Thought on a Larger Boat (7-foot-itis...)

[jaysweet]

This is an utterly unimportant thread, so feel free to ignore! I’ve been pondering the pluses and minuses of upgrading to a larger and more sturdy boat for many years now, so I thought I’d run through some of my thoughts and solicit yours.

I have a 2004 Hunter 306, purchased new, which I’ve sailed on the Chesapeake for 20-some-odd years now. In some sense, it still feels like a pretty new boat, in that it’s generally in good shape, and almost all of the original amenities are still working. I’ve also made some nice improvements. Only 2 things to “complain” about that I can see: first, it’s a bit small inside. As I get older and consider retirement (and more sailing), my wife and I would like more room to move around inside, and I’d also like a separate shower (with some more water tankage) and an A/C / heater of some sort. This last part (A/C and heat at the dock), I could definitely install myself in my current boat, since many 306’s came with that and there are detailed plans in the manual for it. But more internal room and a separate shower, not so much.

The second reason I can see for going up in size is that I often single-hand the boat for a couple of days (my wife drives to meet me) and even though the Chesapeake is a long way from being offshore sailing, there have been many occasions when the wind is up in the low 20’s and the 306 just gets tossed around and it’s very challenging to handle it solo. In other words, it’s a very lightly built boat, so it sails better in moderate winds, but man: there are many times when I’d prefer to have a more sturdy boat that could even heave-to!

With all that said, I could see something like an Island Packet 370: much more seaworthy, probably more than I really need, but when you’re out there and it’s getting ugly, I think it would be much more comfortable. Or maybe a Tartan 3700: more of a performance cruiser, not really designed for offshore, but still more capable than a light-weight 30-footer. I could also see a 40-foot center cockpit with a huge aft cabin, but it would be much more challenging to dock single-handed and of course: costs go up exponentially. I’ve chartered a 34-footer and two 44 footers, but other than that, all of my sailing has been on the 306 (and a previous Hunter 23).

As I said: feel free to comment if you’re bored on a Sunday!

Cheers,
Jay

 

[dLj]

My 2 cents worth (if even that valuable) - I feel that 306 is a very nice boat and gives quite a bit of interior space for a 30 foot boat. But you can't really get more without going to a larger boat.

The separate shower - well, I'd probably look at putting in a cockpit shower and to cover the water needs, potentially a water maker. Although they do require energy and added maintenance. The water tankage you have
Is pretty small. There are some pretty nice setups you can have with cockpit shower. Justa FYI - on my boat, I have two heads with showers and I've never used either as a shower - I use the cockpit shower.

Personally, I'd not go to an Island Packet. I don't like how they sail and find them to be way overpriced for what they are. That's just me... There are a lot of folk that love them...

Another thing that I feel is rather important, you know this boat very well. There is a lot to be said for that. I'm more of a fan of working with a known boat than getting an unknown boat and going through that learning process - unless I have a clear need to change the boat I have. Now you may have said need - but from what you've said at this point - I can't see what it is

One thing you haven't said is where do you plan to sail. You said you'd like to sail more, but not if you want to expand your sailing region. Having that info would really help with feedback.

dj

 

[dlochner]

A lot to unpack. We were in a similar position about 15 years ago, owning a Sabre 30 that was fine and well suited to our usual week long or so cruises on Lake Ontario. Wanderlust has struck with us eyeing the St Lawrence River and the Bahamas, the 30 would be too small. Being more than a bit partial to Sabres we found a rare bird, a 362 that was almost affordable. Since COVID, we've done 2 long trips, first down the ICW to the Keys and Abacos and in 2024 out the St Lawrence River and to Florida.

The mid 30' range is a sweet spot, much more comfortable to live on and sail than a 30 footer, not as challenging to sail solo or with aging bodies as a 40+ footer. And cheaper to maintain and for docking in marinas. (The extra 6 feet between a 36 and a 42 foot boat adds up at $3 a foot for dockage.) One of the biggest differences between the 30 and 36 is weight. The 30 came in under 10K pounds, the 362 in cruising mode comes in around 16K lbs. Bigger anchors, heavier dock lines and less muscling the boat around a marina. Getting used to the extra weight and momentum took a bit, but it was doable.

The larger boat also means the forces are larger, the sails harder to manage, and the anchor is heavier. These challenges can be overcome. We added equipment, from a Tides track to an eWincher to help manage the loads. The headsail was reduce from a 150 to 135 making it is easier to handle with little loss of performance.

With planning and practice a boat in the mid 30s can be single handed. Last year I soloed from Annapolis to Brunswick, Georgia, about 800 miles. Granted it was on the ICW and I motored much more than sailed, still I managed to anchor and dock with little drama and enjoyed the journey.

Last October I was part of a panel at the Annapolis Boat Show on Geezer Cruzing with a few other septuagenarians. It was well attended and there are a lot of retirees looking cruise. It can be done, it's just done differently from the young YouTubers. Check the Boat Show program this summer, we may do the panel again.

This is just a quick overview of the accommodations we have made to keep cruising and sailing as we age. At 74 I'm trying to seduce my wife into wanting to sail back to the Bahamas 2027.

 

[Caboteur]

Sunday musings,
Once up on a time I sailed on a Tanzer 26… a very light and spartan boat. I was tired of being tossed around when doing the lower St-Lawrence and the Great Lakes.
Nearing retirement I looked for a larger boat. A C&C Landfall 38 fit the bill. I used it to go to Bermuda, winter in the Bahamas and then go to the Azores, Lisbon, Cádiz, the Canaries, Barbados, St-Martin, Bermuda and back to Montreal via Nova Scotia and the St-Lawrence.
That done, the boat was in poor shape and I found it was too large a boat for me to single-hand. So I ordered a new Bénéteau 31. It had all the toys I wanted and none of the strainful stuff the 38 had. I’ve sailed or motored 20,000NM on this boat since new in 2008. I now have a co-owner (daughter) on the boat and find it more and more difficult to do the upkeep on it. My wife with failing health hasn’t been on board for the last three years.
This is to say that sailboats fit a need or a whim for a set period in time. As you presently find your boat too small, you will someday find the new one too big. If you accept the cost of change and don’t get too emotionnally attached go for it.

 

[dLj]

and back to Montreal via Nova Scotia and the St-Lawrence.

Not wishing to highjack this thread - but this line really caught my attention.

I'd really like to hear more about this part of your trip. It's one I've been considering but haven't found a lot of info on going "backwards" up the St. Lawrence. How long did you take going from Nova Scotia to Montreal? How was that leg of your trip? I could start a new thread or just PM you you directly if that would be better. Let me know.

dj

 

[Terry Cox]

Well, Jay. We sailed our first boat (H28) for three years.Very tender, but easy to handle. Hooked, we sold her and bought a P42 in 2002. We've sailed her thousands of miles all over PNW waters. Very comfortable, roomy, stiff and fast. Was not impressed by the IP layout, or value, for that matter. We sail year around and have found her to handle rough weather very well. She just digs in.

 

[jaysweet]

My 2 cents worth (if even that valuable) - I feel that 306 is a very nice boat and gives quite a bit of interior space for a 30 foot boat. But you can't really get more without going to a larger boat.

The separate shower - well, I'd probably look at putting in a cockpit shower and to cover the water needs, potentially a water maker. Although they do require energy and added maintenance. The water tankage you have
Is pretty small. There are some pretty nice setups you can have with cockpit shower. Justa FYI - on my boat, I have two heads with showers and I've never used either as a shower - I use the cockpit shower.

Personally, I'd not go to an Island Packet. I don't like how they sail and find them to be way overpriced for what they are. That's just me... There are a lot of folk that love them...

Another thing that I feel is rather important, you know this boat very well. There is a lot to be said for that. I'm more of a fan of working with a known boat than getting an unknown boat and going through that learning process - unless I have a clear need to change the boat I have. Now you may have said need - but from what you've said at this point - I can't see what it is

One thing you haven't said is where do you plan to sail. You said you'd like to sail more, but not if you want to expand your sailing region. Having that info would really help with feedback.

dj

dj,

I agree that the space (headroom even) on the 306 is great for a 30 foot boat, so that part isn't all that big a deal. I do have a hot/cold cockpit shower which I've used several times for other uses than a rinse off after swimming. But there are times (mainly anchored in a little creek with big, fancy houses on the water) where I might prefer to do a full-on ordinary shower in a bit more privacy. Seems a bit rude to do that in someone's backyard, I guess... We have a shower in the head in theory, but it's really impractical to get the whole room wet (including unsealed plywood), so I've never used it.

I agree that the boat you already have has a huge advantage over the new (used) one you don't know, and I'd say it's better than even money that I'll keep this one and just spend more for the nice upgrades.

My plans for longer trips probably aren't all that ambitious. Maybe Norfolk and/or a Delmarva circumnavigation would be the furthest I'd go. We're in the upper Bay, as you know, near Baltimore.

 

[capta]

In my opinion, the Island Packet 370 is a very old design, making her slow and ponderous. It's not about speed so much as making your destination easier to navigate before dark. There are dozens of lighter, more manageable and modern designs, with much more room per foot. Please, don't make the number one mistake many boat buyers make, choosing a boat by its aesthetics.
I wasn't at all impressed by my last boat's looks, but as the miles slid under her keel, I found her more attractive than I ever thought she could be. Back when I began sailing, that basic design (Island Packet 370) was all there was for crossing oceans, and it took me a long time to make, even the small change to a more modern design that I did, and I am so glad I did.

 

[jaysweet]

A lot to unpack. We were in a similar position about 15 years ago, owning a Sabre 30 that was fine and well suited to our usual week long or so cruises on Lake Ontario. Wanderlust has struck with us eyeing the St Lawrence River and the Bahamas, the 30 would be too small. Being more than a bit partial to Sabres we found a rare bird, a 362 that was almost affordable. Since COVID, we've done 2 long trips, first down the ICW to the Keys and Abacos and in 2024 out the St Lawrence River and to Florida.

The mid 30' range is a sweet spot, much more comfortable to live on and sail than a 30 footer, not as challenging to sail solo or with aging bodies as a 40+ footer. And cheaper to maintain and for docking in marinas. (The extra 6 feet between a 36 and a 42 foot boat adds up at $3 a foot for dockage.) One of the biggest differences between the 30 and 36 is weight. The 30 came in under 10K pounds, the 362 in cruising mode comes in around 16K lbs. Bigger anchors, heavier dock lines and less muscling the boat around a marina. Getting used to the extra weight and momentum took a bit, but it was doable.

The larger boat also means the forces are larger, the sails harder to manage, and the anchor is heavier. These challenges can be overcome. We added equipment, from a Tides track to an eWincher to help manage the loads. The headsail was reduce from a 150 to 135 making it is easier to handle with little loss of performance.

With planning and practice a boat in the mid 30s can be single handed. Last year I soloed from Annapolis to Brunswick, Georgia, about 800 miles. Granted it was on the ICW and I motored much more than sailed, still I managed to anchor and dock with little drama and enjoyed the journey.

Last October I was part of a panel at the Annapolis Boat Show on Geezer Cruzing with a few other septuagenarians. It was well attended and there are a lot of retirees looking cruise. It can be done, it's just done differently from the young YouTubers. Check the Boat Show program this summer, we may do the panel again.

This is just a quick overview of the accommodations we have made to keep cruising and sailing as we age. At 74 I'm trying to seduce my wife into wanting to sail back to the Bahamas 2027.

Dave,

Sounds like some nice trips you've taken! I'd love to do that, but prefer to stay married. So we make the best of things with compromise trips. My wife is not a fan of the 8-10 hour legs sailing, so she often drives and joins me, and I get a 2-day solo adventure. She likes the short trips just fine.

I don't think sailing a larger boat is all that much harder, but docking a 40+ foot boat solo would be interesting. Anchoring a larger boat is probably easier, since I don't currently have a windlass. As you may recall, I'm upgrading to the Tides sail track this year, which at the least, should make reefing easier.

 

[jaysweet]

Sunday musings,
Once up on a time I sailed on a Tanzer 26… a very light and spartan boat. I was tired of being tossed around when doing the lower St-Lawrence and the Great Lakes.
Nearing retirement I looked for a larger boat. A C&C Landfall 38 fit the bill. I used it to go to Bermuda, winter in the Bahamas and then go to the Azores, Lisbon, Cádiz, the Canaries, Barbados, St-Martin, Bermuda and back to Montreal via Nova Scotia and the St-Lawrence.
That done, the boat was in poor shape and I found it was too large a boat for me to single-hand. So I ordered a new Bénéteau 31. It had all the toys I wanted and none of the strainful stuff the 38 had. I’ve sailed or motored 20,000NM on this boat since new in 2008. I now have a co-owner (daughter) on the boat and find it more and more difficult to do the upkeep on it. My wife with failing health hasn’t been on board for the last three years.
This is to say that sailboats fit a need or a whim for a set period in time. As you presently find your boat too small, you will someday find the new one too big. If you accept the cost of change and don’t get too emotionnally attached go for it.

I've definitely come to realize at this age (mid-60's) that nothing is forever, to your point. I think all decisions will make sense for some period of time, whether it be 10 or 15 years (or maybe a bit longer). So yes: it's good to keep this in mind when considering a possible boat swap.

 

[jaysweet]

Well, Jay. We sailed our first boat (H28) for three years.Very tender, but easy to handle. Hooked, we sold her and bought a P42 in 2002. We've sailed her thousands of miles all over PNW waters. Very comfortable, roomy, stiff and fast. Was not impressed by the IP layout, or value, for that matter. We sail year around and have found her to handle rough weather very well. She just digs in.

If you'll forgive the paraphrasing, I think your observation amounts to: bigger boats are more stable and comfortable, even if they're not what's generally considered blue water boats. That's a good point: I wouldn't rule out a 35-37 foot Hunter/Cataline/Beneteau. Part of the "extra size" thing might be room for adding luxuries that I don't care about at all (like more batteries and an inverter), but my wife does, and these are easy to fit in a boat of that size range.

Pretty clearly, there are a lot of people who dislike IPs, but it seems to me, more that feel the other way. I would probably find a way to charter one first, before buying, if it ever came to that.

 

[jaysweet]

Not wishing to highjack this thread - but this line really caught my attention.

I'd really like to hear more about this part of your trip. It's one I've been considering but haven't found a lot of info on going "backwards" up the St. Lawrence. How long did you take going from Nova Scotia to Montreal? How was that leg of your trip? I could start a new thread or just PM you you directly if that would be better. Let me know.

dj

I think you need to paddle pretty hard to counteract the current...

 

[shemandr]

I think the low to mid thirties is a good practical size for a sailboat to be single handed or double handed. It is roomie enough if you don't load it up with a bunch of crap.
As for weight related to seaworthiness, I think it's more hull design that creates a comfortable ride. I had a 26' keelboat with a pretty flat forefoot. Yeah it slammed into a chop uncomfortably. Had the hull been more veered shaped in that area I think it would have been much more comfortable in a chop. I would point out that many of the cruising designs known for seaworthiness are in fact designed to sail off the wind. So they will not necessarily be comfortable in that Cheasy chop either.
All in all, I think a S&S inspired hull is a pretty good compromise in sea keeping, upwind ability and cabin space. I like a fractional rig for its easy adjustment of power and I wouldn't be without a windlass for geriatric cruising. That sorta adds up to a Tartan 33 with the Scheel keel. A great cruising platform but aging out.

 

[jssailem]

Jay you raise some great thoughts.

Getting ready to retire is a great time to identify the things you would like and then do them.

I moved from camping in a 15ft Trailer yacht to sailing a 35ft boat. I had looked at a 50-foot boat filled with plenty of features. But when I picked up the sail bag, I realized that my sailing solo days would be limited.

You need a boat that you can master if solo sailing (or sailing the boat with non-sailing guests) is in your future. 35-36 ft with a traditional hull and designed to manage a turbulent sea will make sailing in all conditions manageable, if not enjoyable. Choose a sail plan that you can handle. Smaller sails are better than one great big sail. Note Mast head sloops are jib priority sized. A Bermude rigged boat leans to large mainsails and smaller fractional jibs. A cutter rig is very versatile in sail plan.

Make a list. Certainly, a shower would be nice. I have on that is in the head. It uses a shower curtain to curtail the water. It is not an easy functional experience. It is not used. Shore showers are the norm. I am looking into a cockpit shower. Don't look if we are in the same anchorage.

You could use AC in the Chesapeake Bay. You would need to have heat if sailing year-round is desired. Heat is also nice in the shoulder sailing periods of early spring and late fall.

You know what you liked for the past 20 years. Incorporate those thoughts into a list of boat priorities. Then match boats to your list. Whatever you choose will be a compromise of important and doable features.

 

[dlochner]

Not wishing to highjack this thread - but this line really caught my attention.

I'd really like to hear more about this part of your trip. It's one I've been considering but haven't found a lot of info on going "backwards" up the St. Lawrence. How long did you take going from Nova Scotia to Montreal? How was that leg of your trip? I could start a new thread or just PM you you directly if that would be better. Let me know.

dj

From my experience going downstream on the St Lawrence going upstream is doable if you watch the tides and currents closely and understand the travel will be very slow. Current wise, the hardest section is from Quebec City up to Montreal. The upstream section from Cap A'gile to QC is long and slow with very limited opportunities to stop. From Cap A'gile to the Gulf of St Lawrence is not difficult and it is beautiful. The river gets wider and the currents are slower.

On our trip we met several boats from Montreal and QC that were on holiday and planned to sail back up to Montreal.

 

[dLj]

dj,

But there are times (mainly anchored in a little creek with big, fancy houses on the water) where I might prefer to do a full-on ordinary shower in a bit more privacy. Seems a bit rude to do that in someone's backyard, I guess...

It's quite easy to make a 360 privacy curtain around your cockpit shower such that you can use it anywhere at anytime. Very inexpensive, easy to put up and take down, and perfectly private.

dj

 

[william24424]

"Or maybe a Tartan 3700: more of a performance cruiser."

Yes. Plenty room for two & guests. A Tartan 3700 will probably be the last boat you'll need. I race against a Tartan 3700 & a Tartan 3500, they are very comfortable @ sea, make quick passages, handle rough ocean (Nantucket sound) and often impressively host appetizers/ drinks in their salons after the race.

Buddha might say comparison is the root of all discontent, I have compared the boats with my old Cal 33-2, understanding satisfaction is an internal state, not a result of worldly, material pursuits, which are insatiable.

I am grateful for my sailboat & having three kids in College. I will still meditate on an upgrade, perhaps in my next life. Good luck.

 

[jssailem]

Very Zen... @william24424

 

[FastOlson]

I know ship wrights and surveyors and none have a very positive opinion of the construction or sailing prowess of the IP line. I note that a Tartan 37 has been mentioned, and that's much nicer design and a better sailor.
FWIW, a restored Cal 35 cruiser is likely a nice performance cruiser. (Have not sailed one, but have been aboard one; I did crew a two day coastal delivery on a Cal 34-2, and really recommend it for a sea-kindly motion . Great design. )
Whatever the OP buys, I hope he's happy with it.

 

[BarryL]

Hello,

IMHO a boat in the 34-38' range would be just about perfect for you. Newer designs (really most boats after 2000) in that size will have a separate shower stall, and the ability to handle 20-25 kts wind without too much stress. The bigger boat will also be faster so you can cover sail further.

Over the years I went from a 22 to a 28, to a 35, then a 36 and finally to my 40. The 40 is by far the most comfortable and easiest to sail. I do feel that a 40' is the largest boat I can really manage because I can (just barely) carry the sails to / from the boat. My wife and I can put the sail on, take them off, and that sort of stuff. I've sailed on 44' boats and the sails are really too big and heavy for one person to manage.

I single handed all of my boats. In many ways the 40 is easiest because it has a below deck autopilot, powered winches, and a bow thruster. If you do plan on continuing to single hand on a bigger boat then a good reliable (preferably below deck) autopilot is pretty nice to have. I have a traditional main on my boat with the dutchman sail handling system and it means that I can easily raise and lower the main by myself. I have a furler for the headsail so that is easy. I also have a code 0 on a furler but I have not used that sail single handed (yet).

As mentioned previously, as time goes by your sailing wants and needs change and sometimes that means a different boat is a good choice.

Good luck,
Barry