Tiller pilot on a wheel steering boat converted from a tiller

[Hermit Scott]

Wheel steering was added to this boat after production. The head of the rudder post is visible in the picture just below the cooler where Jeannette is sitting. Since tiller pilots are so much cheaper, I was wondering if I could make a tiller that came off of that head directly to port, 90 degrees from where a normal tiller would be positioned. Then have the tiller pilot mounted there parallel to the centerline of the boat.
(1) Is it possible to mount tiller pilots this way? I read a manual and it didn't say it was or wasn't possible. I have never played with a tiller pilot, I don't know exactly how they work.
(2) Will there be too much friction because of the cables and mechanism of the wheel?

 

[David in Sandusky]

My guesses

1. While it might be possible to fit a tiller pilot in, it would block off foot room in the aft end of the cockpit.
2. I don't think it would work very well against the mechanical advantage of the wheel assembly. You could check this by measuring the force require to turn the emergency tiller with the wheel engaged.

 

[higgs]

You will need to find out mounting specs of the unit you are considering. They will call for the unit to be mounted a specific distance forward of the rudder post and this may very well put your wheel's pedestal in the way of the tiller you will need to mount.

 

[Hermit Scott]

The manual did spec the distance from the rudder post at 18". I wasn't going to run the tiller straight forward. I was going to run it to the side so I could still stand behind the wheel. I will draw a diagram of what I intend.
It really does come down to price for me. The simrad tiller pilot for my boat is $450 and a wheel pilot will be $1000. The furler I need is $1000. If it was $500 I would already have it.

 

[Roger Long]

It's going to take a pretty hefty tiller pilot to steer a boat the size of yours that way. Be sure to check the vessel size requirements. It will be a pain to rig and unrig. One of the units that drives the wheel probably won't cost a enough more to justify the aggravation of the jury rig you describe.

 

[Hermit Scott]

It's going to take a pretty hefty tiller pilot to steer a boat the size of yours that way. Be sure to check the vessel size requirements. It will be a pain to rig and unrig. One of the units that drives the wheel probably won't cost a enough more to justify the aggravation of the jury rig you describe.

This is what I am thinking. Click on the picture and you can rotate it around a bit if it's hard to tell what it is.

 

[jibes138]

Questions for the experts

A tiller pilot or wheel pilot receives its' instructions from a control unit. The control unit is set to a desired heading based on a compass and then the feedback loop is set to a desired accuracy for overshoot and undershoot. In order to tell the actuator how much to actuate there has to be defined conditions of orientation and length of the pivot arm.
So I'm curious if orienting the actuator in a different location as Scott is suggesting will have effect on performance, in other words will the control system fail to control. The reason I ask is I once has a wheel pilot, the old type with a motor near the floor and a big belt around the wheel and wires going all over the cockpit. I mounted the control unit 180 degrees out of position and set the setting for the track I wanted as 180 degrees opposite the direction I was heading, the boat would appaer to the unit as if it was going backward, but in my warped mind it seems like it should control the same. The boats started going in circles, so I decided to steer with my hands instead. I guess my question is how do these units control?

 

[Ed Schenck]

My 18000# displ. 37-footer came with a tiller pilot. Only it connected to the wheel, never was there a tiller on my boat. The long rod had two fingers that engaged the bottom vertical spoke of the wheel. The head mounted on the starboard cockpit, about knee high. The orientation of the unit did not matter because you simply dial in a heading. Having written all of that I never tried it. It seems to be that the stroke would have been insufficient for anything but minor corrections.

As soon as I bought the boat I installed a Navico(Simrad) WP30. Maybe best investment I ever made. It steered the boat in heavy Atlantic and Gulf seas for day after day. Ten years old and never a problem.

 

[Dan Johnson]

Hermit...

when installing the rudder sensor for the S-1 Autopilot on my H34's steering quadrant bolted to the rudder post below deck, I found it took a great deal of effort to turn the quandrant a just a little bit to work out the alignment. Once the friction in the cable blocks and the chain over the wheel drum was overcome, it turned easier. Mind you, this was whle the boat was sitting in its slip, not under load while sailing.

My take on this related to your proposed use of a tillerpilot is that it will not work anywhere near your expectations, and will probably burn up the tillerpilot as it tries to overcome the initial friction of the wheel steering system. You'll end up out the money for the tillerpilot and still need to buy the wheel helm unit.

As someone else pointed out, there is a great deal of leverage built into the wheel steering assembly that a wheel pilot uses when engaged. Its torque is then multiplied by the mechanical leverages of its diameter mounted on the wheel, and the wheel drum and steering quadrant diameters to turn the rudder. Your tillerpilot proposal would be acting directly on the rudder itself, with only the leverage of the 18 inch arm planned to multiply its effort. It would probably work well without the wheel steering connected, but then what's the point.

Tough decision: wheel pilot or furler. Which will afford you the greatest benefit in the short term, that is the question.

 

[Don12364]

Practical Considerations

Yes.
I fitted a tiller pilot on my 30' yacht at 18" from the rudder head - on a conventional tiller of course. Indeed, over time I had several pilots. The most successful was the Autohelm (now Raymarine) unit which had a ball screw ram. This low friction unit generated 100lbs of push/pull and was also quick enough to control the boat under spinnaker (in lightish conditions!).
In your case, if the unit has a built in Compass, this will need to be set 90° out from your intended direction.
Also you will need to make some form of quick disconnect to unhitch the pilot in an emergency. Conventional built in wheel pilots normally have a clutch and a red button to disconnect them instantly whilst belt driven pilots have a lever to slacken the belt.
Your pilot, whilst disconnected, will tend to swing about and may foul the new tiller arm when not connected, e.g. when sailing at a heel. For this reason it will need a 'parking' position.
Then again I presume you will not disconnect the wheel so someone grabbing the wheel in an emergency whilst the pilot was engaged will put a dreadful strain on the pilot and its mountings; but under normal circumstances it should drive the wheel okay.
Might be necessary to provide a cover so things cannot drop into the works and jam it all up. The pilot should be okay as it will just go into overload but the item trapped will be pretty mangled and where will the boat go whilst you are disentangling everything?
One other thing - the intended location of the pilot, if on the cockpit sole, looks as if it will get pretty wet at times.

This is not to put you off because, having installed pilots of all types for a living, I see no reason why your installation should not be successful - bearing in mind the caveats listed above.

 

[Tim R.]

Hermit, save your money until you can afford the correct pilot. A pilot is not a necessary piece of equipment. I rarely use mine and only while motoring long distances. Even then I sometimes do not use it as I am always overriding it to get around pot buoys.

 

[Dean5735]

Hermit GREAT IDEA, my C30 has what looks like the same set up in the rudder post. I took off my wheel pilot and threw it away. I like your idea and have some more of my own already for you. how about you make it with a riser then the tiller straight BACK and with enough length to give all the advantage you will need (before interfering with the rear stanchions. Then borrow a tiller pilot and try it! My friends have a tiller pilot and it seems wonderful compared to the Navico thing I had with the belts and big motor. I too have the seating problem, seat to low to see well, how about building a raised pedistal to clear the tiller and then you have a guarded tiller and easy access to the tiller pilot OFF button, I love the idea and will work on that myself.
Keep posting, Dean

 

[Stu Jackson]

Trim tab

Many long distance cruisers have wheel steered boats but use tiller pilots on trim tabs. As I understand the concept, the wheel is locked with the main rudder in a centered position and the tiller pilot is connected to an auxiliary rudder hung off pintles and gudgeons on the transom. That's one way to do it, and that's about all I know of the concept. If anyone knows more, I'm all ears.

I, too, have been toying with the idea of a tiller pilot as a backup. The first picture shows our starboard cockpit seat aft end and line up with the wheel. With a small bracket on the aft end of the cockpit seat the tiller pilot could work it's way over to the bottom spoke of the wheel. I also feel that this wouldn't be the best of all worlds because of the small degree of control it would afford, as noted by a previous reply.

Our rudder head is just behind my left foot in the picture, much like yours is, hermit, although not on the sole but raised up about 9 inches. I was thinking along the lines of using a modified emergency tiller - our ET is only an aluminum rod, only long enough to avoid hitting the spokes of the wheel; if modified it could house the pin required for the quick disconnect from the tiller which is a requirement - you MUST have a way to quickly disengage the pilot.

As for orientation: 180 degrees out of whack is covered in the manuals - you need to reverse wires. Our Autohelm ST3000 is mounted 90 degrees out of standard and works just fine - it's the original system initiation that "makes the call."

 

[Manny]

Ed, do you have pictures of the tiller pilot setup...

that was on your boat when you bought it? On more than one occasion I have given thought to mounting a tiller pilot on my wheel for minor corrections. I figured I could pick up a used one and try it. If it didn't work well I would just resell it.
I also wondered if it was possible to mount one on the quadrant but it sounds like there has to be easy & quick access to it to turn it off...
I met someone with a 40 ft (+/-) Cal that ended up mounting a tiller pilot to the pendulum of his weather vane self steering. He said it worked great and it used very little electricity since there wasn't much force.

Manny

 

[higgs]

I see the potential to set up a system that will never work right thus wasting $500. Might you not be better to wait and save the $ for the system designed for what you have?

With my past boats, I had a lot of trouble with tiller pilots. Inconsistent results. Sometimes great, other times doing things like going hard over with no warning. Never did figure it out on two tiller steered boats.

 

[Joe]

I have an old autohelm 1000 that has worked well for years mounted on my C27. Very simple, very reliable. I would hesitate to purchase the cheapes simrad tiller unit for a boat that size.... They are not as reliable as Autohelm(Raymarine). The mechanics of your idea seem to make sense and I think that with a little trial and error you could eventually get it to work....

However... I'm more inclined to agree with Higgs. The time spent trying to make it work, the cost of additional materials for the adaptation and the cost to upgrade to a more powerfull tiller unit would probably amount to more than a wheel pilot. Conversely, I have sailed on two boats using belt driven units....... 31 and 34 footers.. and quite frankly I was not impressed. I thought my little tiller model was superior. Below deck AP's are far superior, but as you point out, very expensive.

That said, I would be interested in seeing the result of your ingenuity. Since you have absolutely no experience with autopilots it will be fun to follow your adventure.

 

[Hermit Scott]

I have been fixing the cockpit drains lately and I had to keep moving the quadrant below deck back and forth by hand. The tiller pilots seem to provide between 100 to 150lbs of force. I am pushing it 6" away from the post, the pilot would be pushing 3 times that(18"). Mine was not that difficult to push around by hand.
My rudder post head is not on the floor it is at seat level, about a foot off the floor.
The manaul I read said the pilot was preset to be starboard but can be set to port if desired.
The seat on my C30 is entirely too low. I want it a little taller than the cooler in the pic, with a nice cushy seat like a lazy boy for motoring the ICW. (I sound like a power boater)
blowingand drigting-With the position of the rudder post head, I thought of going straight back and cutting the fiberglass so the auto pilot would be IN the back compartment. But I guess they need to be accesible. So having it above the seat would be best. That is probably the best idea; going straight back over the seat and building a seat above it, then the tiller pilot can sit in the position it was intended just 180 out. It would be more out of the way there also. With a quick release pin the emergency tiller is already in place. I like the idea of that a lot.

 

[Hermit Scott]

That said, I would be interested in seeing the result of your ingenuity. Since you have absolutely no experience with autopilots it will be fun to follow your adventure.

An honest man!

Stu- I like the idea of the trim tab hanging off the back with the autopilot attached.
I was looking at different designs of wind vanes.
In fluid dynamics class a few years back, I remember a story about how in the 60's that US started using computers to guide their missles. They had wings and flaps that took a lot of power to actuate. The russians used a method of two wings on one side of the missle, one small one in front and a larger one behind it. When a correction was desired the small wing would twist disrupting the airflow allowing the rear one to turn much easier. This is a little off topic for this post, but I think wind vanes are great inventions also. I wonder if this principle can be applied to wind vanes?

 

[Stu Jackson]

That IS the concept.

 

[druid]

I hate to discourage innovation! I think it would work (probably).

First, moving the "tiller" and autopilot 90 degrees around the rudder post will not affect orientation whatsoever: when you "train" the autopilot to heading it will sort it out. Next, I used to move the rudder on my C36 from side to side against the wheel when painting the hull every year, and although it took some "oomph" it was quite do-able and took less than 100lb. There are many autopilots (granted DESIGNED to do this) that work on the quadrant of a wheeled helm.

I'd say go for it! (Just make sure you have big power cables going to the autopilot so you don't lose voltage when it's working hard) Oh, and I'd put some kind of cover over it so you don't step on it accidentally - keeping cooling in mind of course!

druid