aren't actually soldering). Apply the correct flux (I use Kester rosin flux) only on the area where you want the solder to go. Tin just the very end of the wire. Work fast and just heat the parts enough to melt it so that it flows well. You do not have to heat it very long if your iron is big enough. The longer you heat it, the more it will flow. I use a 65 watt iron for most of the wiring I do. Do not wiggle it while it is cooling. If it looks grainy, it is probably not a good connection. It should be shiny and you should be able to see the wire strands under the solder. There are books on this subject but there is nothing like practice. Q2. and, what's this about the flower child banning smoking??? I always thought they were in favor of smoking! (not tobaco but the other stuff) A2. My point exactly!
I would get you a card but Halmark doesn't make any that I could find. "The heat shrink tubing will provide some strain relief so that's one more reason to use it." I do not think that is what they mean by strain relief. I use heat shrink on each connection and if warranted, I use larger heat shrink on the entire bundle. Usually, there is some kind of clamp on connectors and junction boxes and I use a strap or cable ties in places where there is no clamp. Mostly I try to provide support somewhere close to the connection which will keep it from flexing at the solder joint itself. Q1. How can you solder a connection so that the solder won't wick into an area that won't flex? Whenever I heat things up the solder really runs! A1. Use a hotter iron with an iron clad tip. Clean it well just before soldering by wiping it on a moist sponge (apply a little excess solder when you aren't actually soldering). Apply the correct flux (I use Kester rosin flux) only on the area where you want the solder to go. Tin just the very end of the wire. Work fast and just heat the parts enough to melt it so that it flows well. You do not have to heat it very long if your iron is big enough. The longer you heat it, the more it will flow. I use a 65 watt iron for most of the wiring I do. Do not wiggle it while it is cooling. If it looks grainy, it is probably not a good connection. It should be shiny and you should be able to see the wire strands under the solder. There are books on this subject but there is nothing like practice. Q2. and, what's this about the flower child banning smoking??? I always thought they were in favor of smoking! (not tobaco but the other stuff) A2. My point exactly!
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