Thru-Hull Sealant / 4200 or 5200

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Apr 15, 2006
18
Jeanneau SO 44i Kingston, On
Can we learn something here ...

While we're on this subject, I'd really appreciate learning something here: why are some of you saying that even 4200 would be overkill? I don't get this one. Compared to what and for what reason?
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,701
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
Because..

Because a through hull with a proper backing plate is a mechanical fitting and really does not need the adhesive properties of even 4200. All it really requires is a below the water line rated flexible sealant that will stick well enough to the bronze and gelcoat to not loose the seal. 4200 is fine for this application and it comes apart much easier than 5200 but a through hull does not even require this level of adhesion. 3M 101, which is getting very hard to find, is the ideal blend of flexibility, fast cure, and just the right amount of adhesion. Before I switched to Sikaflex 3M 101 is all I used and never once had a through hull leak. Even when I had to switch out a plastic depth transducer it came out easily enough to clean up and sell it with the old Datamarine display. Can't do that with 5200 or even 4200 especially with a plastic transducer.
 
Feb 26, 2004
22,986
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
Thanks for the link, Peggie,

but the glue-guys will never be moved. Pity...
 
T

Tom S

The site that Peggie pointed us to is good

the problem is that it is still generic when it describes what should be used. For instance it says " Polyurethane is the best sealant for the hull-to-deck joint. It is also a good choice for through-hull fittings " The only problem is it doesn't specify what type of Polyurethane to use for a thruhull. It could be 5200, 4200, Sikaflex 292 Sikaflex 291, etc etc. We all know that they are a little different and some are better than others for each application.
 
Dec 2, 1997
8,915
- - LIttle Rock
What you're saying is,

You want to be spoon fed an answer, you don't want do any research yourself. Unfortunately, that's true of most people these days, though. However, people who only blindly following spoon fed advice don't learn anything, and often wrongly advise others to use the same product for a different application. The number of people who recommend using 5200 for every job on a boat is a prime example. Try Googling each product by name and even calling the mfr to ask which applications they recommend it be used for. You might also follow the advice in the last sentence of that article: "For more information about sealing and bedding, consult Sailboat Hull & Deck Repair by Don Casey." Then, when the next person wants to be spoon fed an answer, you may turn out to be on the only one here who can feed him the right answer!
 
Dec 2, 2003
4,245
- - Seabeck WA
Whoa Peggy. You know, we're getting conditioned

to being spoon-fed. After all, it is the information-age and this is the Internet. Why waste the time if we don't have to?
 

jimq26

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Jun 5, 2004
860
- - -
Fred - you wouldn't be referring to -

suggesting that people take a boo at the archives every so often to see what can be learned from past discussions now would you?
 
T

Tom S

Hmmm... :(

Well Peggie, I don't think I am one that asks to be spoon fed an answer. Especially if you ever read some of my posts & the detail and research I try to put into an answer when I post on here. Though you are right, many people come on here and ask a question and many times they are looking for a quick answer. Thats why they come on here I guess, but you are correct they should be responsible for understanding whatever info they are given and not just blindly accept anything they hear/read. I will have to argue though, that people can go to 3M or Sikiflex sites and read the Technical Data Sheets all day long until they are blue in the face but that won't give them any real insight into ~specificaly~ would be the best. Peggie thats why people come on "Sailboatowners.com". Its to get personal opinion on what people have from personal experiences. Sometimes thats better than what manufactures suggest, but sometimes (as we all know) the info you get from people on the web can be WAY off base, if not dangerous. I have also called manufactures and its hit or miss there too. Really depends on whom you actually get when you call. I have had bad info there too. So "Let the buyer beware" BTW if you go to 3M's website and go to the Marine adhesive selection area and you put in the parameters for underwater thruhull installation is suggests that 3M 5200 is an adequate product for the application. It also suggest that its "Removable" (I guess thats all relative - removable compared to what ;) ) http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/Marine/Home/Products/Adhesive_Sealant/ (Interesting that it says that fast Cure 5200 is permanent and then doesn't even suggest 4200, but it does say 4000UV is adequate *o) So much for research -- thats why people need to be more specific - and the specific personal recomendations on here are what really helps people Just as a FYI Here are just a few technical data sheet links for 5200 and 4200 3M 5200 http://multimedia.mmm.com/mws/mediawebserver.dyn?6666660Zjcf6lVs6EVs666gLRCOrrrrQ- Fast Cure 3M 4200 http://multimedia.mmm.com/mws/mediawebserver.dyn?6666660Zjcf6lVs6EVs666glkCOrrrrQ- etc etc
 
T

Tom S

ps Rob from Mattituck I would go with 4200

5200 is overkill. But when you ~really~ research the differences between 5200 and 4200 its not that big of a difference. The 4200 is still pretty tenacious stuff. Its adhesive properties are still about 1/2 to 1/3 that of 5200. For removal the more important attribute would be whether its breaks free in Cohesive mode or an Adhesive failure. For removal of a thruhull off the Gelcoat I'd want Adhesive Failure but I don't think that would be the case, and it would be best if you used lots of "Debond 2000" or similar product to loosen up the sealant (NOTE: *Cohesive – Adhesive/Sealant fails before adhesive/sealant releases from substrate. *Adhesive Failure – Adhesive/Sealant releases from substrate.) If you really want to be able to remove something down the road the 3m 101 is probably better as the adhesion properties are probably about 1/2 of even 4200 Fast Cure 4200 is what I used when I put in a thruhull 4 years ago and its in there fine. I'll worry about removing the thru hull whenever that day comes then. I really don't expect to have to do that anyday soon (if ever) since I have a Marelon Thruhull and not worried about electrolysis . If you really really think you are going to remove something some time in the future you might want to take a look at other prodcuts . I might consider the Sikaflex product Maine Sail has listed below and next project I'll probably start trying some of it .
 

RichH

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Feb 14, 2005
4,773
Tayana 37 cutter; I20/M20 SCOWS Worton Creek, MD
Almost the same thing .....

"I really don't expect to have to do that anyday soon (if ever) since I have a Marelon Thruhull and not worried about electrolysis" . But but but the principal component of Marelon is NYLON and nylon hydrolyzes in water ;... Marlelon just takes some more time to hydrolyze than unmodified nylon but it WILL evenually hydrolyze. Most industrial safety codes in industry PROHIBITS nylon in water systems.
 
Jun 3, 2004
730
Catalina 250 Wing Keel Eugene, OR
Two things

First, I would use 4200. Second, the comments about "glue-guys" and being "spoon fed" were unneccesary, provacative and contributed nothing to the question at hand.
 
Dec 2, 1997
8,915
- - LIttle Rock
Ummmm. Tom...

" will have to argue though, that people can go to 3M or Sikiflex sites and read the Technical Data Sheets all day long until they are blue in the face but that won't give them any real insight into ~specificaly~ would be the best." No...and if reading technical data sheets were the only sources of information on anything, all I'd have to do to answer questions is post links to 'em instead of researching answers. But instead, as we speak, I'm trying to find out what the heck is in a particular household toilet bowl cleaner that's recently come on the market and claims to be "septic tank safe" and "biodegradable"...the MSDS gives no information whatever, nor can I find it anywhere else on the 'net...I'm gonna have to call S.C. Johnson and hope they'll tell me--or at least tell me what isn't in it. I've already spent a couple of hours on it--for someone ELSE'S benefit (and to increase my own knowledge)...but it's apparently too much to expect of boat owners to invest that kind of effort into learning to care for their own boats. There are a zillion books on boat maintenance that do provide real insight--if sometimes contradictory--into every aspect of it....a search for "boat maintenance" on Amazon.com turned up a list of nearly 1500! The online store here has about 100: http://shop.sailboatowners.com/books/category-books.htm?fno=400&cat=1306 Among them have to be a few that discuss which sealants and adhesives are appropriate for various applications. There are also other discussion forums populated by people who've not only owned boats for decades, but sail 'em all over the world and maintain 'em themselves, and have learned which products are best for various applications. The Cruising Sailors Bulletin Board http://www.cs-bb.com/ which is a part of the sbo.com family of sites is one. Latitudes and Attitudes is another...and there are more. Becoming a knowledgeable boat owner takes time and EFFORT...that unfortunately, few people are willing to invest any more.
 

Ross

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Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
I am going to have to back Peggie on this one .

Most of the replies to her post are from those that do their research. I live by the adage "that if the shoe fits-----." We have all read posts that read "I keep finding water in the bilge any help would be welcome." Now I ask you, is this poster too lazy to try to track down the source or does the poster not know how to write a question and define a problem?
 
Feb 26, 2004
22,986
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
And I thought it was a funny little

jest. BOTH Tom and Peggie have discussed this very well. We are seeing a lot of questions, and for this board, newcomers are most welcome. Divergent views on use are par for the course. Some variations may work in some cases, like: do you like double or single line reefing, back to the cockpit or at the mast, mast winch or cabintop. Those are OPTIONS. This issue is about what WORKS and what doesn't work. It seems appropriate to note that adhesives are simply harder to remove than sealants. It's still: your boat, your choice. In this case, don't say we didn't warn you.
 
J

Jorge Campos

Ross, it seems like Rob did

You implied Rob did know how to write a question and define a problem? He asked the question "What is the best type of sealant to use on a bronze thru-hull....4200 or should I go with 5200?" Very simple question that all the pundits and provocateurs on this board spin the thread into outer space. I agree with Nautiduck. Analyzing the thread it shows that Peggie's post was of little value in answering Robs simple question. She didn't answer it. She just pushed it off to a link that didn't answer the question. He already knew he wanted to use a polyurethane sealant as Peggie's link suggests one use. He just wanted some opinions on which to use 4200 or 5200. Very simple Peggie suggesting one go to the multitude of other boating websites for the answer and not this one is interesting. Isn't that what this site is for? I have been to those sites and for many I do not suggest anyone ever going to them and ask a simple question. Especially the Cruising Sailors Bulletin Board. It is one of the least helpful trash talk boating bulletin boards out there. All that are there are swinging ***ks with ego's bigger than any knowledge that they have. They also are tough to get a anything answered. God help a newbie go on there and ask a simple question
 

Ross

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Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
Jorge, The 3m web site recommends either

4200 or 5200 and indicates that 4200 has about one half of the bond strength of 5200. Since both are considered adequate and since it might be nice to be able to remove a thru hull later then it follows that the 4200 would be the best choice. Being in need of having someone make decisions suggests to me a reluctance to accept the responsibility for a future failure. Get the best advise you can and then confirm the advise by doing your own research. The drains in bath tubs and sinks are always bedded in putty and hold for many years without leaking.
 
Dec 2, 1997
8,915
- - LIttle Rock
Prob'ly both...

I've seen posts from three different people asking how to solve the exact same problem less than 24 hours apart...AFTER I'd posted the answer to the first one! If they won't even read the posts for the last 24 hours, they're certainly not gonna search any archives....they won't even explore their own boats! How many times do we see, "Does anyone know where the (just about everything on a boat including the deck pumpout fitting) is located on a (make/model/year)? It's not just here, it's everywhere...and it's getting worse every year. But as Ross said, it's not everyone...there are still some people who actually want to learn and are willing to to invest time and effort into doing it, but our numbers ARE shrinking rapidly.
 

Ross

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Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
Peggie , The sad part is they probably don't read

any farther than the answer they wanted even if there were several caveats involved.
 
Feb 26, 2004
22,986
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
Had the same issue elsewhere

and was identified by many as a PIA because I began suggesting, many years ago, that people do their homework and research first. Didn't go too far, so I switched my approach. I fully agree with Peggie in her last post's assessment of what appears to be folks who could, but appear perhaps not to have, done a wee bit o' reading beforehand. And, perhaps, they're not the best in English or grammar. So...we learn to live with it. I began to find and post links to topics that have been covered and help direct folks where to search, and others have actually embraced this approach by noting, "Oh, we discussed this at: "<link>." This board is somewhat different, because it's much bigger and only shows a few days of activity, a VERY important consideration in site usage and response to repetitious-type questions. But heck, if it's been posted within the past 24 hours, a "default" factory setting (or could that be 8 hours?), it would help if the respondent just read what's in front of him. Not all of us are alike, but when I stumbled across this site, I was fascinated, but lurked around a LOT before I got to the first question, no-less a first reply... I understand the purpose of all this fun and games is to help share what we've learned. And we all seem to recognize that the folks asking the questions are relatively new to the sport and we either try to direct them to a certain place, mention the archives (which many folks may not know exist when they ask their first few questions) or leave it to the folks following in our footsteps, who used to be new-to-it, just as we once were, to fill in the gaps. Occasionally, a HOT button comes up, like this one. Almost as fun as varnish and Cetol :):):):)
 
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