I've got a question about sails and the luff, leech, and foot reinforcements. Most sails have a tape or bolt rope to reinforce these areas and prevent the material from stretching. I've heard of issues where the bolt rope needs to be extended to get proper sail shape as a sail ages, but what about a leech tape? When I sheet my mainsail in tight, the leech tape tightens up and "cups" before the sail material gets flat. I know, its probably the sail getting old. But is there a rememedy to improve the situation for a season or two before I go for a new mainsail?
Tight Sails
- Thread starter Brian M H23
- Start date
- Status
leach line
look for a leach line, a small string in the leach tape that comes out near the clew of the sail. if you have one it could be too tight causing the curl. If you dont you may want to take it to a sail maker and have him evaluate the problem sometimes the sail can stretch or the tape shrink. but it needs to be corrected.
look for a leach line, a small string in the leach tape that comes out near the clew of the sail. if you have one it could be too tight causing the curl. If you dont you may want to take it to a sail maker and have him evaluate the problem sometimes the sail can stretch or the tape shrink. but it needs to be corrected.
Sail slides?
Do you have sail slides installed and does the leech have a bolt rope inside? On some sails the bolt rope may be made from a material that shrinks more than the leading edge of the sail causing the leading edge to "pucker up" even when a fair amount of force is applied to the halyard. On these sails the bolt rope is attached only to the top and bottom of the sail. Check yours out and you may see at the tack the bolt rope is held only by a few inches of stitching. If this is the case you can cut the stitching to let the bolt rope float in the sleeve at the leech. I have had two sails for a MacGregor that did this. When the stitching was cut the leech stretched out almost 4 inches!! Now when you tighten the halyard you are tightening the leech and not the bolt rope inside. If cutting stitches on your sail makes you nervous, take it to your sailmaker for a consult.
Do you have sail slides installed and does the leech have a bolt rope inside? On some sails the bolt rope may be made from a material that shrinks more than the leading edge of the sail causing the leading edge to "pucker up" even when a fair amount of force is applied to the halyard. On these sails the bolt rope is attached only to the top and bottom of the sail. Check yours out and you may see at the tack the bolt rope is held only by a few inches of stitching. If this is the case you can cut the stitching to let the bolt rope float in the sleeve at the leech. I have had two sails for a MacGregor that did this. When the stitching was cut the leech stretched out almost 4 inches!! Now when you tighten the halyard you are tightening the leech and not the bolt rope inside. If cutting stitches on your sail makes you nervous, take it to your sailmaker for a consult.
No bolt rope
Just a triple layer of dacron "tape" sewn in place. I might try cutting it, flattening the sail out, and then sewing webbing to take up the gap. That would involve having the mast up, which may not be for a while. PS Tom, I think you are talking about the luff. The leech is the free edge of the sail, up with the backstay. My issue is that when I pull the boom down, I pull the leech as tight as it goes, but the sail is still floppy. Perhaps the triple-reinforced area did not stretch, but the single layer did. Who knows a sailmaker near rochester, NY?
Just a triple layer of dacron "tape" sewn in place. I might try cutting it, flattening the sail out, and then sewing webbing to take up the gap. That would involve having the mast up, which may not be for a while. PS Tom, I think you are talking about the luff. The leech is the free edge of the sail, up with the backstay. My issue is that when I pull the boom down, I pull the leech as tight as it goes, but the sail is still floppy. Perhaps the triple-reinforced area did not stretch, but the single layer did. Who knows a sailmaker near rochester, NY?
Since the leech
is the longest side of a sail, it is hard to imagine the overtightening the luff or foot would cause the the leech to cup. If this problem is not the result of a too tight leech line, as suggested below, it may be that your topping lift is too tight and not allowing the leech to stretch to its fullest when the sail is hoisted. If neither of these are the cause, it may be that your sail is blown out of shape or that it was not cut correctly to begin with.
is the longest side of a sail, it is hard to imagine the overtightening the luff or foot would cause the the leech to cup. If this problem is not the result of a too tight leech line, as suggested below, it may be that your topping lift is too tight and not allowing the leech to stretch to its fullest when the sail is hoisted. If neither of these are the cause, it may be that your sail is blown out of shape or that it was not cut correctly to begin with.
It's hard to visualize your problem ...
At first you seemed to indicate that the leech is cupped when you draw down on the mainsheet. That would indicate that you have a leech line that is over-tight as ed suggests. You don't indicate that you have adjusted the leech line so maybe we should assume that you don't have one (many mainsails don't). Now you seem to indicate that the sail is "floppy" when you draw down on the mainsheet. What do you do with the outhaul? Hopefully, you don't leave the topping lift cleated when you raise the main as Warren questions ... that wouldn't have occured to me. What sail shape are you able to achieve by increasing the tension of the halyard, the downhaul or cunningham, and the outhaul? Is it "floppy" when you attempt to flatten the sail (regardless of the tension on the mainsheet) using those 3 controls? Are you able to position the depth and location of the draft without relying soley on the mainsheet tension? The shape of the sail is dependant upon a combination of the appropriate sail controls, not just one or the other. If you can't affect much of anything to the shape and still have a cupped leech with a floppy draft, you may just have a blown-out main (or a main that was never cut right to begin with). ( I see that I just echoed Warren
)
At first you seemed to indicate that the leech is cupped when you draw down on the mainsheet. That would indicate that you have a leech line that is over-tight as ed suggests. You don't indicate that you have adjusted the leech line so maybe we should assume that you don't have one (many mainsails don't). Now you seem to indicate that the sail is "floppy" when you draw down on the mainsheet. What do you do with the outhaul? Hopefully, you don't leave the topping lift cleated when you raise the main as Warren questions ... that wouldn't have occured to me. What sail shape are you able to achieve by increasing the tension of the halyard, the downhaul or cunningham, and the outhaul? Is it "floppy" when you attempt to flatten the sail (regardless of the tension on the mainsheet) using those 3 controls? Are you able to position the depth and location of the draft without relying soley on the mainsheet tension? The shape of the sail is dependant upon a combination of the appropriate sail controls, not just one or the other. If you can't affect much of anything to the shape and still have a cupped leech with a floppy draft, you may just have a blown-out main (or a main that was never cut right to begin with). ( I see that I just echoed Warren
)
cloth fatigue
A cupped leech is a sure sign of cloth fatigue. A sailmaker can recut the sail to open the leech. To determine whether the sail is worth the expense of a recut, take a #14 sailmaker's needle, push it through a worn part of the sail, and put lateral pressure on it. If the sail rips easily, it's time for a new main. If it doesn't you might want to invest in a recut in order to get two or three more seasons out of the sail.
A cupped leech is a sure sign of cloth fatigue. A sailmaker can recut the sail to open the leech. To determine whether the sail is worth the expense of a recut, take a #14 sailmaker's needle, push it through a worn part of the sail, and put lateral pressure on it. If the sail rips easily, it's time for a new main. If it doesn't you might want to invest in a recut in order to get two or three more seasons out of the sail.
A little more of the story
that probably tells you all that my sail is just used up. My outhaul can be maxed out by hand (shackle hits sheave). By "floppy" i mean the sail perimeter is a tight triangle, but the draft is not tight at all. Im pretty sure it's blown out, just wondering if anything simple can be done to make it good for a year or two, but I think i will just join the market for a new sail.
that probably tells you all that my sail is just used up. My outhaul can be maxed out by hand (shackle hits sheave). By "floppy" i mean the sail perimeter is a tight triangle, but the draft is not tight at all. Im pretty sure it's blown out, just wondering if anything simple can be done to make it good for a year or two, but I think i will just join the market for a new sail.
More money ...
FAR more satisfaction I replaced our sails the first off-season we owned our boat. I still use the old jib because it is 110 and we bought a 150. The main is rolled up in the basement as a spare (never to be used again, most likely). Winter is the perfect time to have your new suit tailored. When you raise your new sails next spring, you won't remember the price (unless you feel the need to write it down somewhere). I thought about picking out a premium sail cloth and decided for our Starwind 27 that the dacron sails made by North for cruising sailboats would be perfectly fine. They are, and I couldn't be happier with them. Don't agonize over a few bucks and be dissatisfied every time you raise your old, worn sails. Make yourself happy, cut back on the nights out drinking for awhile, and put in a few hours of overtime!
FAR more satisfaction
I replaced our sails the first off-season we owned our boat. I still use the old jib because it is 110 and we bought a 150. The main is rolled up in the basement as a spare (never to be used again, most likely). Winter is the perfect time to have your new suit tailored. When you raise your new sails next spring, you won't remember the price (unless you feel the need to write it down somewhere). I thought about picking out a premium sail cloth and decided for our Starwind 27 that the dacron sails made by North for cruising sailboats would be perfectly fine. They are, and I couldn't be happier with them. Don't agonize over a few bucks and be dissatisfied every time you raise your old, worn sails. Make yourself happy, cut back on the nights out drinking for awhile, and put in a few hours of overtime! 
Woven Dacron and other 'stretchy' sails
On 'crosscut' sails made of woven dacron: If you over tighten the leech via the mainsheet you will stretch the leech and it will 'cup' or 'hook' to the windward side as a result. To reduce the 'cupping' you need to increase tension on the luff and foot to bring the sail 'edge' dimensions back into proper 'ratio' to return to the 'designed' shape. For a CROSSCUT sail (all the panels sewn in parallel 'rows') made of woven dacron (NOT laminate).... The resultant shape of such a sail is dependent on the strain/stress is applied to ONE EDGE (luff, leech and/or foot). For example if you take a handkerchief that is triangular in shape and pull along one side you will note that the 'other' two sides will become 'shorter' (by ratio) and the overall shape of the triangle will CHANGE . To bring the triangular handkerchief back to it 'designed' shape, you also have to stretch the 'other' two sides. Stretching one side of the triangle will 'release' (trip) the other two sides....when 'shaping a sail' you simply cant make ONE adjustment in a sail ... you ALWAYS need to make TWO adjustments in 'edge' tension. If you strain the leech (by aggressive mainsheet tension), you will need to readjust/tension the OTHER TWO sides of the sail to the approximately the same strain .... or the SHAPE of the sail will somewhat change. (There is a difference between the fiber and 'crimp' orientation (warp and weft) in the fabric fibers so that the amount of strain you pull on a different side will need to be adjusted independently) So if you are shaping a crosscut sail by extreme mainsheet tension, you also need to increase the luff and foot tension ... or the overall shape of the sail will change. Tensioning the luff by halyard tension (also cunningham tension) will 'trip' the leech .... and the cupping or 'hooking to windward' will reduce. So what Im getting at here is that if you 'strain' one side of a woven dacron sail, you need to additionally stretch the other 'opposite' side(s) ... or the shape of the sail will radically change. The three 'sides': 1. Halyard/cunningham tension .... brings the draft forward AND also 'opens' the leech. 2. Mainsheet (& vang) tension.... brings the draft slightly aft AND tightens (hooks/cups) the leech 3. Outhaul .... flattens the (bottom sections) draft, AND brings the (position of max. draft slightly lower into bottom section of the panels, etc.) For beating and for maximum speed when beating, etc. you should only be tensioning the mainsheet (&vang) so that the *second batten from the top* is parallel to the centerline of the boat. If you add MORE tension to the mainsheet, the leech will hook-up (cup) to windward, the boat will slow down, the boat will heel over on its ear (begin to 'skid' off to leeward if you dont have a 'deep' keel) and the boat will be slowly 'pinching'. If the boat has been sailed a LOT with the leech overtensioned, there will be a 'blown' (permanently stretched) leech and you will have to 'overcompensate' with the leech cord (pucker line) ... and that overcompensation will usually show with the leech seam (usually in the panels between the first and second battens) always hooked up to windward in order to keep the leech from fluttering. Its all too easy to overtension and overstretch a sail ... and ultimately a lot of permanent deformation (blown-out) will be the result over time. Sails made from laminates are not as 'stretchy' and the effects of halyard and mainsheet tension wont be as 'noticeable' ... as the shape of laminate sails is "the shape thats cut into the sail is the shape that you get' ... not so with crosscut woven dacron sails. For dacron mainsails, I prefer to make them with 'three strand boltropes' instead of 'tape' luffs, as a boltrope length can always be adjusted in the future to correct for eventual/inevitable 'shape changes' due to stretched out fabric. Taped luffs cant be 'adjusted' without a LOT of work (expense). Boltropes do have the problem that they eventually 'shrink' over time ... and usually need to be re-adjusted OFTEN if you sail hard. If you choose a new mainsail and elect to have a boltroped luff, just ask the sailmaker to ADD addtional boltrope length (just a few inches) to make future boltrope adjustment easier ... unless you ASK for this addition it wont be easy or cheap to 'ease' the boltrope in the future when needed. hope this helps
On 'crosscut' sails made of woven dacron: If you over tighten the leech via the mainsheet you will stretch the leech and it will 'cup' or 'hook' to the windward side as a result. To reduce the 'cupping' you need to increase tension on the luff and foot to bring the sail 'edge' dimensions back into proper 'ratio' to return to the 'designed' shape. For a CROSSCUT sail (all the panels sewn in parallel 'rows') made of woven dacron (NOT laminate).... The resultant shape of such a sail is dependent on the strain/stress is applied to ONE EDGE (luff, leech and/or foot). For example if you take a handkerchief that is triangular in shape and pull along one side you will note that the 'other' two sides will become 'shorter' (by ratio) and the overall shape of the triangle will CHANGE . To bring the triangular handkerchief back to it 'designed' shape, you also have to stretch the 'other' two sides. Stretching one side of the triangle will 'release' (trip) the other two sides....when 'shaping a sail' you simply cant make ONE adjustment in a sail ... you ALWAYS need to make TWO adjustments in 'edge' tension. If you strain the leech (by aggressive mainsheet tension), you will need to readjust/tension the OTHER TWO sides of the sail to the approximately the same strain .... or the SHAPE of the sail will somewhat change. (There is a difference between the fiber and 'crimp' orientation (warp and weft) in the fabric fibers so that the amount of strain you pull on a different side will need to be adjusted independently) So if you are shaping a crosscut sail by extreme mainsheet tension, you also need to increase the luff and foot tension ... or the overall shape of the sail will change. Tensioning the luff by halyard tension (also cunningham tension) will 'trip' the leech .... and the cupping or 'hooking to windward' will reduce. So what Im getting at here is that if you 'strain' one side of a woven dacron sail, you need to additionally stretch the other 'opposite' side(s) ... or the shape of the sail will radically change. The three 'sides': 1. Halyard/cunningham tension .... brings the draft forward AND also 'opens' the leech. 2. Mainsheet (& vang) tension.... brings the draft slightly aft AND tightens (hooks/cups) the leech 3. Outhaul .... flattens the (bottom sections) draft, AND brings the (position of max. draft slightly lower into bottom section of the panels, etc.) For beating and for maximum speed when beating, etc. you should only be tensioning the mainsheet (&vang) so that the *second batten from the top* is parallel to the centerline of the boat. If you add MORE tension to the mainsheet, the leech will hook-up (cup) to windward, the boat will slow down, the boat will heel over on its ear (begin to 'skid' off to leeward if you dont have a 'deep' keel) and the boat will be slowly 'pinching'. If the boat has been sailed a LOT with the leech overtensioned, there will be a 'blown' (permanently stretched) leech and you will have to 'overcompensate' with the leech cord (pucker line) ... and that overcompensation will usually show with the leech seam (usually in the panels between the first and second battens) always hooked up to windward in order to keep the leech from fluttering. Its all too easy to overtension and overstretch a sail ... and ultimately a lot of permanent deformation (blown-out) will be the result over time. Sails made from laminates are not as 'stretchy' and the effects of halyard and mainsheet tension wont be as 'noticeable' ... as the shape of laminate sails is "the shape thats cut into the sail is the shape that you get' ... not so with crosscut woven dacron sails. For dacron mainsails, I prefer to make them with 'three strand boltropes' instead of 'tape' luffs, as a boltrope length can always be adjusted in the future to correct for eventual/inevitable 'shape changes' due to stretched out fabric. Taped luffs cant be 'adjusted' without a LOT of work (expense). Boltropes do have the problem that they eventually 'shrink' over time ... and usually need to be re-adjusted OFTEN if you sail hard. If you choose a new mainsail and elect to have a boltroped luff, just ask the sailmaker to ADD addtional boltrope length (just a few inches) to make future boltrope adjustment easier ... unless you ASK for this addition it wont be easy or cheap to 'ease' the boltrope in the future when needed. hope this helps
I recommend sail warehouse
Hi Brian, If you want to get a new sail (kind of sounds like yours is blown out; three sides tight, no room left to adjust and center baggy) rather than recut/repair, try www.thesailwarehouse.com to check prices on ready made sails. There isn't any status like buying a big boy name but they're fine. I've been satisfied with mine and if I want a custom dimension I'll order from them again. Ed O25Fin
Hi Brian, If you want to get a new sail (kind of sounds like yours is blown out; three sides tight, no room left to adjust and center baggy) rather than recut/repair, try www.thesailwarehouse.com to check prices on ready made sails. There isn't any status like buying a big boy name but they're fine. I've been satisfied with mine and if I want a custom dimension I'll order from them again. Ed O25Fin
- Status