Some tiller boats have transom hung rudders. But most modem tiller boats have a fixed rudder well forward of the transom. If the boat can be offered in either configuration (like our 367), they have to.
Tiller vs. wheel steering on 34-40 ft boats
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I've only had tillers. A Catalina 25 and now a Globe 38 with a barn door rudder. The tiller really lets you know if your sheeted correctly. On the Globe the cockpit is large and space isn't a problem and we have a pin rail so the tiller can be locked in and I can make small heading changes with mizzen adjustments.
Some of us probably accidentally miss a few characters in a thread title when we are enthusiastic about pursuing an invalid argument.
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The thread was originally about 34-40 foot boats. Many posts by those in the 25 foot range and the over 30 range. In my very limited understanding of pleasure boats there is a BIG difference between a 25 and 40 foot boat in size fit finish etc. Seems to me that it would sort of be standard for a 25 foot sailboat to be OEM tiller equipped and a 40 foot ocean liner be equipped with a wheel so.....
Never mind I have no point other than the one on the top of my 'ead.
My point, topcat. Perhaps you joined late and did not see my other posts. I was trying to make several points:
Most who post in support of a tiller are 25 footers who don't sail the larger size. How would they know the answer to the question?
I was trying to agree that a wheel on a 25 ft. boat is probably not needed and a tiller is better, but the situation is different with a larger boat.
What I did not say, and should have said, is that I sailed my Irwin 32 for almost 15 years with a tiller. When I decided to get a different boat, a wheel was one of my must haves as I had learned the draw backs of a tiller on a larger boat.
Most who post in support of a tiller are 25 footers who don't sail the larger size. How would they know the answer to the question?
I was trying to agree that a wheel on a 25 ft. boat is probably not needed and a tiller is better, but the situation is different with a larger boat.
What I did not say, and should have said, is that I sailed my Irwin 32 for almost 15 years with a tiller. When I decided to get a different boat, a wheel was one of my must haves as I had learned the draw backs of a tiller on a larger boat.
Preference for wheel
My boat is in that range (27') where it could be a tiller or a wheel ... and it was sold both ways, (with a balanced spade rudder forward of the transom). I've thought about changing to tiller steering, but I think it would only be suitable if the boat was used strictly for single-handing. The cockpit is simply too small to accommodate the shifting around that would be necessary when tacking or jibing over. Plus, I find that with the winch positions being aft and the bridgedeck-mounted traveler, the lines are more easily managed from behind the pedestal. Far more were sold as wheel-steered, I believe, based on re-sales. (Perhaps the tiller-steered versions were junked!)
But that does lead to my problem ... I like to sit aside the wheel and even slightly forward, in a position where I would sit if I had a tiller. With a smaller diameter wheel, I can climb around the wheel (T-shaped cockpit - also designed for wheel) more easily, but I would like a larger diameter wheel to make the reach more comfortable.
In the end, I think the wheel is more practical on my 27' boat, and was intentionally designed for it (I think). I wouldn't change it to a tiller. I don't think I would make a purchase decision based on whether or not a boat had wheel or tiller in the 30-34' range, and I certainly wouldn't think about purchasing a boat with the thought of changing it one way or the other. I think it is more likely that I would turn away from a boat in that size range if it were tiller-steered, though. I think I would find more disadvantages. Just a personal choice though, in many respects.
Photo shows how I prefer to sit when underway ...
and Sue ... oversteering as usual
(JK)
Three is about all our cockpit is good for ... and the girls don't like being disturbed!
My boat is in that range (27') where it could be a tiller or a wheel ... and it was sold both ways, (with a balanced spade rudder forward of the transom). I've thought about changing to tiller steering, but I think it would only be suitable if the boat was used strictly for single-handing. The cockpit is simply too small to accommodate the shifting around that would be necessary when tacking or jibing over. Plus, I find that with the winch positions being aft and the bridgedeck-mounted traveler, the lines are more easily managed from behind the pedestal. Far more were sold as wheel-steered, I believe, based on re-sales. (Perhaps the tiller-steered versions were junked!)
But that does lead to my problem ... I like to sit aside the wheel and even slightly forward, in a position where I would sit if I had a tiller. With a smaller diameter wheel, I can climb around the wheel (T-shaped cockpit - also designed for wheel) more easily, but I would like a larger diameter wheel to make the reach more comfortable.
In the end, I think the wheel is more practical on my 27' boat, and was intentionally designed for it (I think). I wouldn't change it to a tiller. I don't think I would make a purchase decision based on whether or not a boat had wheel or tiller in the 30-34' range, and I certainly wouldn't think about purchasing a boat with the thought of changing it one way or the other. I think it is more likely that I would turn away from a boat in that size range if it were tiller-steered, though. I think I would find more disadvantages. Just a personal choice though, in many respects.
Photo shows how I prefer to sit when underway ...
and Sue ... oversteering as usual
(JK)Three is about all our cockpit is good for ... and the girls don't like being disturbed!
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Scott, that's a great post. You are right, all boats are compromises, and a big one, in particular in smaller boats, is cockpit room. Many times steering choices are dictated by that, along with fashion. Wheels (in particular SMALL wheels) take up much less space. But speaking of fashion, I'm sorry but this is taking it too far. The wheel ends up being so small that the only thing you can do is stand behind it. It just does not seem to be designed to be sailed. Maybe that's just my definition
Back to bigger boats, with some planning both tillers and wheels will work. New designs have sorted out the heavy tiller/rudder feel that used to make wheels almost mandatory, and a cockpit can be laid out to work well with both. Then it becomes a pure issue of what works best for you. This was not necessarily true with older designs. And remember , boats this size would have a below-decks autopilot in either case, and it works exactly the same for the tiller as it does for the wheel.
Here is a First 36.7 with a wheel. The removable seats are taken out, and the T-shaped cockpit works. The mainsheet trimmer sits just in front of the wheel pyramid. The big wheel extends to where it can be used with the driver on the rail.
Now the same boat with the tiller. The cockpit seats can go back in, the the mainsheet trimmer sit behind the driver. With a Spinlock tiller extender the driver sits on the rail.
Our smaller boat is tiller, and our big boat is wheel. I would never think of a wheel on the First 260, and happily it was never offered. The 36.7 came both ways but in the USA the One Design rules say wheel only. If that was not the case I might have gone tiller.
If its important to you, think about resale. But you only live once. Buy the one you want.
My own personal experience is that a wheel is more intuitive to learn than a tiller because it's like driving a car, which is the reason I was looking in vain for a small-ish boat with a wheel three years ago. Instead, I found a Mac 25 with a tiller, and found that I quickly adapted to the tiller and think it's perfect for my boat. (Maybe that's why it was designed with one, huh?) However, my wife, who admittedly spends a lot less time on the boat than I do, is still not comfortable with the tiller since it's just not intuitive to her. She gets confused every time she goes out and often gets flustered as well.
Some people just have an affinity for one mode of steering or another regardless of the logic that may be involved.
After a couple of decades of only sailing boats with tillers, I finally got a 'big' boat with a wheel (Pearson 32). It's kind of funny, but for quite a while I would occasionally find myself turning the wheel the wrong way. All what you're used to.
well... I am beginning to feel the the general opinion amungst the crowd that gathers here....
and my question was answered a long way back
...but i was just looking at the hallberg rassy website and planning my next move after i win the lottery, and I see that they have a a few larger models with tillers...
maybe this wheel vs tiller thing is a bit regional, but other than resale value, no one has convinced me that one is better than the other, except in personal preference only....
I'll add one thing. We have a tiller on the 26 foot Mac and a wheel on the 37 foot Endeavour.
With the Mac while docking or anchoring...
http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/macgregor2/outside-29.html
... we have a quick attach bar between the outboard tiller and the rudder tiller. Ruth or I can sit there and with the one tiller easily move the boat forward or astern into about anyplace so it is perfect.
I would not want the tiller on the Endeavour while trying to dock. I have much better vision forward and to the sides standing behind the wheel and the throttle and gear shift are right there in a convenient place next to the wheel. Even though the boat is not as responsive as the Mac (way larger in every aspect) it is easy to maneuver standing at the wheel with the throttle and shifter there in a logical place to use them, which you will be doing every time you bring the boat in or anchor in a difficult location.
I also feel that most boats that have a wheel or larger and sail in areas where they are on the same tack for much longer periods of time vs. those who have smaller boats and tend to sail in more confined areas where they are tacking more often. As has been mentioned I feel the wheel is easier on you in those situations. On the Mac and where we have lake sailed with her I preferred the tiller.
I think overall the wheel on a larger boat is just not a marketing deal. It just makes a lot of sense, especially if you are a cruiser and not a racer,
Sum
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Our Endeavour 37
Our MacGregor 26-S Pages
Our Trips to Utah, Idaho, Canada, Florida
Mac-Venture Links
With the Mac while docking or anchoring...
http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/macgregor2/outside-29.html
... we have a quick attach bar between the outboard tiller and the rudder tiller. Ruth or I can sit there and with the one tiller easily move the boat forward or astern into about anyplace so it is perfect.
I would not want the tiller on the Endeavour while trying to dock. I have much better vision forward and to the sides standing behind the wheel and the throttle and gear shift are right there in a convenient place next to the wheel. Even though the boat is not as responsive as the Mac (way larger in every aspect) it is easy to maneuver standing at the wheel with the throttle and shifter there in a logical place to use them, which you will be doing every time you bring the boat in or anchor in a difficult location.
I also feel that most boats that have a wheel or larger and sail in areas where they are on the same tack for much longer periods of time vs. those who have smaller boats and tend to sail in more confined areas where they are tacking more often. As has been mentioned I feel the wheel is easier on you in those situations. On the Mac and where we have lake sailed with her I preferred the tiller.
I think overall the wheel on a larger boat is just not a marketing deal. It just makes a lot of sense, especially if you are a cruiser and not a racer,
Sum
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]============================[/FONT]
Our Endeavour 37
Our MacGregor 26-S Pages
Our Trips to Utah, Idaho, Canada, Florida
Mac-Venture Links
I don't think one is better than the other. It's a matter of what you like. We bought a Legend 37 that I'm refitting and the wheel and pedestal is coming out. I'm going to extend the rudder post through the cockpit floor and convert it to tiller. Why? My wife prefers to be at the helm more than any other place on the boat when underway. She learned with a tiller and is what she likes. Plus the steering in the boat has problems anyway with wire hair growing out of the cable and a lot of slack in it (knew that we bought it).no one has convinced me that one is better than the other, except in personal preference only....
Have you used it some with the present wheel so you can compare before and after?
The previous owner of our Endeavour was planning on extended off-shore passages and spent quite a bit having a bracket and tiller made that could be attached to the stock emergency tiller connect point at the base of the pedestal. Hope we don't have to ever use it,
Sum
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]============================[/FONT]
Our Endeavour 37
Our MacGregor 26-S Pages
Our Trips to Utah, Idaho, Canada, Florida
Mac-Venture Links
No, we just bought the Legend 37 in early December and haven't sailed it yet. I hauled it home on my lowboy so I could work on it though. The helm placement in the Legend 37 is kind of tight to the aft of the cockpit and hard to get around it. It was one of the things we didn't like about the boat. But I figured not too hard to fix. We have sailed plenty of other boats with wheel helm and we both prefer a tiller over the wheel in any boat we have been on. The feedback from a wheel tends to be a little vague in my opinion, and it just seems that with a tiller you tend to have a better feel for what the boat is doing. One of those personal preference things
Well I am looking at two boats with tillers, specfically becasue they have tillers. A 36 foot boat and a 34. I like the feel of a tiller but for me it is also the simplicity of it. A tiller is one less system to maintain, as there are no gears, wheels, wires, chains or other complicated mechanisms to go wrong. Now I would not make a decision just on tiller VS wheel, it is close up there to the top. The tiller is much superior in reliability. Heck even tiller pilots are less than a third the cost.
I also sail regularly on a 108 foot sailboat with a tiller and it is easy to sail, though I would not try single handing her!
I also sail regularly on a 108 foot sailboat with a tiller and it is easy to sail, though I would not try single handing her!
Yes, we like that too - the fact that it is simpler. But we also like that we can swing the tiller up out of the way and the cockpit is open and uncluttered so we can cook on the grille, or relax in the cockpit without stumbling over the pedestal (even with the wheel removed).
On the other hand the pedestal is nice because you can put instruments et al on it, and your shift lever for the engine. But I'm going to invent something for that with the tiller in our Legend 37 that is removable. I don't know what that will be yet, but it'll come to me when I do the tiller conversion and then I'll build it.
The main thing for us is not that it's better to have a tiller than a wheel because one is more reliable, etc.. Just that we like the cockpit completely open because we spend the vast majority of our time in it. The cockpit, to us, is as important for room and doing the relaxing things onboard that the below deck living amenities are. The only time we'll typically go below deck for any amount of time is in bad weather.
i enjoy the feel of a tiller, but my sensibilities convinced me that a wheel for a 28000 pound heavy displacement cruiser is a lot less painful to handle in heavy weather especially when one has a lovely hydraulic autopilot.
yes i have sailed both. was taught with 36 ft gaff rigged sloop.
i LOVE my wheel with autopilot. makes long passages easier.
yes i have sailed both. was taught with 36 ft gaff rigged sloop.
i LOVE my wheel with autopilot. makes long passages easier.