The internet as a source of information.

[Ross]

We often have discussions here about products or methods related to boats and boating.
I have found that if I enter a subject for a search I get hits by many contributers. I never get a dozen hits that completely agree with each other. So when I find conflict I continue my search and resolve the questions.

Choose any subject and enter a search and you will get several hits that are biased by market interest and several more that are hearsay and not based on actual experience and testing.

I have several shelves of books related to gardening, boating, cabinet making, cooking, building construction, general science and some specifics. I have these because different writers have different perspectives and all knowledge is evolving. The things that I learned in high school are sometimes still as dependable as they were 55 years ago, but some things have been revised and rewritten.

When you do an internet search for anything don't stop when you find an answer you like if you have seen answers that don't agree with your wishes. Learn why there are other opinions.

If you search for aluminum house wiring you will find a broad range of answers concerning it. If it has been done properly it is reliable but it is very easy to not do it well and then it can cause problems. So you need more than just that much information. You must learn how to do it properly and where all of the ways to produce faults are hidden.
The use of wirenuts in house wiring seems very straight forward but many times I have pulled the cover off a box and had wirenuts fall out because the DIY hadn't tightened them adequately.

Learn in depth about not only how to sail your boat but how to care for all of the systems also.

 

[JoeD]

Great post Ross.

" The use of wirenuts in house wiring seems very straight forward but many times I have pulled the cover off a box and had wirenuts fall out because the DIY hadn't tightened them adequately"

Might want to check out 60hz vibration. Could have been the cause of wire nuts falling off or coming loose. Not to many people know what 60 hz really is and what it does. But they also could have been install wrong as you have stated.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Ah, finally

Ross, thanks so much for that. Over the years I have been castigated by many for suggesting that folks do some "homework or research" before asking a question. One fellow actually wrote back and said, "It's easier for me to ask the question and have you do the work for me!" As a result, I learned to provide both suggestions to do searches on their own, as you have, as well as providing helpful links, some of which were just "starters" for them to get going on their own.

The other thing I find frustrating is that folks sometimes make it obvious that they haven't even bothered to read the links that so many of us provide.

I believe the frustration comes from two things: 1) lack of doing own research and 2) same questions, over and over.

The first is answered quite well by the sticky at the top of each topic posting forum: How to Ask Questions on this Forum. I think it's by far the best "How To" I've ever seen. http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=117188

The second is obvious that there are many newcomers to the Forum, which is really a welcome sign, and we're all here to help point them in the right direction. The search engine on this 'board is pretty good. So is, as you said, Google. Sometimes it brings you right back here!

Keep the questions coming.

Oh, one other thing: there's always the "What's the BEST...?" type of question. It's like asking your mother what the best girl to marry is! Just ain't gonna happen! http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?p=761917#post761917

 

[Johnb]

One thing I find especially frustrating is when folks are asking electrical questions and no one posts a wiring diagram, either in the question or reply. I just don't see how words can substitute for a simple sketch.

It is not that hard to do - if you don't have a drawing program just draw it on a piecce of paper and photograph it.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Yea! I second that, although these two links describe some basic issues that everyone with an electrical question oughta read first:

Here are two good "intro" courses for Electrical Systems:

http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4949.0.html

http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=104505&page=2

Questions? Ask away.

 

[Ross]

Try to discribe in words the wiring of a set of three way switches and the load.

 

[Ross]

Great post Ross.

" The use of wirenuts in house wiring seems very straight forward but many times I have pulled the cover off a box and had wirenuts fall out because the DIY hadn't tightened them adequately"

Might want to check out 60hz vibration. Could have been the cause of wire nuts falling off or coming loose. Not to many people know what 60 hz really is and what it does. But they also could have been install wrong as you have stated.

When wirenuts are properly tightened the internal spring cuts grooves in the wire and the pigtails are twisted. The ones that fall off don't leave any marks on the wires.

 

[JoeWhite]

The only reason a wire-nuts or wing-nuts falls off is that it is the wrong size or the wire has not been stripped and twisted properly - like the ones in my house!

 

[Ross]

Joe get a box of wire nuts and read the instructions. There is a strip gauge on the box and instructions about making all of the cut ends even and applying the wire nut. If they are properly tightened they won't fall off. A wire may pull out because the ends were not even when the nut was applied. The box also has a table of the wire combinations in numbers and sizes. There are some that will hold 2-#18's up to 4-#12's or any combination of that. There are limits to the number of conductors allowed per cubic inch in a junction box.

 

[Maine Sail]

When wirenuts are properly tightened the internal spring cuts grooves in the wire and the pigtails are twisted. The ones that fall off don't leave any marks on the wires.

Ross,

I was taught long ago by a good friend, who is a master electrician, that solid wires are best wire nutted by physically twisting together the wires with lineman's pliers then trimming them to length with dikes before installing a the wire nut. It does not take much longer and allows you to see the physical twist and connection of the wires before adding the nut which really tightens everything together.

He is fully aware that the nut manufacturers say it is okay to install and get the twist from the nut but he's pretty adamant, and dead set against it, and claims to have seen hundreds and hundreds of failures, most done by professionals, by not pre-twisting then cutting flush. He says most pro's don't want to spend the extra few seconds to pre-twist so the nut manufacturers design them and get them passed for "twist on" application. Even amongst the pros there seems to be contention over the "proper" application.

Once the nut is installed he taught me to twist the wires together so they are twisted a min of about 1" below the nut to prevent strain on the nut..

Never once had an issue doing this but have seen a fair number of jobs where the wires were simply placed side by side and the nut threaded over them with no twisting of the bare copper wires together, just side by side int=die the nut with minimal if any twist. 100% of the was load carried by only the nut but not from any twisting of the wires.

Good post!

 

[Ross]

There are wire nuts made for machine tool wiring that are a cylindrical clamp with a set screw and a plastic cap that insulates the connection.
High Temperature with Set Screw

High Temperature with Set Screw


High-temperature connectors with set screw firmly hold wires with a set screw on an inner barrel. An insulating plastic outer shell threads over the inner barrel. Great for high-vibration applications. Rated to 302° F.

No. of Wires (AWG Wire Size)

MinimumMaximumColorPkg.
Qty.Per
Pkg.1(#14) & 1(#20)3(#14) & 2(#18)Black106878K95$8.321(#16) & 3(#18)2(#10) & 1(#12)Black106878K97



As you can see they are not cheap.

 

[Hermit Scott]

Great post Ross.

" The use of wirenuts in house wiring seems very straight forward but many times I have pulled the cover off a box and had wirenuts fall out because the DIY hadn't tightened them adequately"

Might want to check out 60hz vibration. Could have been the cause of wire nuts falling off or coming loose. Not to many people know what 60 hz really is and what it does. But they also could have been install wrong as you have stated.

I was doing some elec. work at the shop here recently and came across an electrical box with a giant wire clamp that was electrical taped. There was a hole burned in the front of the box, I guess from the 60 hz vibrating the clamp against the box cover wearing away at the tape.
On a side note, I ran some wires that were unfused at the box in a metal conduit to the breaker box for that run. I had to shut the power off to the building and had minimal light to hook it all up at the big box, and some of my labels got marred pulling through the conduit. I wired a ground and a 120 wrong, so the ground was actually hot. I went inside and was hooking lines to the breaker and was holding the hot ground wire in my hand and rubbung the copper with my thumb. I felt a little bit of a shock like 9V on the tongue. I thought that this just couldn't be right. So I touched it to the grounded box and sparks flew. I guess I didn't get shocked because I was sitting on a plastic cooler, with dry feet and not grounded.
I thought that if I touched a hot wire it would immediately shock me. Another nomination but another year passed by for the Darwin.

 

[Ross]

Hermit , The only time I have been aware of 60 hertz vibration is in the laminations of transformers and light ballasts. Much more likely the large clamp was pinched in the box and the tape compromized. You can't work in the dark with wire. I like to think that i am defusing an anti personnel land mine when I am dealing with unknown electrical connections. Just one slip and I am a gone goose.

 

[arghhh]

When in doubt get your meter out. 1 minute to double check it is better than your loved ones getting a phone call.

I do a lot of 480v work, a 1600 amp breaker won't even feel you. Be safe and don't rush it. I have witnessed a phase to phase bolted short due to rushing and not double checking. Those are the ones where you hope you have extra pants in the truck.

 

[Hermit Scott]

When working with electricity I have a method no matter what. I meter it. Then I touch metal together to ground it to see if it sparks. Then I quickly touch it with my fingers. I didn't do it this time because I actually shut the electricity off to the box BUT I connected the wires to the hot side.
I threw the shut off arm on the right, but those smaller black cables going into the connection at the top is where I came off of.
I did meter one of the 'hot wires' on the breaker(just to be sure). But it was the ground.
Ross the land mine analogy is a good one. I just sat there thanking god for a few minutes before I started in again.

 

[Ross]

I saw a man that was caught in a 6600 volt accident at the steel mill. he and his crew checked to see if a circuit was hot with a 1000 volt meter and the high voltage blew right through it and made an arc fire. He was like a bug caught in an arc welder flame.

 

[FastOlson]

"Plus One"

Ross,

I was taught long ago by a good friend, who is a master electrician, that solid wires are best wire nutted by physically twisting together the wires with lineman's pliers then trimming them to length with dikes before installing a the wire nut. It does not take much longer and allows you to see the physical twist and connection of the wires before adding the nut which really tightens everything together.

He is fully aware that the nut manufacturers say it is okay to install and get the twist from the nut but he's pretty adamant, and dead set against it, and claims to have seen hundreds and hundreds of failures, most done by professionals, by not pre-twisting then cutting flush. He says most pro's don't want to spend the extra few seconds to pre-twist so the nut manufacturers design them and get them passed for "twist on" application. Even amongst the pros there seems to be contention over the "proper" application.

Once the nut is installed he taught me to twist the wires together so they are twisted a min of about 1" below the nut to prevent strain on the nut..

Never once had an issue doing this but have seen a fair number of jobs where the wires were simply placed side by side and the nut threaded over them with no twisting of the bare copper wires together, just side by side int=die the nut with minimal if any twist. 100% of the was load carried by only the nut but not from any twisting of the wires.

Good post!

My father was a journeyman electrician for decades, up thru a supervisor lic. for industrial high voltage.
When he did household wiring stuff he also used the same procedure that your "master electrician" advised. Since the older wire nuts did not have the "skirt" that is molded onto the newer ones, he used to lastly secure the nut with some black tape that went a couple wraps around the exposed twisted wires, too.
Never a failure.

L

 

[Ross]

Re: "Plus One"

Just for the interest of this thread google " NEC wire nuts ". It is amazing the discussions you can find.

 

[Maine Sail]

Just for the interest of this thread google " NEC wire nuts ". It is amazing the discussions you can find.

More contentious than anchors or crimp vs. solder. One thing we know for sure though is that wire nuts are verboten on boats...

My buddy Darren actually fired a guy over wire nuts. Darren owns the company and the guy refused to install nuts the way Darren wanted on his jobs, so, gone....Over a few extra seconds per termination the guy gave up a great job..

 

[Ctskip]

This may be true when looking for information about a solid thing like rock wall building or shingling a roof or making electrical connections. There are correct ways and there are incorrect ways, sometimes the correct ways vary, but are still correct. Whats accepted by one organization, doesn't necessarily mean it's accepted by all organizations. But what about finding out about a pension plan or a trust or even a charitable organizations source of funding and exactly how much of the donated dollar actually goes to the intended recipient and how much goes to the organization itself ? Like where all the funding comes from to operate the UL (Underwriters Laboratory)? Years ago it was a blessing to have the UL label, now thats not so. The label can be bought and has been proven to be so. Yet they are still in business.

I recently did a fiberglass job and went to West Marine. Useless. I scoured the internet . I stopped and asked questions at boat repair facilities. All had varying methods for doing the same job. I put over three months researching from one coast to another and wound up doing what I felt was best for my situation. I learned how to STOP rotted wood from decaying further. I'm very happy and I feel I got the best job and used the best materials I could find for my particular situation. My suggestion would be don't believe everything one can get off the internet.
Information that is gathered off the internet is only as good as the people who enter it and what their motive for entering is. Kinda like Wikipedia. When they first started, they were hit or miss. Being called on the carpet in several incidents, lately, they admitted their reporting of research was faulty. Yet they listed their "works" on the internet. And it was regarded as the gospel truth by some. Not so anymore. Questions remain
I would suggest anyone doing any kind of research, be it the internet or the library, check out several avenues of information. Simply because it's on the internet doesn't mean it's the gospel truth, same goes for the printed word.
I call it, in search of the truth. Who you gonna believe?

Keep it up,
Ctskip

PS: I've always twisted the wires and wire nutted them, then wrapped with electrical tape when working on the house. On the boat, I solder then several layers of liquid rubber tape followed with shrink wrap.