I'm almost ready to launch the yawl I bought last year, and all of the running rigging is fuzzy and bleached out, from sitting in the sun. I plan on just matching the diameter and length of the existing lines, but I'd like to use the best line available for the price. I've heard several people praising Sta Set X, Brion Toss (my newest hero: "Rigger's Apprentice") included, but at the same time, I've read others who say that it's too stiff, and not right for halyards, etc. Could current and former users of Sta Set X voice their opinions? My old girl gets her feet wet June 1st.
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Stretch
For thousands of years, sailors have sought out the best line, defined as one that didn't stretch too much, and was relatively easy to handle. Wire doesn't strecth too much, but is difficult to handle. Cotton is wonderful to handle, but stretches like crazy. Every line is going to be a compromise between these characteristics, with price tossed into the mix for fun. Sta-set X is a relatively low-stretch line that is stiffer than some other braids that stretch more, but it isn't overly expensive, as lines go. Other lines stretch less, and might be stiffer. How stiff is too stiff is a decision that depends upon the use to which the line is put, and your opinion. Any line will tend to 'loosen up' with use. You may just have to get some and try it out, and keep using your fuzzy ones for a while. You may find you like the fuzzy ones, (some lines are made that way, to be easier to handle.) Let us know what you find out!
For thousands of years, sailors have sought out the best line, defined as one that didn't stretch too much, and was relatively easy to handle. Wire doesn't strecth too much, but is difficult to handle. Cotton is wonderful to handle, but stretches like crazy. Every line is going to be a compromise between these characteristics, with price tossed into the mix for fun. Sta-set X is a relatively low-stretch line that is stiffer than some other braids that stretch more, but it isn't overly expensive, as lines go. Other lines stretch less, and might be stiffer. How stiff is too stiff is a decision that depends upon the use to which the line is put, and your opinion. Any line will tend to 'loosen up' with use. You may just have to get some and try it out, and keep using your fuzzy ones for a while. You may find you like the fuzzy ones, (some lines are made that way, to be easier to handle.) Let us know what you find out!
Have had "X" on the Gennie sheets for a
year, at first seemed stiff and it does get a light "fuzz" on it. Didn't really care for the "hand" or feel either. Stiffness seems manageable now, I've used Samson XLS braid for halyards and like it. I've used the regular Sta Set for traveler, mainsheet, boom vang and furling line and seems to work well. Has a "shine" and pretty good feel even if a little slick.
year, at first seemed stiff and it does get a light "fuzz" on it. Didn't really care for the "hand" or feel either. Stiffness seems manageable now, I've used Samson XLS braid for halyards and like it. I've used the regular Sta Set for traveler, mainsheet, boom vang and furling line and seems to work well. Has a "shine" and pretty good feel even if a little slick.
English Braids
I find English Braids braid-on-braid to be very good for both halyards and sheets. Eye spices easily if you buy a set of fids.
I find English Braids braid-on-braid to be very good for both halyards and sheets. Eye spices easily if you buy a set of fids.
Here's a suggestion...
I chuckled a bit at Ted's post because we've ended up with the opposite arrangement: SS X for the halyards but XLS for the sheets. To me this makes sense because we're always handling the sheets and they need to run easily. The stiff synthetic core of SS X (the cover is more about U/V protection than added strength, I'm told) seems better suited to static uses that require low stretch. Here's what I would recommend: visit the Samson website and print out the XLS performance chart, and then do the same for SS X. Make note of the prices quoted by a preferred vendor for each (we use Defender for XLS, several vendors for SS X, depending...). Then do some comparison shopping. I was amazed at how much better value XLS is on a cost/performance basis, and it has held up well. This does not address the 'feel' preferences you might have, which I also think are important. To address that, I purchased XLS for one application, noted how it spliced and how I felt using it, before ordering more. I should also note that I've never been a fan of SS X; still, it has performed very well, held up well (we've got perhaps 14,000 miles on some of it), and despite its stiffness and now embarassingly dirty covers, I can't find a reason to change. I plan to stick with SS X for halyards, and also use a small dimension SS X line for our deck jackline - another satisfying application. Jack
I chuckled a bit at Ted's post because we've ended up with the opposite arrangement: SS X for the halyards but XLS for the sheets. To me this makes sense because we're always handling the sheets and they need to run easily. The stiff synthetic core of SS X (the cover is more about U/V protection than added strength, I'm told) seems better suited to static uses that require low stretch. Here's what I would recommend: visit the Samson website and print out the XLS performance chart, and then do the same for SS X. Make note of the prices quoted by a preferred vendor for each (we use Defender for XLS, several vendors for SS X, depending...). Then do some comparison shopping. I was amazed at how much better value XLS is on a cost/performance basis, and it has held up well. This does not address the 'feel' preferences you might have, which I also think are important. To address that, I purchased XLS for one application, noted how it spliced and how I felt using it, before ordering more. I should also note that I've never been a fan of SS X; still, it has performed very well, held up well (we've got perhaps 14,000 miles on some of it), and despite its stiffness and now embarassingly dirty covers, I can't find a reason to change. I plan to stick with SS X for halyards, and also use a small dimension SS X line for our deck jackline - another satisfying application. Jack
I think I was trying the lines in reverse order,
Jack. Really wish I'd have ended up the other way too I think, but now that it's there and works Okay it will stay for a while. My wife hated the X from day 1 and wanted me to switch it (instead I just handle it while she helms).
Jack. Really wish I'd have ended up the other way too I think, but now that it's there and works Okay it will stay for a while. My wife hated the X from day 1 and wanted me to switch it (instead I just handle it while she helms).
Thoughts
SSX is a very good buy for a halyard. It can't compete with Spectra, but is way ahead of regular SS. I don't see stiffness in a halyard as a bad thing. As for "hand" friendly, I have to ask 'how often do you handle your halyards in any given day? 2 times? 3 times? Sheets are a different matter. They are (or should be) constantly being handled so "hand" friendly becomes more of an issue. For the best of all worlds, put a polyester cover on a small diameter spectra line, feels good, minimal stretch, very light, low friction.(basically no downside) Jack Tyler, SSX or any other line is a poor choice for jack lines. A flat webbing material would be far preferable to a line. Walking on deck at night in bad weather, line is easily stepped on and can roll an ankle, not so with webbing.
SSX is a very good buy for a halyard. It can't compete with Spectra, but is way ahead of regular SS. I don't see stiffness in a halyard as a bad thing. As for "hand" friendly, I have to ask 'how often do you handle your halyards in any given day? 2 times? 3 times? Sheets are a different matter. They are (or should be) constantly being handled so "hand" friendly becomes more of an issue. For the best of all worlds, put a polyester cover on a small diameter spectra line, feels good, minimal stretch, very light, low friction.(basically no downside) Jack Tyler, SSX or any other line is a poor choice for jack lines. A flat webbing material would be far preferable to a line. Walking on deck at night in bad weather, line is easily stepped on and can roll an ankle, not so with webbing.
Hidden Aspects of rope stiffness
We judge a rope's handle-ability by its stiffness in the hand, but what about its stiffness when under tension? Consideration of the construction e.g. braid on braid or braid on linear fibres could mean either style becomes very stiff under load - and this is when it matters most for raising the sail or tightening the luff. Anyone know of any test work on friction in ropes under tension please? One day I will build a rig and test various samples but have little time to experiment just now. Like most others my mainsail 376 is a B^**/" to raise.
We judge a rope's handle-ability by its stiffness in the hand, but what about its stiffness when under tension? Consideration of the construction e.g. braid on braid or braid on linear fibres could mean either style becomes very stiff under load - and this is when it matters most for raising the sail or tightening the luff. Anyone know of any test work on friction in ropes under tension please? One day I will build a rig and test various samples but have little time to experiment just now. Like most others my mainsail 376 is a B^**/" to raise.
SS X for jacklines - an alternate view...
Alan's comment about SS X being a poor choice for jacklines deserves a couple of follow-ups. First, his comment is the 'traditional' view and webbing is often touted as the only viable choice, altho' I've seen a lot of webbing jacklines I would not want to trust (U/V damaged, chafed, stretched, old and also offering slip potential on some deck types). Webbing is hardly a panacea; the choice of SS X reduces some of these issues. The reason SS X works well for me is that I set up the jacklines so they can't be stepped on in the first place. In fact, when ocean sailing well offshore, we typically now add 3 add'l jackline + lifeline systems: a centerline jackline so it is physically impossible for any part of me to get beyond the lifelines (used for reefing & mainsail adjustments, the main reason I go on deck at sea), deck jacklines tucked up inside the turn of the coachroof and so 'hidden' from foot traffic except at the very front of the boat, and a set of 'extra' lifelines, also made up of SS X, which runs above the regular life lines. (This last arrangement was recommended to me by John Neal and it's a wonderful if odd looking arrangement. I really appreciate it offshore). Some will find this ultra conservative and a big fuss. With a physically weak partner and no other crew, my view is that even hanging over the lifelines and dribbling along in the drink is a major safety threat. Instead of worrying about that, we just do all we can to eliminate the threat. Makes my wife sleep better, too. In the last 5 years & 15,000 NM I've yet to roll a foot on our SS X jackline, Alan. That tells me SS X works for us just fine. Jack
Alan's comment about SS X being a poor choice for jacklines deserves a couple of follow-ups. First, his comment is the 'traditional' view and webbing is often touted as the only viable choice, altho' I've seen a lot of webbing jacklines I would not want to trust (U/V damaged, chafed, stretched, old and also offering slip potential on some deck types). Webbing is hardly a panacea; the choice of SS X reduces some of these issues. The reason SS X works well for me is that I set up the jacklines so they can't be stepped on in the first place. In fact, when ocean sailing well offshore, we typically now add 3 add'l jackline + lifeline systems: a centerline jackline so it is physically impossible for any part of me to get beyond the lifelines (used for reefing & mainsail adjustments, the main reason I go on deck at sea), deck jacklines tucked up inside the turn of the coachroof and so 'hidden' from foot traffic except at the very front of the boat, and a set of 'extra' lifelines, also made up of SS X, which runs above the regular life lines. (This last arrangement was recommended to me by John Neal and it's a wonderful if odd looking arrangement. I really appreciate it offshore). Some will find this ultra conservative and a big fuss. With a physically weak partner and no other crew, my view is that even hanging over the lifelines and dribbling along in the drink is a major safety threat. Instead of worrying about that, we just do all we can to eliminate the threat. Makes my wife sleep better, too. In the last 5 years & 15,000 NM I've yet to roll a foot on our SS X jackline, Alan. That tells me SS X works for us just fine. Jack
Jack
If it works for you Jack, by all means use it! You sound like a very consciencous and conservative sailor. Also, I must say that I agree with you that U/V damaged, chafed, stretched, and old jacklines are something that no sailor with any brains in his head would want to use. I think that would apply to most ALL line on the boat and goes without saying. However, given my choice of stepping on webbing or line (assuming they are in equally good condition), I would prefer the former. After slipping and rolling an ankle the first time on line, I learned my lesson.
If it works for you Jack, by all means use it! You sound like a very consciencous and conservative sailor. Also, I must say that I agree with you that U/V damaged, chafed, stretched, and old jacklines are something that no sailor with any brains in his head would want to use. I think that would apply to most ALL line on the boat and goes without saying. However, given my choice of stepping on webbing or line (assuming they are in equally good condition), I would prefer the former. After slipping and rolling an ankle the first time on line, I learned my lesson.
Great input, one more question.
Okay, maybe two... Firstly, I like the idea of the stiffer SSX for halyards (good point about not needing to be hand friendly), and the XLS for sheets, but here's my dilemma: how do I know what's on the boat now, and if it's still good, or a hazard to navigation? I could bore you with photos, but I think just telling you that all of the lines are filthy and "crusty" feeling, may give you enough of an idea. I think that until I get enough experience that one type of line over another will make a difference, I'll go with "off the rack" lines, rather than requesting special types. I take it that "SS X" and "XLS" are types, and manufactured by more than one supplier. Any recommendations for a good, affordble brand name?
Okay, maybe two... Firstly, I like the idea of the stiffer SSX for halyards (good point about not needing to be hand friendly), and the XLS for sheets, but here's my dilemma: how do I know what's on the boat now, and if it's still good, or a hazard to navigation? I could bore you with photos, but I think just telling you that all of the lines are filthy and "crusty" feeling, may give you enough of an idea. I think that until I get enough experience that one type of line over another will make a difference, I'll go with "off the rack" lines, rather than requesting special types. I take it that "SS X" and "XLS" are types, and manufactured by more than one supplier. Any recommendations for a good, affordble brand name?
Jonathan, ssx and xls are
type of rope. StaSet X is made by new england ropes and i beleive xls is made by samson. check out riggingonly.com for some good prices on StaSet newenglandropes.com has an interactive line selector that you can play around with, too.
type of rope. StaSet X is made by new england ropes and i beleive xls is made by samson. check out riggingonly.com for some good prices on StaSet newenglandropes.com has an interactive line selector that you can play around with, too.
Take your time...
Jonathan, I'd counsel you to invest some time in cleaning and then, unless you see serious outer core chafe (which will weaken the line), using all your lines before jumping for new ones. A l-o-n-g soak (at least overnight) in a barrel or bucket with a soapy solution and periodic plunging (plumber's helper works), followed by mucho rinsing, and finally a good run in the home washing machine (socks tied around and shielding any shackles) might give you a pleasant surprise. Some folks use 'Bounce' with line in a dryer, others pour in fabric softener in the washer, both of these steps intended to improve the 'hand' or flexibility of the line. Some folks will add a wee bit of bleach in the bucket when doing the soak, altho' bleach can harm synthetics and so - just like your clothes - you want to be thoughtful about it. "I take it that "SS X" and "XLS" are types, and manufactured by more than one supplier." Nope. StaSet X and XLS are branded terms that refer, in each case, to a particular kind of dacron double braided line. If you want XLS, you buy Samson line...or if you want to consider Samson's 'upscale' low stretch but traditional double-braided line, that would be XLS. Of course, you can find many sources where you BUY the line; that would be the retail vendor. Jack
Jonathan, I'd counsel you to invest some time in cleaning and then, unless you see serious outer core chafe (which will weaken the line), using all your lines before jumping for new ones. A l-o-n-g soak (at least overnight) in a barrel or bucket with a soapy solution and periodic plunging (plumber's helper works), followed by mucho rinsing, and finally a good run in the home washing machine (socks tied around and shielding any shackles) might give you a pleasant surprise. Some folks use 'Bounce' with line in a dryer, others pour in fabric softener in the washer, both of these steps intended to improve the 'hand' or flexibility of the line. Some folks will add a wee bit of bleach in the bucket when doing the soak, altho' bleach can harm synthetics and so - just like your clothes - you want to be thoughtful about it. "I take it that "SS X" and "XLS" are types, and manufactured by more than one supplier." Nope. StaSet X and XLS are branded terms that refer, in each case, to a particular kind of dacron double braided line. If you want XLS, you buy Samson line...or if you want to consider Samson's 'upscale' low stretch but traditional double-braided line, that would be XLS. Of course, you can find many sources where you BUY the line; that would be the retail vendor. Jack
Washing your lines
You can wash your lines to get the salt and grime out of them. Get a mesh laundry bag (our CVS drug store has them). Put the lines in the bag but first remove any hardware. If the hardware is not removeable pad carefully (several old socks over the halyard shackles tied on with wire ties). Wash in a standard washing machine. A little fabric softener in the rinse cycle will help. Dry in a clothes dryer set on cool. If you coil the lines and tie them up with wire ties you will not have a rats nest to untangle when you're done (the voice of experience). This won't brighten them up and I wouldn't try a bleach for fear of weakening the fiber. They'll be much softer to the touch than when they were dirty and salty.
You can wash your lines to get the salt and grime out of them. Get a mesh laundry bag (our CVS drug store has them). Put the lines in the bag but first remove any hardware. If the hardware is not removeable pad carefully (several old socks over the halyard shackles tied on with wire ties). Wash in a standard washing machine. A little fabric softener in the rinse cycle will help. Dry in a clothes dryer set on cool. If you coil the lines and tie them up with wire ties you will not have a rats nest to untangle when you're done (the voice of experience). This won't brighten them up and I wouldn't try a bleach for fear of weakening the fiber. They'll be much softer to the touch than when they were dirty and salty.
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