The Monster Returns

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Feb 6, 1998
11,674
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
I remembering back to where all this started and it was always "I was motoring in sloppy seas".... Read that two or three times, consider your already steep angle of the motor, and just chalk it up to the egg beater syndrome..;) In flat seas no problem in lumpy seas problems...........
 

xcyz

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Jan 22, 2008
174
Hunter 376
My bet is elsewhere.

Thanks AC. The question and point I tried to bring to light was/if Roger had experienced this same issue previously. From reading his posts he has owned the boat with the same engine configuration long enough to have had it in sloppy sea's before. I may have missed it but I didn't see where Roger had the same issue occur until recently.

I completely understand the dynamics of oil, oil-pressure, oil pans/sumps and baffles. Oil pickup tubes are pretty much buried in the bottom of the pan and find it hard to think that all 5 +/- quarts of oil foamed and caused the oil alarm to light.

I'm not debating or arguing but my bet is on something else.
-RG
 
Jan 30, 2012
1,123
Nor'Sea 27 "Kiwanda" Portland/ Anacortes
People:

Maine Sail is right. Every time Roger has his oil leak events he also mentions that steep seas preceed the event. Also - please note these oil leak events have been infrequent and none happen at any particular time interval. And - please also note that these leaks are not accumulations from seeping - the onset is abrupt and Roger describes them as of significant quantity.

What Roger describes today (to say nothing of similar times in the recent past) with this motor presents a simple oil discharge question - but it is not a seeping seal, nor oil burning, nor oil going overboard together with cooling water discharge.

Nonetheless - we advise Roger concerning cylinder head torque values, how one should have gone about motor inspection/repair and a host of other things. Some of us even profess to have a "complete understanding the dynamics of oil, oil-pressure, oil pans/sumps and baffles." Dispite this impressive demonstation of how much we know - not one of us has been able to tell Roger anything useful concerning why the events Roger describes are happening.

Is it possible for us to answer the question: How can infrequent, yet significant oil discharge be explained ?

Seems to me Roger is probably more interested in the answer to that question - than all the other interesting but completely useless observations we have so far offered.

Charles

Edited for spelling.
 
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Jun 3, 2004
70
ODAY 28 bayside
They say what doesn't kill you strenghtens you !
yes but at a cost, STRESS. You will triumph. It won't kill you.
grow in confidence as the teaching learning continue to solving crisis.
 
Nov 22, 2008
3,562
Endeavour 32 Portland, Maine
Is it possible for us to answer the question: How can infrequent, yet significant oil discharge be explained?
I think now, yes. Part of this is a recap of posts above.

First oil discharge cause:

The engine had the crankcase breather improperly installed when I got the boat. It was just led to open air near the intake instead of a nipple on a suction part of the intake manifold. This caused oil discharge over the years to soak my starter windings. MaineSail suggested an automotive air/oil separator which he has installed on many boats without problems. However, mine has both design and installation issues that make it particularly sensitive to crankcase pressure. Pitching the day before sent oil into the separator soaking the element and slightly raising the pressure. The breather is supposed to be under negative pressure on the engine anyway. I thought at the time I might not have properly seated the dipstick when changing the oil the day before but now think it may have simply popped out.

The causes of this incident were eliminated by removing the element from the separator, turning it into a simple liquid trap and finding the proper suction termination for the breather line.

High oil event this summer:

(Previously reported by not discussed in these recent threads.)

This along with excessive condensation and foam flecks in the liquid trap was, in hindsight, clearly the early warning of the head gasket failure. Very small amounts of salt water were getting into the oil.

Mount Hope Bay oil loss:

Sudden complete failure of the portion of the head gasket between the cooling and low pressure oil return passages.

Connecticut River Entrance oil loss:

Very slight over filling with oil by the mechanic in Portsmouth. No real fault of his, I was being conservative about the oil level, knowing about the oil issue. I believed him when he thought I could go a bit higher. It turns out I have been operating for years right at the limit for operating the engine in rough water. There was no way, without some complex measurements, that either of us could have known how close to the line I was. He did a great job overall. Oil contacted the crank in heavy pitching and was whipped into foam.

Partial oil loss at the dock that evening:

I still hadn't figured out the previous oil loss. I was also tired so I put in the same amount of oil without stopping to think that I probably hadn't gotten as much out of the engine as was done with the better equipment in Portsmouth. Oil also wasn't as hot when I pumped it out. Oil level was probably higher than before. Dipstick is very hard to read on this boat.

The engine "burped" out the lost oil in the last event. I haven't added any oil since. It seemed like a lot when cleaning it out of the drip pan and bilge but it wasn't very much. Dipstick hold down should now contain any transient overpressure.

The engine was also showing quite a bit of crankcase pressure the next morning, possibly due to oil or foam remaining in places. By mid morning, this had entirely disappeared. A similar hold over effect from the major oil loss at the river mouth may also have contributed to the dockside event.

I now have 56.5 hours of operation, including some pitching, with the dipstick level about 1/8" below where I have usually kept it.

It is now fully explained to my satisfaction.
 
Feb 26, 2004
22,780
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
Forensics, analysis and a tad o'rest is always helpful. Fascinating. And, most of all, glad you're on your way. Fair winds, safe journey (again).

Now, do we get Hells Gate pictures this time? :)
 
Dec 30, 2009
680
jeanneau 38 gin fizz sloop Summer- Keyport Yacht Club, Raritan Bay, NJ, Winter Viking Marina Verplanck, NY
I bought stock, in oil, Should I cancel it Roger....All kidding aside how much oil do u think u have used in this adventure...Your theory appears sound, these engines do some funky things in heavy water.....good luck on your voyage...on your way thru jersy, I am in keyport or nyc area if u should need assistance....Red
 
Feb 26, 2004
22,780
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
Thanks, Brian, but the Brooklyn, Williamsburg and Manhattan bridges are hardly Hells Gate.
 
Nov 22, 2008
3,562
Endeavour 32 Portland, Maine
Thanks, Brian, but the Brooklyn, Williamsburg and Manhattan bridges are hardly Hells Gate.
Hell's Gate is actually pretty disappointing both from the scenery and the water turbulence aspect. The name over hypes it, unlike the Hell Gate in Maine, and a photo of it would be fairly disappointing.

I'll try to remember to get one for you though if we aren't going though at night. That's one plan although I promised myself I would never try it again. There is a lot of commercial traffic that doesn't expect to encounter sailboats in very confined waters with fast current.
 
Feb 26, 2004
22,780
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
I understand. The land around ain't great, but the Throg's Neck, Triboro and that RR bridge parallel to the Triboro can be neat. That's, although, from a guy who probably has more pictures of the Golden Gate and Bay Bridges than most others.
 

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May 27, 2012
1,152
Oday 222 Beaver Lake, Arkansas
Nonetheless - we advise Roger concerning cylinder head torque values, how one should have gone about motor inspection/repair and a host of other things. Some of us even profess to have a "complete understanding the dynamics of oil, oil-pressure, oil pans/sumps and baffles." Dispite this impressive demonstation of how much we know - not one of us has been able to tell Roger anything useful concerning why the events Roger describes are happening.

Is it possible for us to answer the question: How can infrequent, yet significant oil discharge be explained ?

Seems to me Roger is probably more interested in the answer to that question - than all the other interesting but completely useless observations we have so far offered.

Charles

Charles. Read post #38 of this thread, followed by Rogers post below.

There wouldnt really be any kind of inspection any mechanic could have made on a static engine regarding this issue, other than noting the engines tilt angle is excessive. This is a dynamic problem, one that basically takes sea trials to bring about.

The fault lies in the boats design, not the engine. Had the boat builder placed the engine within its designed range of mounting angle, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

If you read back through Rogers threads, you can begin to see the picture. Other than the head gasket issue, all the oil issues came about in tossing seas.

Most of our boats live on tranquil ponds. Most of us arent out in rough weather and avoid it, and most of us never leave the ocean shore and travel beyond sight of land. Its probably safe to say, therefore, that some other boat/engine setups, could experience similar problems in similar conditions. In fact it has happened, and does happen. The fix is knowing the engine, reading the installation manual, and checking the installation is correct, before you buy the boat. But this thread will slip away, and months and years from now no one will remember any of it.
 
Nov 22, 2008
3,562
Endeavour 32 Portland, Maine
checking the installation is correct, before you buy the boat.
Actually, having designed dozens of boat and marine powertrains, I noted the excessive angle when we bought the boat. I figured thought that any problems would have shown up in 35 years of experience with the model and been discussed on the owner's web site.

I can only conclude that few owners of these boats drive as hard as I do. We actually bought the boat for the kind of easy, flat water sailing with kids that most people do but my life took some strange turns.

I've had quite a bit of rough water experience with the boat in past years with no problems but it was in the longer seas of the north. These shallow water square waves are different. Since the engine is raw water cooled, the thermostat has to be set too low for optimum diesel operation. It's a very cool running engine, I don't anticipate any oil temperature problems running at a level low enough to avoid foaming problems.
 
Nov 22, 2008
3,562
Endeavour 32 Portland, Maine
Also over hyped as far as passage difficulty is concerned, the Reversing Falls of New Brunswick:



I've been through a few times when it was a bit calmer than this. Going up once against the stream, it was quite a sight to stand in the cockpit just starting in and realize that I was looking right along the waters surface at the other side. That's about a six foot drop in the passage.

Going the other way, a little earlier than most people, being an impatient sort, I could feel the boat drop as I passed the mill. It was just like that feeling when an elevator starts down.

Now, here is the real Hell Gate. I've gone through headed NW with the GPS reading 1 knot and dipping below while dealing with the swirls.



Note that the scale is the length of a football field. Strider is 1/10 of that length and it looks a whole lot narrower when you are in it and realize you can't turn around but will have to back out by easing the throttle if you can't get through.

I think the anchor is dragging on this thread.
 
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