Time management - Fog

[jon hansen]

i will say that i had not remembered that it was an inland law. the traffic here is certainly different from the deep blue sea.
i retired from the ships back in 88' have not had my face in a radar since. became a mister mom. the kids and i spent every summer sailing every day. they are gone now. i still sail every day during the season. the north channel and georgian bay were our play ground for many summers.

 

[Charles Erwin]

The 'half the distance rule' is really an anachronism. The rule was announced by the US Supreme Court long before the current ColRegs (see present Rule 6) were adopted 1977 and 1980 for inland rules. It was never actually a part of any statute. When the new regs came about the then existing inland rule - upon which the half the distance rule of thumb was based -- was repealed.

The repealed statute used the term "moderate speed" and the new rule uses the term "safe speed." Anyone - judges included - knows there are just too many factors at work in the term safe speed to become wed to an all encompassing half the distance rule. By the way even if any remnants of the half the distance rule still existed the rule does not operate if you show that your speed had nothing at all to do with the collision. This is the known as the Pennsylvania rule - and since that is pretty tough to show - collision cases frequently end in a tie.

The short of it is since the adoption of the present 1977/980 regulations, many - probably most - courts do not find the half the distance rule of thumb to be of much use.

Charles

 

[jon hansen]

les, we all know about holding tank and pumpout stations. big fines. there are no pumpout stations for ships up here on the inland seas. funny how that goes. follow the money and you'll see how law enforcment works.

 

[jon hansen]

in 1979 when i widened the opening of north bridge at grosse ile by 60 ft the judge believed the 'act of god' rule and that is not in any book. just like the rule of gross ton. not in any book. no fine was given.

fun fact: whats the difference between a fairy tale and a sea story? A: a fairy tale starts out 'once upon a time. a sea story starts out 'this ain't no sh**'

 

[jon hansen]

i've learned new things today. thank you all

 

[Kings Gambit]

The 'half the distance rule' is really an anachronism. The rule was announced by the US Supreme Court long before the current ColRegs (see present Rule 6) were adopted 1977 and 1980 for inland rules. It was never actually a part of any statute. When the new regs came about the then existing inland rule - upon which the half the distance rule of thumb was based -- was repealed.

The repealed statute used the term "moderate speed" and the new rule uses the term "safe speed." Anyone - judges included - knows there are just too many factors at work in the term safe speed to become wed to an all encompassing half the distance rule. By the way even if any remnants of the half the distance rule still existed the rule does not operate if you show that your speed had nothing at all to do with the collision. This is the known as the Pensylvania rule - and since that is pretty tough to show - collision cases frequently end in a tie.

The short of it is since the adoption of the present 1977/980 regulations, many - probably most - courts do not find the half the distance rule of thumb to be of much use.

Charles

So, we can agree then that there is no such "rule" under present ColREGS, and that even the courts might not recognize their own "precedent" regarding it as it is out of date?

http://kennebeccaptain.blogspot.com/2009/05/rules-for-vessel-in-fog-out-of-date.html

 

[jon hansen]

i'm coming up on the 44th season that my old alden has been in the family. i still have the B&G radio direction finder on station. still works, nice convesation piece. do still use it , am radio, to listen for lighting. the largest thunderstorms in the world grow on the great planes of n. america. they then slam into the great lakes. scary!

 

[jon hansen]

i concour kings gambit. but, it can be a good starting point for a newbie to consider what he is doing.

 

[Charles Erwin]

The truth of the matter is that every collision case will be decided on a case-by-case basis - probably not on the basis of any single seemingly easy to apply rule.

The second thing is that this prior judge made law is not helpful because the statue to which the 'half the distance' rule of thumb applied was repealed. Cases expressing judge made notions concerning how statutes should work (here the judge made half the distance theory) do not amount to useful precedent when the statute at stake was repealed and replaced some 35 years ago.


Charles

 

[Kings Gambit]

The newbies I know, and have known, are deathly afraid of being out in fog. Some even seem apprehensive of an inevitable collision with those enormous container vessels sighted at 10 n.mi. distant in clear conditions!! So, forgive, but I think your lesson here might be "wasted" on that point.

 

[Rick486]

On our boat in the fog my wife watches the radar and I look ahead.....works well with many years of experience...

 

[jssailem]

radio direction finder on station

That brings back memories...

The short of it is since the adoption of the present 1977/980 regulations, many - probably most - courts do not find the half the distance rule of thumb to be of much use.

But Charles we both know that it is the lawyer who will argue the use of the rule if they think it will help their client. And it will be up to the opposing side to know that the rule is base less and has been repealed.

 

[LeslieTroyer]

les, we all know about holding tank and pumpout stations. big fines. there are no pumpout stations for ships up here on the inland seas. funny how that goes. follow the money and you'll see how law enforcment works.

Their holding tanks are big enough and most can also use ballast tanks for waist so they just wait till out in the Straights or in international waters. BTW some cruise ships have paid big fines for illegal dumping.

Les

 

[Charles Erwin]

;
But Charles we both know that it is the lawyer who will argue the use of the rule if they think it will help their client. And it will be up to the opposing side to know that the rule is base less and has been repealed.

This half the distance (rule of thumb) has not itself been repealed. Congress does not repeal judge made law exactly. The argument that half the distance is useful behavior might be available (to both sides) if the facts of a case justify that kind of argument. But it is just argument- not controlling law. Put another way such rules of thumb are not something that automatically controls the outcome of any particular case. It would be the rare case where any rule of thumb would be worth the effort particularly when one considers all of the other circumstances that might add up to whether one complied with Rule 6 - to say noting about compliance with the rest of the rules lookout, give way, stand on, and so forth.

Charles

 

[Kings Gambit]

This half the distance (rule of thumb) has not itself been repealed. Congress does not repeal judge made law exactly. The argument that half the distance is useful behavior might be available (to both sides) if the facts of a case justify that kind of argument. But it is just argument- not controlling law. Put another way such rules of thumb are not something that automatically controls the outcome of any particular case. It would be the rare case where any rule of thumb would be worth the effort particularly when one considers all of the other circumstances that might add up to whether one complied with Rule 6 - to say noting about compliance with the rest of the rules lookout, give way, stand on, and so forth.

Charles

So, an outcome can be decided based on who followed a "rule of thumb" that really is not a rule; although it may be a thumb (or finger) in somebody's eye ; that hardly any sailors of today know about, and that has evidently been discredited, to be found only in law books that hardly anybody but a lawyer, law clerk, or paralegal can find, read, and understand. Is that it?

 

[Charles Erwin]

That is about it. Many have said the ColRegs are mostly about assigning fault (fault = who pays) and not very much about actually preventing collisions. For many of us an adequate insurance contract is the answer. That way you get your boat fixed (no maritime issues there) and you get to leave all these pesky issues to the carriers.

Charles

 

[jon hansen]

.......... yes, but only if you want to spend vast amounts of money on all kinds of high maintenance equipment that are only partial tools that seduce some into a false sense of security while running blind in a dense fog.

 

[jssailem]

to be found only in law books that hardly anybody but a lawyer ..... can find, read, and understand. Is that it?

That is about it.

That is why they get the big bucks. They can find, read understand, and make an argument about it.

 

[Gene Neill]

The newbies I know, and have known, are deathly afraid of being out in fog. Some even seem apprehensive of an inevitable collision with those enormous container vessels sighted at 10 n.mi. distant in clear conditions!! So, forgive, but I think your lesson here might be "wasted" on that point.

I'm that newbie. But around here, it's not container ships, it's A-hole fishing boats (recreational, not commercial) who run full speed in the fog - and these boats are not typically equipped with radar, AIS, or any electronics not oriented toward catching one more medium-sized grouper or snapper.

It's terrifying to listen to them roaring by, totally blind, totally deaf, and totally unconcerned.

Only luck keeps you alive, only BAD luck keeps them alive.