Time to decide - Fixed jib block or install track system?

[Ward H]

My O'day 25 has a fixed jib block on the deck. Have always heard the position is a compromise.
I just ordered a new 115 jib and will be discussing this with the sail maker in detail soon. (Hyde Sails Direct. You place the order, then they call to discuss specifics and send you measuring instructions. I have already had enough discussions with them to choose them as my supplier).

To get an idea on pricing I am looking at track and blocks on cars. It looks like most car mounted blocks are sold as low lead cars or genoa cars with side to side movement but not a true swivel block. Is this due to the size of a genoa that swivel is not needed or even for a 110 or 115 jib you only need side to side movement, that the block does not need to swivel?

I watched the fixed swivel block on my boat yesterday and it did appear to only need side to side movement.

I believe my options will be to have the sail cut to fit the fixed block and deal with poor trim when furled or plan on installing a track and give them those measurements. It looks like I could go with a 48" track without putting it smack in the middle of the side deck where we walk since we enter the boat from the bow.

Back in 2013 when I was prepping for my first season and I replaced those stand up blocks I never thought I would be considering jib cars and tracks but now I am.

Would it really make that much of a difference?

 

[Apex]

jib tracks are the way to adjust sheeting angle, which is a huge part of proper sail trim to gain the most out of your sail. I would also recommned adding blocks to make the blocks adjusteable under load. We do not have the blocks, so adjust on opposite tack. <insert Don Guillette sail trim book advertisement here>

 

[Jackdaw]

The lower your jib clew is to the deck, the more important it is. With a blade jib I cannot image not having adjustable cars; remotely adjustable at that.

 

[Ward H]

Sorry jackdaw, this I understand

The lower your jib clew is to the deck, the more important it is.

This I do not.

With a blade jib I cannot image not having adjustable cars; remotely adjustable at that.

Are you saying my furled 115 would be considered a blade jib and adjustable tracks are just as important?

I'm considering a remotely adjustable car system.

 

[Davidasailor26]

I believe my options will be to have the sail cut to fit the fixed block and deal with poor trim when furled or plan on installing a track

The track is used to adjust the block location for more than just when you're furled. For example as wind speed increases and you want to depower the jib you'll want to pull the cars back to twist off the sail.

 

[Joe]

I vote track. Standard 1" T track (not harken) with pin stop sliders. You can use your existing stand up blocks mounted to the sliders. A second set of leads will allow you more options.
If cruising is your primary type of sailing... mount the track for a wider sheeting angle with sheets run outside the shrouds... you can always barber haul to bring it in toward center for a tighter angle. A second, shorter track on the inside is another option.
I installed the Garhauer EZ glide system years ago and it was one of the best upgrades... along with the rigid vang.. I've ever made. That is always an option as long as you install standard T track.

I would prefer installing the track first.... then measuring for the sail.. rather than the other way round. Your sailmaker can give you advice on the general track location to accommodate a wide range of sails.

 

[Don Guillette]

My O'day 25 has a fixed jib block on the deck. Have always heard the position is a compromise.

Ward: Here's why the fixed block is worse than a compromise - One of the first things I look at when I step aboard a boat is the fairlead set up. 99% of the time I see a track system and generally what I see is the fairlead is rusted in place and not used (similar to your fixed position). The result is that position is like the broken clock. the position is right for one point of sail and wrong for all others. The second thing I look at, especially on older Catalina's, is the outhaul. The internal system is a poor design and doesn't work and it's also like the broken clock.

Do yourself a favor and follow Jackdaw's & Joe from San Diego's advise -- these guys know what they're talking about and won't steer you wrong..

 

[Jackdaw]

Sorry jackdaw, this I understand

This I do not.

Are you saying my furled 115 would be considered a blade jib and adjustable tracks are just as important?

I'm considering a remotely adjustable car system.

Sorry! A blade is a low clew jib. The closer the clew is to the deck, the more pronounced the effect of sheet position. Think of it like a teeter totter where one side is very short. A small change there results is a big change on the long (sail) side, which effects twist in a big way.

Track REALLY helps.

 

[jwing]

99% of the time I see a track system and generally what I see is the fairlead is rusted in place and not used (similar to your fixed position). The result is that position is like the broken clock. the position is right for one point of sail and wrong for all others.

When I bought my boat, the jib leads were seized in place. After a few years of sailing her like that and trying to make the telltales fly right, I realized what Don says about the broken clock. So as I was figuring out how to repair what I had, I got to figuring that using pin-stop traveling jib leads would probably doom me to hardly ever changing the lead position. That may be OK when you can sail on the same tack in consistent wind for long stretches, but I sail on a fairly small lake surrounded by highlands, and the wind is often swirly. So I installed a jib leads that are controllable under load from the tiller position. Similar to the Garhauer EZ glide, but made of Nautos components for much less money. It has been a fun and educational upgrade; I recommend that you try it.

 

[Justin_NSA]

Do you really see yourself furling a 110-115? I don't mind spending other people's money, but if you are having a new sail cut, they could probably make it work with your existing blocks. Unless you race, my guess is that you will never move your cars to trim the sail. Then you need to consider the act of actually installing the tracks. many new holes in the deck as well as proper backing below. Just food for thought. YMMV

 

[Meriachee]

All the track and cars in the world are not really going to help a furled sail perform anywhere close to optimally.

 

[Ward H]

I would prefer installing the track first.... then measuring for the sail.. rather than the other way round. Your sailmaker can give you advice on the general track location to accommodate a wide range of sails.

That is what the sail maker and I decided.
I had chosen a 115% jib. The sheeting point was too far back to sheet to a deck mounted car on track and maintain a fairlead to the winch. We then looked at track placement based on a fair lead to the winch and to clear the shrouds. We came up with a 4' track between chain plate and aft lifeline stanchion. They then designed the jib to sheet to this track location. It changed the jib to a 108% but she said my current jib measured out to 95 or 100% so the new one would still be slightly larger than the original. (159sf to 175sf)
My only question now is where to mount the forward end of the track in comparison to the chain plates/shrouds to avoid fouling the sheets on the shrouds. Slightly aft and outboard of the chain plate? In line with the shroud/chain plate connection?
Does a few inches either way matter?

In the pic the 16.8' mark is where the aft track position would need to be for the 115%. The 108% will sheet .3' forward of the 14.7' position and the 10.6' position gives me a 4' track which is what Hyde recommended.

 

[Joe]

That is what the sail maker and I decided.
I had chosen a 115% jib. The sheeting point was too far back to sheet to a deck mounted car on track and maintain a fairlead to the winch. We then looked at track placement based on a fair lead to the winch and to clear the shrouds. We came up with a 4' track between chain plate and aft lifeline stanchion. They then designed the jib to sheet to this track location. It changed the jib to a 108% but she said my current jib measured out to 95 or 100% so the new one would still be slightly larger than the original. (159sf to 175sf)
My only question now is where to mount the forward end of the track in comparison to the chain plates/shrouds to avoid fouling the sheets on the shrouds. Slightly aft and outboard of the chain plate? In line with the shroud/chain plate connection?
Does a few inches either way matter?

In the pic the 16.8' mark is where the aft track position would need to be for the 115%. The 108% will sheet .3' forward of the 14.7' position and the 10.6' position gives me a 4' track which is what Hyde recommended.

View attachment 127349

Ward, I don't think it makes a whole lot of difference. Your decision is whether to bring sheets inside lifelines or not.... I recommend outside on a boat your size. If you want a smaller sheeting angle for certain situations... you can rig a barber hauler. (sheeting angle is the horizontal angle between a line from stem to lead block and the boat's centerline.)

BTW.. I would ask the sail maker to design a 115 to accommodate your desired lead position... rather than trying to fit the track to the sail. They can do this by altering the height of the clew. In the diagram.. if you lowered the clew of the 100% jib it would decrease the overlap and move the lead block forward. i.e. longer leech, shorter foot... to maintain same size. If you raised the clew... shorter leech, longer foot... the overlap increases and the lead block goes aft. The sail's overlap is not part of the sail's size calculation. The sail's clew height is determined by placement of the LP (luff perpendicular)... you can slide a right angle up and down the sail's luff to see how it affects the clew height without changing sail size.

 

[Don Guillette]

In the pic the 16.8' mark is where the aft track position would need to be for the 115%. The 108% will sheet .3' forward of the 14.7' position and the 10.6' position gives me a 4' track which is what Hyde recommended.


Ward: I wonder if it would be worth considering to install a track that runs from about where the stanchion in line with the mast is to a point as far as you can go aft (next to the deck combing) then your set for any size jib that will fit your boat.

 

[Ward H]

BTW.. I would ask the sail maker to design a 115 to accommodate your desired lead position.

Basically that is what I did. She (Judy at Hyde Sails Direct) reviewed and the Hyde designers showed, how far aft a 115 would need to be sheeted. When I confirmed my fair lead position and shroud/lifeline positions wouldn't allow sheeting that far aft, they designed a jib which would fit what my fair lead/shroud/lifeline positions would allow. That ended up being a 108% jib. She did mention they adjusted the clew a little to help to keep the largest size jib possible considering those restrictions.

So, since I supplied them with 30 some measurements, I have rely on them to design the best jib to meet those measurements. They had also suggested a 4' track to provide plenty of room for jib car adjustment for moving the car aft to induce twist (de-power the jib) or forward for furling up to 30% (I believe. They say they provide 3 marks on the foot at 10% furling intervals).

BTW, those sq ft numbers were my WAG which I now know was flawed. She said from my photos she calculated my jib to be a 95% or 100% (supposedly it came with a 100%) so I would still be getting a slightly larger sail at 108%.

In any case, having a new jib and having it designed for furler reefing (reefing luff pads and corner patches) AND installing jib tracks and adjustable cars, will be a huge improvement over the original 36 yr old jib which was modified when the furler was added 16 years ago.


Don, that's a good idea except I have to ensure I don't make entry from the bow more difficult for the Admiral. (She has some mobility issues) The 4' track just happens to fit between the chain plate and stanchion so it won't add much tripping hazard. I don't think the advantage is worth the risk. As it is getting on/off our boat is akin to being an aircraft carrier pilot. The take off and landings are the trickiest part of a flight.


Thinking about it, that is kind of what I asked in my last post. Should I position the forward track end as far outboard of the chain plate as possible or slightly in board? I’m only talking a couple of inches so it probably does not matter.


BTW, after a rough start at the end of last season with a new main not cut properly, I finally got that fixed and now have a good cunningham, outhaul and rough but usable traveler and boom vang. These sail trim controls are starting to make sense and I am seeing the results of the adjustments. That has motivated me to get the new jib and track/cars.

Along with the new jib and jib track/cars I have a new traveler and main sheet tackle on order. The existing main sheet tackle will be used to improve the boom vang. All of this is allowing me to take my sailing to a new level.

 

[Joe]

Ward... Here are some thoughts for your current and future consideration. If you look at the picture of this boat.... can you visualize adding your track to the lower area forward of the coaming's step.... then.... lead the sheet to a turning block on the genoa track (upper coaming behind the winch) before going back to the winch..... Or... you could install a dedicated foot block on the side of the coaming to do the same thing.???

Even if you leave it the way you have it planned now... there is a very sharply angled entry to the winch which may reduce its efficiency and performance.


On my Catalina 27 the winches are on a tall coaming like yours... but they are canted out to provide a better entry for the sheet. Even so, I have the sheets led back to a turning block before entering the winch. It provides a consistent entry angle and reduces the stress on the lead so it is easy to move backward under load.

What would really be cool is to mount the track directly on top of the molded toe rail... outside the stanchions....I'm thinking that might be difficult... kind of a factory thing.. but this boat looks like there is a track along the entire toe rail... just a thought.

 

[Ward H]

Hey Joe, that's a great shot to use to discuss the options of the jib track. You can see the white sheave of the fixed jib block on the deck about between the two cabin windows.
What you see on the toe rail is teak trim. It was put on some 25's/26's. I don't have the trim but heard it was screwed on. Getting to the underside would require a lot of cutting of the fiberglass cabin liner and maybe a lot of reinforcement of that area. If not for that I would definitely install the track there. I just don't want to do that much work.
I do know the area under the stanchions will support a jib track so it is just a matter of drilling, potting, the drilling again and using fender washers or maybe teak trim on the inside as backing plates.

I like your idea of leading the sheets to a foot block on the side of the combing, back to the genoa track, then to the winch. I will look into doing that as I see how that will maintain the proper lead angle to the winch. When I installed new winches a couple of years ago I put pads under them to get the correct lead angle. I think I will be still be inside the suggested lead angle with the jib track but your idea sounds better.

All my new toys are starting to arrive. New Harken traveler came yesterday. Just received shipping notice the sails arrive Friday, 2 weeks ahead of schedule. The Garhauer jib track, cars and main sheet tackle should be shipping soon. All just in time for some good fall sailing.