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Time for a new headsail(s). What to buy?

Jul 28, 2016
85
476 Wavelength
I am winding up my second season racing my CP-22. Standard rig, wing keel, set up with race package. My headsail inventory is pretty much awful. I have replaced the main and spinnaker, but I currently have a 13 year old tape-drive 155% and the original dacron jib that came with the boat when new.

So, what are you sailing with? I have hanks - no furler - and I am trying to decide what sail to buy. I am thinking a 135 - 140% Genoa may be a better fit than a 155. This boat does not respond well when overpowered. I can see sailing with a smaller genoa, and a blade jib being the right sail for 95% of the sailing I do.

Thoughts?
 
Aug 9, 2011
995
Beneteau 310 Cheney KS (Wichita)
First, you may find that the boat isn't as overpowered with the 150-155 with a new sail. Old sail is probably blown out and deep so more power than a new one might be. Second, have you tried sailing with the big headsail and a reef in the main? Some boats like that setup and go better than a full main and small jib. On my J24 it was 150 until you had to go to the 100 and never reefed. On the B310, she likes a full 155 with a single reef in the main above about 16-17 knots of breeze. Below that its full main and 155. We'll furl the jib to about a 100-120 above about 22-24.
 
Jul 31, 2010
29
Catalina Capri 22 39 Seneca, SC
@JRacer is describing my old 155 for sure - it gets overpowered easily and performs poorly upwind. I purchased a new-ish 135 a couple of years ago and it is my go-to sail for cruising. My sails also hank on and I was too often having to swap between the 110 and 155 as the wind changed or to sail upwind to make it home.

Not sure if the headsail below is a 155/150 but it looks about right either way.

 
Nov 21, 2012
520
Catalina Capri 22 http://www.chelseayacht.org
I went with a tri-radial dacron sail. Great in light to lite-medium. Hank on. Had a roller furler 135 which I converted to hank-ons. use that a a goof around sail.

Got the 150 from FX sails.

Thinking about getting a jib small enough to use the inboard tracks. But then again -- if the wind is that strong the big displacement boats cut through the chop and will walk away.

Hershey
 
Dec 21, 2016
17
Is there anyone who has actually used a 100% blade sail on the Capri with the racing package? I am interested in any performance advice, sail dimensions, cloth weight, etc?
Dave
2005 TRFK
 
Jul 17, 2013
47
859 Amaryllis
Is there anyone who has actually used a 100% blade sail on the Capri with the racing package? I am interested in any performance advice, sail dimensions, cloth weight, etc?
Dave
2005 TRFK
I would be interested in this info, too. Hoping someone with this experience chimes in!

Charlie
 
Feb 16, 2017
146
259 TBD
Yes, I have a 107% jib that I sheet inside of the cabin top tracks. See pic below. The posts above describe any old sail for any one. As sails get old the draft moves aft. It can move aft as much 15-20%. This can be seen best when you hoist a new and take a picture of sail when sailing to weather (close hauled). What to look for... the sail to be parallel to the shrouds at the deck to spreaders. When the sail gets older the middle of the sail at the spreaders will be further away from the spreader and tighter or straighter at the turnbuckles at the deck.
As the sail gets older we tend to make up for this by using more halyard tension. The problem is with more halyard tension this decreases headstay sag, and flattens out the sail. This reduces power to punch through chop, pointing, and increases leeway.
Regarding my jib, in short it's increadably FAST! The sail is sheeted from 4"-10" off centerline. See pictures below...Here is the trick to this the Main and Jib needs to be designed for this. Just because the clew is really far inboard does not mean the leach is also.
The boat will only sail so fast, my target speed on both tacks in 10 knots true wind speed is 5.9 knots of boat speed, at 12-15 degrees of heel, with 600 lbs of crew weight.
With my setup we sail slower than S2 7.9's and j 24s but we sail 1-2 degrees higher. My trick is not to sail faster because we can't, but to use the sail plan to and natural pointing abilities to sail a shorter course. With regards to reeling a Capri 22, use more twist in the main, adjust your shrouds, the boat will develop more lee helm with a reef and the bow will dive to leeward on waves and puffs. This is the wrong way!
This the best way I have found to win races against faster bigger boats, sail target speeds and sail a shorter course.
 

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Feb 16, 2017
146
259 TBD
General dimensions of my blades:
  • 3 short battens
  • Clew of the jib is approximately 6" above the cabin top
  • If I remember correctly my LP is 8'-7"
  • Cloth weight varies as I have 2 blades
  • Light and heavy
I will explain the 2 blades remark, the boat is faster with a smaller jib and a full main with twist!

  • Membrane Lt jib 100% hoist 30' Luff 107% LP. 10-17 knot true speed
  • Dacron 6.5 oz Hvy jib 80% hoist 24' Luff 90% LP 16+ wind speed
I leave both sails up sailing downwind with AP Asymmetrical spinnaker. The boat hauls ASS!
It will plane, last summer in 20 true we were planning at 15+ knots boat speed!
 
Dec 21, 2016
17
This is very useful. thank you. Two questions for now:
- I am wondering about the performance gain from using the athwartships track to get the 4" to 10" adjustment. Did you have previous experience using the original cabin top tracks? Were these same blades used on the original tracks?
- for the heavier blade .. I see that you went to a shorter luff. I assume the clew position is the same for both blades, and you use the shorter luff just to keep the total sq ft less, for the stronger winds?
Dave
 
Feb 16, 2017
146
259 TBD
I chose the jib track location by looking at and understanding technology and personal experience. I used to live in SoCal and I owned a Piece of Shit Cal 20. I was racing against a some of the best sailors in the country and it's a full on arms race! I was 10 years late to the Cal 20 party and $30,000 short. All I had was a light boat that was stiff, a good rig and well thought out rigging with awesome sails. The same sailmaker I still use and sell sails for 27 years later. Needless to say after wining a big regatta my crew Tom Leweck ( yes the founder of scuttlebutt) said as we were lifting the boat out the water by a crane, Tom looks up and says in front of the whole fleet "you know if you would fair this boat the keel and paint it, I wouldn't have to work so darn hard!) I said Tom your right the boat does have some speed to gain.
Sailing Cal 20's taught me a big lesson in sail trim of a small jibs, twist, twist and more twist....
Oh did I mention twist is fast.
I truly feel that athwartship tracks are the best way to sail. When I put a boat together I choose a boat that I can set up the way I like to sail. I like floating leads, not moving to make a sail adjustments, plenty of purchase and big winches. Cal 20's don't point the keel is 3/4" thick like a star boat. We use twartship tracks as well. I one thing I figured out how to do, was to get the floating lead 2" further inboard than everyone else.
Adjustability is the key on how to figure a boat out. It takes time a lot of tweaking trying different things and an understanding what your ass is telling you when your sailing the boat. Simply put, I sail by the seat of my ass!
  • If your struggling to control the boat you have to much sail area up.
  • If the boat is not pointing the rig is not in the right place.
  • If you have to much whether helm the rig is in the wrong place
  • If your slow and racing one design you don't have enough twist.
  • If your slow and can't point you have to much twist.
There are a lot of givens in the stated above I will write more about them as time permits..
With regards to your questions.
No, my Jibs don't fit the OEM tracks, the small jib is actually the same Luff length as the standard rig it's just the foot is shorter. If I were to build another small jib I would take another 2 feet off of the Luff. I like sailing with full mains. I hate reefing the main and avoid it as much as possible, especially fractional rig boats.
 
Dec 21, 2016
17
I did a bunch of measuring on my 2005 FKTR today to try to decide on the correct blade shape. I see now, that the original cabin top tracks that I have are not very good for the blade I envision. I started out thinking I want the following approx dimensions 28.75 ' luff (with my furler), 8.16' foot (100%). I wanted to keep to the 50% rule .. straight line from 50% up the luff, through the clew, to the center of the track. The only way to get all that, is with a clew that is very high off the deck .. looks a bit ridiculous actually.

So .. if I want that sail shape .. one way to get it quite easily, is to extend the existing tracks .. maybe 8" or so, not sure yet. Looking at odj22sailor's track arrangement, it seems to confirm the 8" might work ok.

any comments appreciated
Dave
ps .. I would like to understand the reasoning behind "If I were to build another small jib I would take another 2 feet off of the Luff."
 
Feb 7, 2010
53
Catalina Capri 22 MKII 1097 Grove, OK
I did a bunch of measuring on my 2005 FKTR today to try to decide on the correct blade shape. I see now, that the original cabin top tracks that I have are not very good for the blade I envision. I started out thinking I want the following approx dimensions 28.75 ' luff (with my furler), 8.16' foot (100%). I wanted to keep to the 50% rule .. straight line from 50% up the luff, through the clew, to the center of the track. The only way to get all that, is with a clew that is very high off the deck .. looks a bit ridiculous actually.

So .. if I want that sail shape .. one way to get it quite easily, is to extend the existing tracks .. maybe 8" or so, not sure yet. Looking at odj22sailor's track arrangement, it seems to confirm the 8" might work ok.

any comments appreciated
Dave
ps .. I would like to understand the reasoning behind "If I were to build another small jib I would take another 2 feet off of the Luff."
I went through the same problem/debate on my 2005 with a 110%. I sent the first one back to the dealer as it was way too high and they sent me a new one. They called it a racing design 110% and it hit my tracks perfectly. I believe they just lengthened the leach. ( some might call it a deck sweeper) If you want, I'll measure it the next time I'm at the lake. It is on a TuffLuff not a Furler.
 
Jun 25, 2004
507
Corsair F24 Mk1 003 San Francisco Bay, CA
I did a bunch of measuring on my 2005 FKTR today to try to decide on the correct blade shape. I see now, that the original cabin top tracks that I have are not very good for the blade I envision. I started out thinking I want the following approx dimensions 28.75 ' luff (with my furler), 8.16' foot (100%). I wanted to keep to the 50% rule .. straight line from 50% up the luff, through the clew, to the center of the track. The only way to get all that, is with a clew that is very high off the deck .. looks a bit ridiculous actually.

So .. if I want that sail shape .. one way to get it quite easily, is to extend the existing tracks .. maybe 8" or so, not sure yet. Looking at odj22sailor's track arrangement, it seems to confirm the 8" might work ok.

any comments appreciated
Dave
ps .. I would like to understand the reasoning behind "If I were to build another small jib I would take another 2 feet off of the Luff."
That 50% rule isn’t a real rule. It’s a huge over simplification. It’s a worth while exercise to do a thought experiment using 50%, but it’s not going to result in a sail optimized for what ever you want to do with the sail. It’s instructive to work through the implications, but it’s not a sufficient.

The “50% up the luff approximation” is useful for identifying the edge dimensionsof a used sail that will work fairly well. The used sail should trim without glaringly inadequate control of leech tension,. But it’s definitely not specific enough to guide the design of a specificly sized headsail, that’s optimized for a specific purpose.

For a high aspect blade optimized for pointing (at the expense of reaching) you usually want a more vertical angle on the sheet angle ray, to control leech twist more effectively. For a comparatively lower aspect Genoa, such as a 155, you want to use a flatter angle. And for roller reefing headsails, It’s a whole different set of considerations.

Please note well that the vertical sheet angle ray doesn’t have to terminate in the middle of the Genoa teak. it just has to terminate somewhere ON the track.

IMO, If you’re ordering new sail, the designer can tell you what the optimized dimensions s to fit your existing track. Or tell you exactly where to place a new lender of track.

To do that, you should tell the sail loft what you want the sail to do, Listen to his/her advice, get measurements of the rig and deck layout, according to their instructions. and then let the designer do the design for you.

Judy B
 
Last edited:
Dec 21, 2016
17
2005 Capri 22 FKTR racing package
Thank you for this Judy. What I would tell the sail loft about "what I want to do with the sail": .. I want an alternative to the 155 for when my wife and I (seniors), or me and my young grandson go out for a pleasant daysail. I want something easy to tack. And I want the sail to look good on my boat. But given that, I don't want to give up performance where I don't have too. I will expect good upwind performance in a decent wind and good pointing ability. I will be OK with giving up broad reaching and downwind performance.
I believe the existing cabin top track (racing package) is located for use with a low luff, high clew #3 jib .. not with the high luff, low clew "blade" type sail that I think will meet my needs.
I have done some careful measurements on the boat, and I know where the clew would be located for a ~100% blade type jib. From that I know that I would need to extend the cabin top track forward (or make some other arrangement) to get the jib sheet lead angle at least close to the 50% "rule". What I don't know is .. if I give my specifications to a sail maker .. can I be sure they will give me a sail properly designed for draft / stress points etc. Or do I need to let them give ME the dimensions of the sail they are capable of making ?
any thoughts on that would be appreciated.
Dave
 
Jun 25, 2004
507
Corsair F24 Mk1 003 San Francisco Bay, CA
2005 Capri 22 FKTR racing package
Thank you for this Judy. What I would tell the sail loft about "what I want to do with the sail": .. I want an alternative to the 155 for when my wife and I (seniors), or me and my young grandson go out for a pleasant daysail. I want something easy to tack. And I want the sail to look good on my boat. But given that, I don't want to give up performance where I don't have too. I will expect good upwind performance in a decent wind and good pointing ability. I will be OK with giving up broad reaching and downwind performance.
I believe the existing cabin top track (racing package) is located for use with a low luff, high clew #3 jib .. not with the high luff, low clew "blade" type sail that I think will meet my needs.
I have done some careful measurements on the boat, and I know where the clew would be located for a ~100% blade type jib. From that I know that I would need to extend the cabin top track forward (or make some other arrangement) to get the jib sheet lead angle at least close to the 50% "rule". What I don't know is .. if I give my specifications to a sail maker .. can I be sure they will give me a sail properly designed for draft / stress points etc. Or do I need to let them give ME the dimensions of the sail they are capable of making ?
any thoughts on that would be appreciated.
Dave
Dave,

You are very welcome.

I really think what you propose to do is likely to result in an inferior sail shape. If you asked me to build the sail for you based on your specification, I would decline to accept your business. Under those circumstances, I couldn’t guarantee you will be happy with the fit, the flying shape and the performance.

Again, my advice is find a good sailmaker/designer and tell them what you want the sail to do. Let them take measurements ( or you can fill out their forms). Tell them you would be willing to add tracks. They will tell you what your options are and should be able to stand behind their product under those circumstances.

Judy B
 
Last edited:
Feb 7, 2010
53
Catalina Capri 22 MKII 1097 Grove, OK
that would be great .. thanks
Dave
Dave, I'll try to go ahead and measure this weekend, but I see you have a TR and my sail was for my SR before I changed the mast out to a Tall Rig. BTW, I have a 110% Racing Jib on order to fit the TR but don't expect to get it for another 5 weeks.

Jim
 
Dec 21, 2016
17
Maybe I wasn't clear enough .. I am filling out the forms the sailmaker (broker?) sends me. So I have to deliver my expectations for the sail, and all those measurements on the form. That is why I used the term "my specifications".

I know the existing track is not going to work for a low clew, blade type sail. So there is not much point in giving the sailmaker those existing track measurements on his form. I need to go beyond saying I am willing to add track .. but to decide if tracks can be practically added to my boat, exactly where, how long etc. I have to consider jib lead angle, at least initially, for the matching clew position.

Once I've done all that, hopefully the sailmaker can tell me if they can construct a good performing sail to those specs, and if not, why not.

does that clarify?
Dave
 
Dec 21, 2016
17
Dave, I'll try to go ahead and measure this weekend, but I see you have a TR and my sail was for my SR before I changed the mast out to a Tall Rig. BTW, I have a 110% Racing Jib on order to fit the TR but don't expect to get it for another 5 weeks.

Jim
Jim .. do you have the dimensions for the jib that is on order?
 
Jun 25, 2004
507
Corsair F24 Mk1 003 San Francisco Bay, CA
Maybe I wasn't clear enough .. I am filling out the forms the sailmaker (broker?) sends me. So I have to deliver my expectations for the sail, and all those measurements on the form. That is why I used the term "my specifications".

I know the existing track is not going to work for a low clew, blade type sail. So there is not much point in giving the sailmaker those existing track measurements on his form. I need to go beyond saying I am willing to add track .. but to decide if tracks can be practically added to my boat, exactly where, how long etc. I have to consider jib lead angle, at least initially, for the matching clew position.

Once I've done all that, hopefully the sailmaker can tell me if they can construct a good performing sail to those specs, and if not, why not.

does that clarify?
Dave


You need to discuss this with your sale person. If s/he he doesn’t offer this higher level of service, you may need to go else where to commission your sail . You may have to pay more, because you’re using up more of the two well-trained and talented people’s time.

If they have enough training, they can instruct you how to measure the rig (including shroud locations) and reference points on the deck to determine the optimal geodesic edges of the sail. If the sales person isn’t well trained enough, a more senior person can teach them. But not all places that sell bespoke Sails are set up to offer that high level of custom service. There are many different business models for selling sails.

There are lots of distributors or brokers who can do what you need. I ran a big distrubution business for a major name brand for a long time. We used to do exactly what you need.

Judy B