Third Reef or Trysail?

pjacobs55 · Mar 15, 2008

Dieter,
This is a problem I am also considering. My thoughts so far:
- A third reef in the main is the least expensive.

- A triple-reefed main leaves a lot of sail loose to strap to the
boom. I think this is where a loose foot sail might work best as all
the sail ties don't have to go around the boom, just the sail.

- All the sail slugs on my furled main lie below the mast "gate",
which would allow threading a storm trisail in above it. This would
save having to attach a separate track for the trisail. (But I know
it would be easier to have a separate track!)

Somewhere in my travels on the WWW I found an idea for a sail which
could be used as a storm jib, or flipped over and used as a trisail.
It had jib hanks on the luff for the head stay, and sail slides along
the leech (which would become the luff) for use as a trisail.
Interesting idea...

One of my concerns about adding a third reef: Does the extra weight
of the reinforcement patches and the rings degrade light air
performance? I think Steve has three sets of reefs ... maybe he could
comment.

Peter
#1331 'Sin Tacha'

groundhogyh · Mar 16, 2008

This may sound stupid... but.... sometimes I am stupid. So here goes.
There is the handle on the boom were you roll the mainsail down. Seems to me you can just keep rolling untill you have no mainsail. What's the problem with that?
rb

pjacobs55 prjacobs@... wrote:
Dieter,
This is a problem I am also considering. My thoughts so far:
- A third reef in the main is the least expensive.

- A triple-reefed main leaves a lot of sail loose to strap to the
boom. I think this is where a loose foot sail might work best as all
the sail ties don't have to go around the boom, just the sail.

- All the sail slugs on my furled main lie below the mast "gate",
which would allow threading a storm trisail in above it. This would
save having to attach a separate track for the trisail. (But I know
it would be easier to have a separate track!)

Somewhere in my travels on the WWW I found an idea for a sail which
could be used as a storm jib, or flipped over and used as a trisail.
It had jib hanks on the luff for the head stay, and sail slides along
the leech (which would become the luff) for use as a trisail.
Interesting idea...

One of my concerns about adding a third reef: Does the extra weight
of the reinforcement patches and the rings degrade light air
performance? I think Steve has three sets of reefs ... maybe he could
comment.

Peter
#1331 'Sin Tacha'

stevebirch2002 · Mar 16, 2008

Problems with the roller boom reefing are:

No shape to the mainsail, lifts the boom up. Awful way to reef a main. Adapt for slab (jiffy) reefing. I have three reefs and have sailed up to F8 with ting foresail and 3rd reefed main and still comfortable.

Steve B

pjacobs55 · Mar 16, 2008

Roy,
My immediate answer would be "try it sometime" ... LOL
Warning: I'm going to offend all proponents of roller reefing
mainsails!
Let me explain:
First you have to disconnect the vang.
Then, as you roll the sail down, you have to let the sail slides out
of the gate one by one.
Then you have to remove the battens, as they are not parallel to the
boom (unless you have full-length battens).
Then, because a sail has a three dimensional shape, it starts to
bulge along the middle of the boom.
That's awkward enough, but then you have an increasing amount of
bulge around the gooseneck caused by the luff rope bunching up into a
huge mass around the boom.
And last, but not least, is the extreme reduction gear on the boom
crank (Series I) causing you to have to turn it a bazillion times to
accomplish all of the above.
Not an easy task, single-handed, in a rising gale, especially when
you could have slab reefed or doused the main completely in 90
seconds. (IMHO slab (jiffy) reefing is the only way to go.)

And hey, there are no 'stupid' questions

Peter
#1331 'Sin Tacha'

groundhogyh · Mar 16, 2008

Thanks...
rb

Steve Birch steve@... wrote:
Problems with the roller boom reefing are:

No shape to the mainsail, lifts the boom up. Awful way to reef a main. Adapt for slab (jiffy) reefing. I have three reefs and have sailed up to F8 with ting foresail and 3rd reefed main and still comfortable.

Steve B

pelagicasd · Mar 16, 2008

I definitely concur. Back in the old days (early 90s) I was caught by a gale on San Francisco Bay. I spent 3 days in the anchorage at Clipper Cove on Treasure Island. After I was fed up I attempted to return to my marina in the south bay with my trusty roller reefing deeply reefed. After 6 hours of getting nowhere I turned around and went to Pier 39. A very nice place to be stuck. Two days later the winds dropped and I went home.
San Francisco Bay is a great training ground. Winds light to heavy. Should I also mention shallow? I had lots of experience running aground which is good because then you learn how to get unstuck. Back to the winds, Has anyone else other than San Franscisco sailors heard of "hammer winds". When you are working on the boat in the slip and put the hammer down on the dock the wind blows it into the water. Heavy winds at times in San Francisco.
We debated trisail versus 3rd reef when we went to Mexico. Our sailmaker talked us out of the trisail and put in the 3rd reef point instead. Eliminates the need for a 2nd track and can be quickly done with jiffy reefing. Most people who cruise leave with projects yet to be done. We were no exception. We had jiffy reefing installed for the 1st and 2nd reef points with lines led aft so it could be done from the cockpit. Hadn't gotten around to running the line for the the 3rd reef point. As some of you already know we got caught on a lee shore with seas to 30 feet and gusts to 50 knots. We hove to with the 2 reefs and no jib. The jib mainsail combination essentially stops your progress. Using just the mail allows a slow sail to weather. When we got hit we had an advance forecast on the VHF and were heading offshore. We had time to review what we were going to do and had practiced it on San Francisco Bay. We were about 5 miles offshore when we hove to and the next morning showed us 12 miles from the beach. Only damage we sustained was one torn sail slide. We got into an anchorage below Hearst Castle and couldnt get the sail down because the slide had jammed in the track. Mast steps previously installed made that an easy fix.
The sailmaker in Morrow Bay came down to the boat, picked up the sail, fixed it and brought it back for $20.00. Before we left Morrow Bay we finished installing the line for the 3rd reef. Our next port was Los Angles where we put in a 2nd set of cockpit drains. Did I mention the cockpit being half full at times and taking way to long to drain? They say the best pump in the world is a scared sailor with a bucket! Best thing to have along with you though is a mate who doesn't panic. Walt S/V Lyric #120To: AlbinVega@yahoogroups.comFrom: prjacobs@...: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 16:05:45 +0000Subject: [AlbinVega] Re: Third Reef or Trysail?

Roy,My immediate answer would be "try it sometime" ... LOLWarning: I'm going to offend all proponents of roller reefing mainsails!Let me explain:First you have to disconnect the vang. Then, as you roll the sail down, you have to let the sail slides out of the gate one by one. Then you have to remove the battens, as they are not parallel to the boom (unless you have full-length battens). Then, because a sail has a three dimensional shape, it starts to bulge along the middle of the boom. That's awkward enough, but then you have an increasing amount of bulge around the gooseneck caused by the luff rope bunching up into a huge mass around the boom. And last, but not least, is the extreme reduction gear on the boom crank (Series I) causing you to have to turn it a bazillion times to accomplish all of the above.Not an easy task, single-handed, in a rising gale, especially when you could have slab reefed or doused the main completely in 90 seconds. (IMHO slab (jiffy) reefing is the only way to go.)And hey, there are no 'stupid' questions

Peter#1331 'Sin Tacha'

vegatern · Mar 16, 2008

Dieter,
Your trip sounds great. I hope you can find the time to share more of
it. You have much more experience than I, and I am reticent to put a
word in, however from what I've read, and for what it's worth, . . .
When the Coghlans left on their circumnavigation they had three reefs
and a storm jib. They later added a fourth reef and a smaller
"cyclone" jib. An account of their trip is in the voyages section at
the American Vega Assn website. The Tern has a third reef, though I
have yet to need it. Light air performance is put off a bit by, not
so much the reef points, but by the weight of the reefing lines
through the clew rings in the leech. I need just a little wind to
stretch out the sail. Some of this may be due to the fact that the PO
had the main cut with a shelf along the foot, a bit of a bag so to
speak. This issue has been rectified with the recent purchase of a
light weight drifter which works like a dream. ( I haven't thanked you
yet Ed, but you were right. Just the slightest ripple and we're
sailing again. Thanks)
I've been told that the Vega is too small for a trysail but
Tania Aebi used one on her Contessa 26 and I would think being able to
take stress off the main and boom may be helpful. I think I would
take the time to add a separate track, on the theory that is would be
easier to install at the dock than at sea the night I decided to use
it ;-) The other issue is where to run the two sheets. I suspect to
blocks in padeyes on deck somewhere and then back to what? The sheet
winch would be occupied by the jib sheet. Securing and adjusting a
flailing trysail sheet to a horned cleat sounds like trouble, though
perhaps, as Walt suggests, the jib would not be used.
Had a tremendous sail today, on someone else's boat. An honest
35 kts (well, gusting) and 6 ft swell. Sunday races. What fun!
Could someone tell me what IS the purpose of a "shelf" in the
mainsail?
Craig Tern #1519

SVFlyAway · Mar 16, 2008

A shelf foot is an extra panel sewn between the body of the main and the
boom. It is there to add extra "shape" to the main when the outhaul is eased
in light air. Sometimes it is of a slightly lighter weight cloth. Obviously
they aren't used on loose footed mains.

I have been reading the comments on trysails. I have to agree the Vega
already has a pretty small sail area. The big advantage of the trysail is
that is it loose footed. I've had them on bigger boats and usually used a
rope "horse" to control the clew. I used two stern cleats with a line
between the two. I also has a separate track. Trying to get a sail down and
then another sail up, when you realize you realize you need to do this
(obviously it is already pretty nasty) isn't easy to do. I've installed an
extra track next to the main track and it works OK. But again, I really
don't think it is necessary on a Vega.

From: AlbinVega@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AlbinVega@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of vegatern
Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2008 8:58 PM
To: AlbinVega@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AlbinVega] Re: Third Reef or Trysail?

Dieter,
Your trip sounds great. I hope you can find the time to share more of
it. You have much more experience than I, and I am reticent to put a
word in, however from what I've read, and for what it's worth, . . .
When the Coghlans left on their circumnavigation they had three reefs
and a storm jib. They later added a fourth reef and a smaller
"cyclone" jib. An account of their trip is in the voyages section at
the American Vega Assn website. The Tern has a third reef, though I
have yet to need it. Light air performance is put off a bit by, not
so much the reef points, but by the weight of the reefing lines
through the clew rings in the leech. I need just a little wind to
stretch out the sail. Some of this may be due to the fact that the PO
had the main cut with a shelf along the foot, a bit of a bag so to
speak. This issue has been rectified with the recent purchase of a
light weight drifter which works like a dream. ( I haven't thanked you
yet Ed, but you were right. Just the slightest ripple and we're
sailing again. Thanks)
I've been told that the Vega is too small for a trysail but
Tania Aebi used one on her Contessa 26 and I would think being able to
take stress off the main and boom may be helpful. I think I would
take the time to add a separate track, on the theory that is would be
easier to install at the dock than at sea the night I decided to use
it ;-) The other issue is where to run the two sheets. I suspect to
blocks in padeyes on deck somewhere and then back to what? The sheet
winch would be occupied by the jib sheet. Securing and adjusting a
flailing trysail sheet to a horned cleat sounds like trouble, though
perhaps, as Walt suggests, the jib would not be used.
Had a tremendous sail today, on someone else's boat. An honest
35 kts (well, gusting) and 6 ft swell. Sunday races. What fun!
Could someone tell me what IS the purpose of a "shelf" in the
mainsail?
Craig Tern #1519

neyorolf · Mar 17, 2008

Dear all,

Our mainsail has three reefs as well , very comfortable and easy to adapt to
the circumstances. Steve, what is a ting foresail (couldn?t find his in my
dictionary).

Flor oyen,

V566

_____

Van: AlbinVega@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AlbinVega@yahoogroups.com] Namens
Steve Birch
Verzonden: zondag 16 maart 2008 12:28
Aan: AlbinVega@yahoogroups.com
Onderwerp: Re: [AlbinVega] Re: Third Reef or Trysail?

Problems with the roller boom reefing are:

No shape to the mainsail, lifts the boom up. Awful way to reef a main. Adapt
for slab (jiffy) reefing. I have three reefs and have sailed up to F8 with
ting foresail and 3rd reefed main and still comfortable.

Steve B

papasbackhoeinc · Mar 18, 2008

Steve
Hope all is well with you and yours. Did you ever find the drawings for the tabernacle and A frame? Thank You Andi

groundhog groundhogyh@... wrote:
Thanks...
rb

Steve Birch steve@... wrote:
Problems with the roller boom reefing are:

No shape to the mainsail, lifts the boom up. Awful way to reef a main. Adapt for slab (jiffy) reefing. I have three reefs and have sailed up to F8 with ting foresail and 3rd reefed main and still comfortable.

Steve B