Tiller hard to steer

Nov 29, 2011
90
Catalina 27 0ceanside
On my 1979 Catalina 27 outboard model is it normal that my tiller gets harder to turn the faster I go? I have no play in the rudder shaft bearing and my bottom cleaning diver said everything looks good underwater at the rudder. Low speed is fine but when I get over 5 knots the rudder gets very hard to turn. Any Ideas? Is this a characteristic of the boat, can I make it easier with sail trim if nothing else is wrong.
 
Oct 19, 2017
7,732
O'Day 19 Littleton, NH
It is normal for increasing headway to make steering a little harder, but not to the point that it becomes hard to steer. And yes, balancing the sail trim can make it easier or harder to steer.

Can you give more details about how your boat behaves? Do you get a lot of weather helm or lee helm? Is it hard to hold a course, easier or harder to turn into or away from the wind?

Assuming your diver would have seen anything fouling the rudder, do you track well with the tiller at midships? Can you eliminate the possibility that you are trying to drive the boat with the helm near to hard over, therefore dragging the rudder at a stalling/breaking angle through the water? Does the angle of heel make a difference? Do you steer with the outboard or the rudder when using the auxiliary?
Good luck. I hope you get this problem worked out soon.

-Will (dragonfl)
 

Joe

.
Jun 1, 2004
7,999
Catalina 27 Mission Bay, San Diego
The motor's prop and the boat's rudder are at odds. So.. Take note of the direction the boat wants to veer when you release your hold on the tiller. Now..... adjust the motor's direction to compensate for the prop's pull..... don't steer with the motor.

When motor sailing for longer distances, it is advisable to lower the jib and put a reef in the mainsail and set the traveler amidships with the sheet tightened down. The flattened, smaller sail will keep the boat from rocking in the swells, but still allow good maneuverability.
 
Feb 1, 2014
82
Watkins 27 North East, MD
It's not just/only physics. The boat is telling you to go easy on the tiller. Listen to it!
Your boat really doesn't like/want to go hard over at 5+kt. You shouldn't either. ;)
 
Jun 25, 2004
1,108
Corsair F24 Mk1 003 San Francisco Bay, CA
I owned a 1977 Catalina 27 for a long time, and I never had that problem. The rig can be tuned and sails trimmed to get the helm very well balanced.

Is the problem during motoring or sailing or both? Is it the same from port vs starboard? Is it hard to hold on a straight course? It is it hard to make minor course changes? Major course changes but on the same point of sail? A change course from, for example, upwind to downwind?

One interesting peculiarity of C27 rudders of that era (1977) is that some of them were asymmetric from one side to the other. Under power from an inboard prop, some had a pronounced tug to one side or the other. It didn’t affect steering under sail though, at least not on mine.

Judy B
 
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Nov 29, 2011
90
Catalina 27 0ceanside
Some more info... This is a tall rig with a one foot bow sprint. The headsail is new and is a 135 the mast is racked back about 5 degrees and I do have a adjustable back stay. I do have slight amount of weather helm. The boat does heal about 20 degrees + when the tiller starts to become tight. My outboard is fully in a up position when sailing. I'm now wondering if this is just the characteristic of the boat when water runs quickly over the large spade rudder and even harder when healing increases. Also do you think increasing the weight forward would help, the people plus my outboard are in the rear of the boat that could be has high as 1000 lb aft. My water tank and waste tanks are forward and are empty. Could filling them with water help balance the boat so it my ride more level and help steering? How would you trim the sails other then reefing?
thanks
 
Nov 29, 2011
90
Catalina 27 0ceanside
It is not hard to hold a straight coarse and seems only during sailing. When pulling the tiller towards you is where the increase resistance is when heeled at faster speeds.
 
Jun 25, 2004
1,108
Corsair F24 Mk1 003 San Francisco Bay, CA
I had a tall rig too.

Based on your description, I would suggest a few things.

First of all, double check the mast rake. 5 degrees is a lot of rake, way too much. The mast should have 0 to 0.5 degrees of rake. If you hang a weight from the main halyard, in no wind, it should cross the boom about 1-3 inches away from the mast.

The rake (and sail trim) is about right on that rig when you can sail close hauled (at about 28 degrees apparent wind angle on the windex), with about 15 degrees of heel, and the tiller at about 3degrees off center line.

To make the math easy, that’s about 0.6 inches off center x the length of the tiller. So, if the tiller is 60 inches long, the end of the tiller would be 3.0 inches off the centerline. (See correction below)

The boat sails fastest and best at 15 degrees of heel, but has very good manners when gusts hit and heel it further. If you get hit by a huge gust while going up wind, you can momentarily ease the traveler to hold your course,
. Alternatively, you can let the boat round up gently, by easing the tiller a few degrees, and feathering her into the wind, slightly stalling to reduce power.

It doesn’t take a gorilla to control a Catalina 27 TR. they’ve got great manners!

On edit . The sin (3 degrees) = 0.05, not 0.6. So a 60 inch tiller would be 3 inches off centerline with a rudder angle of 3 degrees.
 
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Jun 25, 2004
1,108
Corsair F24 Mk1 003 San Francisco Bay, CA
It is not hard to hold a straight coarse and seems only during sailing. When pulling the tiller towards you is where the increase resistance is when heeled at faster speeds.
I assume you are taliking about a situation in which you are sailing a point of sail above a beam reach and you want to fall off, right?
You need to ease the mainsail to get the boat fall off to a lower course. You can’t do that with the rudder. The sail trim will be trying to hold the boat on it prior course, while you’re trying to turn it with the rudder. The rudder is fighting the sails.

Judy
 
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Jun 25, 2004
1,108
Corsair F24 Mk1 003 San Francisco Bay, CA
To answer an earlier question about hull trim fore and aft:

Too much weight in the stern can be a real problem when the bow is sticking up a couple of inches higher than it should be. That makes it hard to go up wind because the bow gets blown downwind.

With regard to the stern loaded down too much, and how it affects the load on the helm:: having the stern a little too low decreases pressure On the tiller when heeled, because it moves the center of lateral resistance aft. Therefore, having the stern too low vs the bow decreases the pressure on the helm when heeled.

My C27 TR had an inboard, and sat a little too low in the stern by about an inch or maybe a little more. It didn’t Hurt how she sailed. I could sail her with two fingers on the tiller both on course and when letting her feather up in a gust.

So I wouldn’t expect your boat to be negatively impacted, but I’d recommend that take a look at how it sits in the water and move gear if you need to. When you have a lot of crew, ask them to sit in the front of the cockpit, not on the aft lazerette.

Judy B
 
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Nov 29, 2011
90
Catalina 27 0ceanside
I will check the rake and try to balance the boat better this weekend and see if steering becomes easier. Thank you for your suggestions.
 

Joe

.
Jun 1, 2004
7,999
Catalina 27 Mission Bay, San Diego
I apologize, I thought your problems were while powering.

Before you start making major rig adjustments, like re setting the mast rake, simply try trimming out the main when she starts heeling too much. Use your tell tales to set correct twist, watch your apparent wind direction, don't heel over 10-15 deg... The easiest method is to set your twist with the mainsheet and use the traveler to control the heel. Balancing the sail trim is the most important thing you can learn.... you shouldn't have more that 5 deg of rudder angle... 3 deg is ideal. C27's have telephone poles for masts.... really not designed to rake or bend. Try easing your backstay tension to create a fuller headsail shape... that'll push the effort forward a bit, taking it off the rudder.

So.... depower the main, power up the headsail, set the twist and leave it, use the traveler to adjust angle of attack as the AW direction moves. Hold course and trim rather than bear off with sails trimmed in hard.

Your challenge is to balance the rig so that you can take your hand off the tiller and the boat won't round up... it will slowly, slowly head up....
 
Oct 19, 2017
7,732
O'Day 19 Littleton, NH
Joe and DrJudyB have given great advice.
My guess is that you typed degrees when you meant inches of rake. If you have an adjustable backstay. Definately follow Joe's advice and start there. Shifting your weight forward a little is also a good idea.
You mentioned having a new headsail but not your main. How new is the boat to you? Have you sailed her before you got a new headsail?

Older sails get stretched out and tend to have more belly (camber) and that often moves aft, as well. A new headsail will trim flatter and more forward. The change to helm balance will be very noticeable. Overall, the new headsail will point higher than before while the older main will be fuller and contribute to heeling and weather helm. More rake moves your center of effort (CE) aft relative to your center of lateral resistance (CLR). This contributes to the pivoting of your boat around its CLR in a windward direction. As you heel more, that CE moves outboard and becomes a lever that also pulls to windward.
You might look at your main and determine if you need to tighten up on the downhaul, cunningham, the halyard, the outhaul and/or your vang, to get a flatter shape while relaxing the backstay for a fuller shape on the headsail. Great reasons to go sailing. Also, just let the main sheet out a little to fall off. Unless, of course, you're falling off because you're luffing. Then you might try letting the jib out.

We aren't there sailing with you, so this is all just friendly speculation. Have fun fine tuning your boat and your skills. Wish we could be there with you.

-Will (Dragonfly)
 
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Aug 1, 2011
3,972
Catalina 270 255 Wabamun. Welcome to the marina
Any Ideas? Is this a characteristic of the boat, can I make it easier with sail trim if nothing else is wrong
You will likely find the the boat sails better overall, the more upright it is. The further over it gets, and you mentioned 20 degrees, the more activity the rudder will undertake.
 
Nov 29, 2011
90
Catalina 27 0ceanside
Wow. Thank you everyone for sharing your knowledge and great advice. My mainsail is full batten and about 2 years old, no tell tails. I've only owned the boat for 1 year and am now trying to fine tune the boat so I can have the best sailing experience (go fast :)).
As far as joining me to help tune it up, you're all welcome aboard. I sail out of Oceanside in San Diego County. Just let me know when you're coming out. After sailing this weekend I'll post back and let you know how things went.
 
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Sep 20, 2014
1,320
Rob Legg RL24 Chain O'Lakes
Something to pay attention to is if the tiller is straight under sail. A perfectly balanced boat should not need any rudder correction to make the boat go straight. Any correction in the rudder induces drag. So its not just feeling the load, but if the rudder is straight.
Also if the rudder is bent backwards, it will make it hard to steer. I have a flip up rudder. If I don't get it all the way down, it makes it really hard to steer. So a bent rudder would do the same thing.

BTY: Don't start singing "I need a rudder that won't drive me crazy".
 
Aug 1, 2011
3,972
Catalina 270 255 Wabamun. Welcome to the marina
"go fast" does not correlate to "rail in the water", in fact, quite the opposite for these hulls. Try to get the boom nailed to the centreline, and the boat vertical and see what happens. I'll wager that after you figure out how to do that, it'll be faster, and it'll certainly be more comfortable.