Three boats at leeward mark - What to do?

[Davidasailor26]

Coming into a leeward mark this evening I think I unnecessarily gave up a big chunk of time. Looking for advice on how to handle it better next time.

Three of us were going downwind to a port rounding, with the next leg a port tack close reach. Wind was just slightly from port of DDW. The leading boat and I were on port gybe, and outside us was a boat on starboard gybe -

I was BP, clear astern of AP when he reached the zone. Based on coming into the zone that way, as far as I know, AP gets mark room from both S and myself. I was fine settling for that, figuring I'd follow AP and get mark room from S once we got into the zone. Before being in the zone I didn't want to go too far right for fear of fouling S. Unfortunately that fear led to this -

AP lost speed coming into the mark, likely because of all the bad air from S and myself. As he lost speed, and I didn't want to foul S, I ended up inside of AP, knowing I had no rights to room there. I tried turning the rudder furiously to scrub speed and get back behind AP, but by the time I realized my predicament I had too much momentum. I ended up bailing out and doing a 360 to follow them all, but it was about a 2 minute loop in dying wind. We ended up losing to S by 14 seconds, and AP by 90.

Did I have any alternatives to avoid fouling the other two and not need to bail out?

 

[danstanford]

Everyone I know would have driven right up the inside of AP claiming overlap was present and demanding mark room! Seriously though, I am unable to imagine a better option than you took once you were there even with all the time I have to think about it. It must have been quite the shock to have been in that spot all of a sudden.

 

[sgiarc]

You can't gain an overlap coming from the leeward side. Next time jibe and maintain your position with S. At that point you can take him up to create some separation. Take the mark wide and come in tight and you may even be to windward of Ap. Remember it's supposed to be fun , no trading paint. Also realize the rule book only works when all parties understand it.

 

[Sandy Stone]

You can't gain an overlap coming from the leeward side.

I don't understand that comment. Can you quote the rule you're thinking of?
I do like the idea of jibing and taking S up.

 

[Jackdaw]

First some thoughts:

Smart sailboat racing happens in the future.
Boats typically mover at the pace of a jog, so you have time to think.

Maybe smarter things could have happened before, but once you got into that position 1, your big chance was before position 2 happened, when you needed to gain the 3-boat boat zone before ‘S’ but clear astern or outside ‘AP’. Do everything in your power to make this happen. Furl your headsail. Drop your main.

The moment you do this, you turn to ‘S’ and say ‘I’m in the zone and am going to need room’. Because this is a leeward mark you are OK being on port. You are entitled room to make a seaman-like rounding, and if that means going around AP you do, and S must make room to allow this.

Once you turned inside you were doomed.

 

[shemandr]

You can't gain an overlap coming from the leeward side.

???
I agree AP has rights until he clears the marks based on being first to enter the zone. Your drawing depicts you (BP) as entering the zone ahead of S. Therefore I would say you have rights over S at that point and you could have crossed the transom of AP, and forced S to head away from the mark. That move would likely trigger a protest from S and the dispute would be whether you were in the zone first or not. So, if this was a Wed PM race or club level you probably did the corinthian thing. You could have made your 360 after passing the mark on the reach which would be better than the DDW turns. That would test the "...as soon as possible..." clause but you could plead you needed to be clear of other competitors before turning. You have no rights while doing penalty turns.
Fun question!

 

[Jackdaw]

You can't gain an overlap coming from the leeward side. Next time jibe and maintain your position with S. At that point you can take him up to create some separation. Take the mark wide and come in tight and you may even be to windward of Ap. Remember it's supposed to be fun , no trading paint. Also realize the rule book only works when all parties understand it.

The wind was slightly to port. 'S' was the leeward boat. So even on same tack she has ROW.

 

[Jackdaw]

That move would likely trigger a protest from S and the dispute would be whether you were in the zone first or not. S

That's why the MOMENT you enter the zone, you tell them what I noted in #5. They will either a) nod and give you room, or b) say 'sorry no way' and then you have a decision to make. But if it's clear and you say it, most will agree.

 

[JRacer]

Based on the diagram, it appears that your choice to go outside of the leader was limited by the proximity of S. As such, I think you did the only thing you could presuming that you overtook AP before the circle. Only option in that case was to get slow and stay on AP's tail throughout the maneuver. Agree with Clay that if you can clearly establish that you got to the circle ahead of S then you have all the rights to whatever room is necessary (not tactically necessary) to make the rounding. Also agree with Clay that once you went inside AP your fate was sealed. And, his pointy about you being Starboard Windward (keep clear) if you jibed is correct. The time to set that rounding up and realize the potential for the overtake was well before a boat length or two from the circle - you needed to get slower earlier while keeping the overlap with S. Isn't hindsight wonderful. Glad you are asking all these questions. Good for you to learn. Always better to learn without having to engage the fiberglass guy! .

 

[Jackdaw]

Your drawing depicts you (BP) as entering the zone ahead of S. Therefore I would say you have rights over S at that point and you could have crossed the transom of AP, and forced S to head away from the mark.

This is not the correct way to look at the rules in play here. 'Mark room' does NOT change ROW or a grant of rights, it is simply a grant of room to turn at a mark based on order of entering the zone. All ROW rules are in force. If 'S' is on starboard (and leeward!), she is ROW and you use your grant to make a 'seamanlike' turn. If that was not the case and you had ROW, you were entitled to a tactical 'proper course' turn.

 

[Davidasailor26]

Thanks all for the input. It's given me some good things to think about if it happens again. In response to some particularly thought provoking points -

Everyone I know would have driven right up the inside of AP claiming overlap was present and demanding mark room! Seriously though, I am unable to imagine a better option than you took once you were there even with all the time I have to think about it. It must have been quite the shock to have been in that spot all of a sudden.

Yeah, the time it took for AP to lose momentum and go from about a full length ahead to overlapped was really what caught me off guard. AP is also pretty savvy, and very unyielding, so barging in didn't seem like the smart play .

The wind was slightly to port. 'S' was the leeward boat. So even on same tack she has ROW.

Great point which I had forgotten. A couple hundred yards earlier we thought about gybing. I decided against it , because at the time AP was well in front, pretty much out of the picture. We thought we could gybe and push S out, but I figured why bother, since I'd get mark room anyway. I was kicking myself for that this morning, but you're right, I might not have been able to bring him up anyway.

Boats typically mover at the pace of a jog, so you have time to think.

It was pretty calm, so more like walking pace. If I had anticipated better I probably could've avoided being there sooner. After that you're right I probably should've just done more to try to scrub speed and stay behind AP.

You could have made your 360 after passing the mark on the reach which would be better than the DDW turns.

Just to be clear my 360 wasn't a penalty turn, it was a loop just short of the mark because it was my only way to get out of jail. Our SI's specify a 720 turn for infractions, so between that and the fiberglass concerns I figured the 360 bail out was the better option.

 

[JRacer]

Happens fast, even when it doesn't!

 

[Jackdaw]

Thanks all for the input. It's given me some good things to think about if it happens again. In response to some particularly thought provoking points -

Well, full marks for the great diagrams!

Over time, getting better at this is like getting better at speed chess. You learn to think farther ahead, but also know how to react instantly to a challenge out of the blue. This requires a solid base of rules understanding , and seeing them unfold in real time so you know how to mix current conditions with the RRS. Like understanding S was always going to be leeward of you , no matter what you did.

One good mental game to play is to ALWAYS know with respect to ever boat you can see is: Windward or leeward of them? Port or starboard of them? Clear astern or overlapped with them. I quiz my crewmembers constantly on this. Makes them/us better.

 

[JRacer]

The Wisdom of Experience! The knowledge you gain from being trapped like that in every rule situation in the book over the course of many races/years.

 

[Sandy Stone]

You know, I went back and looked at the definition of "Leeward" in the RRS and found this: "when sailing by the lee [as it appears S is doing] or directly downwind, her leeward side is the side on which her mainsail lies." So technically, I think if BP had jibed, he would have had leeward rights over S. Whether that would have helped in the particular situation is another question.

 

[Davidasailor26]

You know, I went back and looked at the definition of "Leeward" in the RRS and found this: "when sailing by the lee [as it appears S is doing] or directly downwind, her leeward side is the side on which her mainsail lies." So technically, I think if BP had jibed, he would have had leeward rights over S. Whether that would have helped in the particular situation is another question.

Interesting point. That's my read of the definition too now that I look it up. If that's the case then yes I think it does help. I could have gybed onto starboard and pushed S slowly right, keeping enough space for myself to fit outside of AP. What say you @Jackdaw?

 

[Jackdaw]

Interesting point. That's my read of the definition too now that I look it up. If that's the case then yes I think it does help. I could have gybed onto starboard and pushed S slowly right, keeping enough space for myself to fit outside of AP. What say you @Jackdaw?

Of course that’s correct.. if the boom can be pushed to then ‘wrong’ side, then that defines leeward and windward, despite what side the wind is actually crossing the boat. We do that all the time. I must of needed more coffee. Good catch @Sandy Stone !