The Not-so-smart Voltage Regulator

[Gary Wyngarden]

This is another chapter in the continuing saga of my multi-stage voltage regulator problems.Just to review, about a year ago I bought a Balmar 110 Amp alternator and a Xantrex multi stage regulator and installed them on my Yanmar. Everything seemed to be working fine until my extended trip around Vancouver Island last summer.The multi-stage regulator is supposed to run the alternator at a bulk charge level for 36 minutes and then test to see if a threshold voltage of 14.6 (variable based on battery type) has been achieved. If the threshold voltage has been achieved the charging level is supposed to step down to the so-called acceptance level. If the threshold voltage has not been achieved, the regulator is supposed to continue to drive the alternator at the bulk charge level for additional 6 minute increments until threshold voltage is achieved.My problem has been that the regulator steps down after 36 minutes no matter what the voltage. I moved the red sensing wire from the alternator's positive output (first choice in the installation manual) back to the battery side of the battery selector switch. Same problem.Xantrex was unavailable by phone or by email to provide tech support. I finally said screw it and bought a Balmar Voltage regulator. The Balmar regulator and it's instructions were virtually identical to the Xantrex which indicated to me they were both made by the same people--a bad omen.Now I've installed the Balmar regulator and have the identical problem. The good news is I was able to get through to Balmar tech support. The bad news is I was able to get through to Balmar tech support. "Sure it steps down to acceptance charge after 36 minutes. That's what is supposed to do. You wouldn't want it to fry your batteries would you?"We went round and round on this with regard to the voltage sensing and the thresholds. His comments were "I don't care what the manual says, but that's what it's progammed to do." He also said, "I guess you can tell I don't think much of the ARS-4 Regulator." (That's the model I have.)The problem has no practical significance in most of my boat uasge, but is occasionally very important. We spent some long days motoring going around Vanouver Island last summer and will do so again on our upcoming trip to Alaska. Frequently we're running an autopilot, radar, and a computer all day long as well as a refrigerator. Combined draw can exceed ten amps or more. If the regulator steps down to a float charge level, consumption can exceed the charge and I can arrive at an anchorage with a depleted battery bank instead of one that is topped off. Sometimes we sit in an anchorage for two or three days waiting for weather.I'm to the point where I will reprogram the regulator to exrtend the time for the bulk and acceptance charge. I'll also manually manipulate the system by shutting it down and starting it over which will keep the charge level up on long days. But that seems like a damn shame when you buy a "smart" multistage regulator.Does anyone have one of these that actually works? Any other suggestions? Thanks for your help.Gary WyngardenS/V Wanderlust h37.5

 

[Rick Sylvester]

I've got the same set up

which is to say a Balmar 70-110 and the ARS-4. So far (4 years) it's worked beautifully.It almost sounds like you've got a problem with your field voltages. I'd double check all the connections (routing) for your ARS-4 harness. If you haven't done so already, perform the voltage checks for the red, brown and blue wires (sense, ignition and field) of the harness as outlined on page 11 of the ARS-4 manual and see what your readings are. Those numbers will tell you whether the field and sense readings are corresponding to each other correctly and will probably be more meaningful to both you and the tech guy at Balmar.Another diagnostic tool as well as a "get me home" charging method is rigging a jumper cable to connect a 12-volt source directly to the field connection on the back of the alternator. This will run the alternator at full output. Be careful doing this because with no regulator there's no "ramping down" and it could cook your batteries if you're not monitoring things. This strategy is also outlined in the Balmar manual.Hope this helps.

 

[Stu Jackson]

ARS-4

Gary, I understand the shut down and restart trick, good idea.One other thing I can think of, in addition to Rick's good ideas, is to reset and reprogram the regulator itself. Try setting up your own unique program rather than the defaults if the ARS lets you do that (I forget is only the MaxCharge does that or if you can with the ARS).The second is: are your batteries full and don't need more than the bulk charge, based on the battery bank's acceptance rate? It seems, however, from your description, that you've "depleted" your house bank from two or three days on the hook and KNOW that it needs more bulk charge.How big is your house bank? I assume you're using either a combiner or echo charge for your start bank. Stu

 

[Gary Wyngarden]

Details

For testing purposes, I've deliberately run down my house bank by drawing about 7 amps for 24 hours in the slip with the AC charger off. I've left myself an access to the regulator's sensing wire so I can monitor the voltage it's receiving with my digital multimeter.That's how I know it's not up to the 14.6 volt threshold when the regulator steps down from the bulk charge to the acceptance charge.My house bank consists of four 6 volt golf cart batteries wired in two pairs of series connections with about 400 ah.Gary WyngardenS/V Wanderlust h37.5

 

[Stu Jackson]

Another thought

GaryIf you are going to be doing a lot of motoring, why not leave the bulk charge time where it is and only extend the acceptance period? The 110 amp alternator should then be continuing to put out in excess of what you are drawing, and not go into float. Just a thought. As long as you have your "stop-and-go-again" method handy (unless you're in the middle of the rapids!!!) you should be OK. Sure is frustrating to have this happen, first time I've heard of it.StuStu

 

[Fred Ficarra]

Gary,

One thing has me scratching my head. When you say that the regulator steps down to 'float charge' and your accessories will draw more than the float output,,,,,??? The regulator is suppose to instantly raise the output of the alternator to carry any load, up to the capacity of the alternator. Are you seeing a discharge when in float phase? If so, I'd be tearing into that system. Something is not right. Have you opened up the alternator?And it's not surprising that Balmar and Xantrex have similar instructions. No one has re-invented the alternator for a long time. Can you send it over. I'll fix it.OK, after more re-reading, looking for clues, I slammed face first into a big one. You said everything worked fine until your TRIP! That's when you start to put a big load on that small case Balmar alternator. If you have solder between the diodes of the rectifier, that's your problem. The solder melted. You've blown at least part of the rectifier and thusly the alternators capacity is reduced a corresponding amount for each diode lost. (six installed) Check out my web site. Go to photo #53 for a description of this problem and a look at my cure.

 

[Gary Wyngarden]

Stu

Those are my thoughts as well. I'd be happy to keep the alternator at the acceptance charge level. It looks like the allowable program changes though will extend both the bulk charge as well as the acceptance.I'm wodering how rare this is or whether I'm looking at it differently than others. Who knows?Thanks for your input.Gary WyngardenS/V Wanderlust h37.5

 

[Gary Wyngarden]

Fred

I first noticed this phenomenon on my trip last summer, but I doubt it was new. On our short trips around here, I'm either sailing or running the engine for short periods that would not be long enough to run through the bulk and acceptance charge time periods.I may be wrong, but I think the problem is not with the alternator. It's output is just fine. It does what the regulator asks. It's just that the regulator is not doing what it's supposed to based on the voltage it's sensing.Thanks for your input on this.Gary WyngardenS/V Wanderlust h37.5

 

[Stu Jackson]

Fred's right on

Garycheck out Fred's reference. He's VERY good at this and has well documented his work.It could well be, as Fred says, it's the alternator, NOT the regulator.I just tried the easy out solution without getting to the heart of the potential problem.Good luck, and remember what Fred said, he'll do it for you! What a deal! Plus you get to meet Fred.StuPS Gary, I wrote this just as you were responding to Fred. So, that changes things, except for the last paragraph above. Gary & Fred - sounds like something we should follow and see if there's anymore input. I'll work with our C34 guys. Tom S of the C36 gang should also be interested.

 

[Fred Ficarra]

Yep, ya gotta drop it off in PERSON.

 

[Fred Ficarra]

And as far as this problem being common,

all I know is what happened to me AND the alternator man at Powell River said that these new multistage regulators are giving him more work than he can handle. He was talking about alternator melt-down.Gary, If you've never opened an alternator, have someone show you how to do it. Pay attention when it's bolted back together too. Note how the brushes are retained for assembly. On modern boats, it's a worthwhile skill to learn. And I keep going back looking for clues. Question; How do you know that the alternator is putting out what it's suppose to? What is the maximum amperage output? And the voltage. And not with the regulator controlling it. I mean on the bench, at your local DC shop. Two regulators showing the exact same problem. That's a clue.

 

[Gary Wyngarden]

I'm Missing Something

There is nothing I'd like more than to leave my island paradise to come down to Seabeck to see Fred for a "free" consult and repair. You did say this was free right???But I don't understand something. My problem is that the voltage regulator times out at 36 minutes and reduces the charge even though the voltage in the sensor is below the 14.6 volt threshold. How can this be an alternator problem?Gary WyngardenS/V Wanderlust h37.5

 

[Fred Ficarra]

You'll have to review the regulator programming

values. Maybe it's seeing no battery voltage increase during that time so it thinks it's time to power down. Maybe it's set for AGMs. Na, you wouldn't do that. But 'cause and effect' could be fooling you into thinking the regulator is bad when BOTH regulators might be responding to what a bad alternator is putting out. And 14.6 volts is what melted three rectifiers before I solved the problem.(one during sea trials) I set the threshold now at 14.2. And I don't have a soldered rectifier now either. Oh, it's gonna cost ya. Bring MGD.

 

[Moody Buccaneer]

Um ...

How many amps do you have to feed into a 400AH bank to get the voltage up to 14.6?How does that compare to the constant rating of the alternator?What temperature is the alternator running at after 30 minutes at that output?I have no idea, but these are the questions I would start with after getting the same results with two regulators.

 

[Fred Ficarra]

Gary, can you help me out?

And be the first to access my new web site? A really real one! I have a DOMAIN! Epitomesrebuild.com! Let me know how it works, OK? It's exactly the same as my old one, and the old one still works. But now I can tell someone, with word of mouth, what my address is. I'm pumped.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Get pumped

FredIt works, just one pop up ad.Stu

 

[Fred Ficarra]

Thanks Stu,

What's the ad for? I didn't do it.

 

[Stu Jackson]

It's for

helping pets impacted by Hurricane Katrina. Coulda been worse.Stu

 

[Fred Ficarra]

Thanks Stu. I put that banner there. I'm an

animal lover.

 

[Gary Wyngarden]

Looks good, Fred

Sorry to be slow with the response. I'm in NC working this week. Yuck. Glad when I can fully retire.Web site looks good. Pix are a little slow to load, but I'm working off a questionable wireless connection in a hotel. More later.Gary WyngardenS/V Wanderlust h37.5