Okay, I know this is the ultimate newby question, but I just got my 'new to me' 2000' 240 sailboat and loving it. I have read all the reviews and agree with most of them as to how tender the 240 is in just about any type of wind. My question is how easy or hard is it to capsize the 240 in winds under 15 knots or under any speed wind? It feels like it could go without much warning, but that is a feeling that I have to get used to. I have to believe that the wind would spill off the sails before you actually go over. I am just and inland lake dwelling sailor. Any insight and encouragement would be good. Thanks, Capt Woody
Tender 240
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no worries mate
I've only been a Hunter sailor for a couple years and have learned "on the fly" as you will do. You can spend some time going in circles, but I wouldn't worry about capsize. I also am on an inland lake that can whip up pretty well in 15 to 25 kt breezes, but shortening the sails and following the "feel" will keep you upright. If you go to the Hunter 26 Spec page and look at the pictures sent in by H26 owners, mine is "cruisin' the Finger Lakes". Thay was taken on a day with 15kt winds and we were having a GREAT time.
I've only been a Hunter sailor for a couple years and have learned "on the fly" as you will do. You can spend some time going in circles, but I wouldn't worry about capsize. I also am on an inland lake that can whip up pretty well in 15 to 25 kt breezes, but shortening the sails and following the "feel" will keep you upright. If you go to the Hunter 26 Spec page and look at the pictures sent in by H26 owners, mine is "cruisin' the Finger Lakes". Thay was taken on a day with 15kt winds and we were having a GREAT time.
Tender, but...
...not to worry. I've had my 240 out in gusts well over thirty knots. It is not going to capsize, Capt. Woody, unless you get hit broadside by a breaking wave, six feet minimum. So, you simply can not go over in a lake. What will happen is that the boat will round up, and spill wind, as you've indicated. It likes to be reefed at about 15 knots and will go like a trooper to windward up to almost 25 knots. Above that, it starts to get a little hairy!! Congrats on your new boat - enjoy.
...not to worry. I've had my 240 out in gusts well over thirty knots. It is not going to capsize, Capt. Woody, unless you get hit broadside by a breaking wave, six feet minimum. So, you simply can not go over in a lake. What will happen is that the boat will round up, and spill wind, as you've indicated. It likes to be reefed at about 15 knots and will go like a trooper to windward up to almost 25 knots. Above that, it starts to get a little hairy!! Congrats on your new boat - enjoy.
Reef early
Its tender but a great boat within its limits. Weve had our 2000 H240 since July and have enjoyed it very much. Hauled it all over the place trying to escape our extended red tide in Sarasota last year. The trade off is that being a WB trailer boat you will have to reef the main in anything over 14-15mph wind speed. It does heel eaisily but once it settles in at about 20 degrees it firms up pretty well. If you need confidence, stow the gear real well and rail it over. It will only go so far and then in protest simply round up into the wind. Might not try this with a wife or uninitiated crew
Is Sorrentto Fla Near Lake Harris in mid Fla? We are heading up on April 1st for a local race that is hosted by a group I bumped into at http://www.cfyc.com/ They seem like a small, casual group and have a nice lake & ramps too. Did 25mi up the coast last Friday in 15mph wind with following seas (wahoo), compared to the shot below of sarasota to Venice on New years day in 2-5mph. Both were excellent. Aloha from Sarasota. Michael P.S.(forgive me stating the obvious, but hey its new eh?) Mine is very squirrly right after launching ,before the ballast is full. Make sure you have it full and secure the drain valve.
Its tender but a great boat within its limits. Weve had our 2000 H240 since July and have enjoyed it very much. Hauled it all over the place trying to escape our extended red tide in Sarasota last year. The trade off is that being a WB trailer boat you will have to reef the main in anything over 14-15mph wind speed. It does heel eaisily but once it settles in at about 20 degrees it firms up pretty well. If you need confidence, stow the gear real well and rail it over. It will only go so far and then in protest simply round up into the wind. Might not try this with a wife or uninitiated crew
Is Sorrentto Fla Near Lake Harris in mid Fla? We are heading up on April 1st for a local race that is hosted by a group I bumped into at http://www.cfyc.com/ They seem like a small, casual group and have a nice lake & ramps too. Did 25mi up the coast last Friday in 15mph wind with following seas (wahoo), compared to the shot below of sarasota to Venice on New years day in 2-5mph. Both were excellent. Aloha from Sarasota. Michael P.S.(forgive me stating the obvious, but hey its new eh?) Mine is very squirrly right after launching ,before the ballast is full. Make sure you have it full and secure the drain valve.Good Advice
When I was in the boat business I had 240 hull #8 as a demo boat. Dave Condon had hull #1 and we learned to sail the 240 with him at the '97 Hunter Rendesvous in Solomons, MD. He found it went the fastest at about a 10* heel max but really performs best when sailed flat. On a lake you should not be affected by wave action at those wind speeds as you would be on a much more open body of water like the Chesapeake Bay. Drew and Soling42 are both correct in their reefing advice. Even my H34's main needs to be reefed when the wind gets above 12 to 15 knots, so use common sense. The 240's virtue is that it will round up when overpowered. And don't sail without the ballast tank full. The water's weight provides the righting moment needed to avoid a full knock-down. S/V Intrepid H34 #113
When I was in the boat business I had 240 hull #8 as a demo boat. Dave Condon had hull #1 and we learned to sail the 240 with him at the '97 Hunter Rendesvous in Solomons, MD. He found it went the fastest at about a 10* heel max but really performs best when sailed flat. On a lake you should not be affected by wave action at those wind speeds as you would be on a much more open body of water like the Chesapeake Bay. Drew and Soling42 are both correct in their reefing advice. Even my H34's main needs to be reefed when the wind gets above 12 to 15 knots, so use common sense. The 240's virtue is that it will round up when overpowered. And don't sail without the ballast tank full. The water's weight provides the righting moment needed to avoid a full knock-down. S/V Intrepid H34 #113
Michael, Can you drop me an email and give me a bit more info on the boat racing in April at Lake Harris? I live 10 miles from that lake and looking to house my boat at a marina. Also, would like to pick you brain regarding the Sarasota Bay and cruising the coast, that is what we would like to do. Thanks for all the feedback on the 240. My email address sailboat@djwoodyard.com. Doug
Small asymetrical
Michael, a SMALL asymetrical would probably be safe to fly dead down wind, but things will get pretty scary with a wind shift. I don't know of anyone who's tried it. Remember, the waterballast weight is at the waterline, not down lower as in a fin or a wing keel like on the older 23 had. You would be better sticking with the high roach main and rigging a preventer for down wind. With its hull shape it sails best as flat as you can keep it.
Michael, a SMALL asymetrical would probably be safe to fly dead down wind, but things will get pretty scary with a wind shift. I don't know of anyone who's tried it. Remember, the waterballast weight is at the waterline, not down lower as in a fin or a wing keel like on the older 23 had. You would be better sticking with the high roach main and rigging a preventer for down wind. With its hull shape it sails best as flat as you can keep it.
Don't own one but the akite has nothing to do with being tender. Akites are for beam and broad reaching (not DDW). When reaching down wind, dumping all the ballast you can will give you best speed. Don't forget that at 15kts true, the apparent wind(which your sails see) will be more like 8 or 9 headed down wind. Ballast is only needed on a beat to keep the boat on its lines. No such problem going down.
DO NOT TRY AND DUMP BALLAST...
...in these boats at anytime. They were not designed for getting rid of it underway. They were not designed to be on the water without ballast unlike a Mac. In fact, you would be unstable with a partial tank (shifting ballast). Sailing without ballast would probably put you on your side or maybe worse. The boat may turtle as without lower ballast upside down could be it's most stable attitude. Yeah, boats sail flat downwind BUT jybes, being over canvased in a gust and many other factors could cause a broach which would capsize without the ballast. These boats are tender with a lot of windage as mentioned but think of them as punching bags with sand on the bottom, they will pop up. Just keep the companion-way boards in if it gets hairy and reef the sails early. They also tend to have weather helm which gets worse with heeling and wind so they will tend to point up. It's better to release the mainsheet in a gust then to point up as you will increase heel temporarily. alan
...in these boats at anytime. They were not designed for getting rid of it underway. They were not designed to be on the water without ballast unlike a Mac. In fact, you would be unstable with a partial tank (shifting ballast). Sailing without ballast would probably put you on your side or maybe worse. The boat may turtle as without lower ballast upside down could be it's most stable attitude. Yeah, boats sail flat downwind BUT jybes, being over canvased in a gust and many other factors could cause a broach which would capsize without the ballast. These boats are tender with a lot of windage as mentioned but think of them as punching bags with sand on the bottom, they will pop up. Just keep the companion-way boards in if it gets hairy and reef the sails early. They also tend to have weather helm which gets worse with heeling and wind so they will tend to point up. It's better to release the mainsheet in a gust then to point up as you will increase heel temporarily. alan
And top it off...
When my 240 was delivered, I was taught, to good effect so far, to top off the ballast tank with a hose, through the air hole underneath the cabin step. I have yet to get knocked over.
When my 240 was delivered, I was taught, to good effect so far, to top off the ballast tank with a hose, through the air hole underneath the cabin step. I have yet to get knocked over.
Gear weight
Drew, evidently you don't have your 240 loaded down with all sorts of gear. We found that when the boat was loaded heavily and you opened the ballast valve, you better be standing by it as it tops off. If the boat is even just a little below its lines, the garden hose won't be necessary! S/V Intrepid H34 #113
Drew, evidently you don't have your 240 loaded down with all sorts of gear. We found that when the boat was loaded heavily and you opened the ballast valve, you better be standing by it as it tops off. If the boat is even just a little below its lines, the garden hose won't be necessary! S/V Intrepid H34 #113
Flyin' the asym
The boat's tender but it also has more potential than people give it credit for. Went and took the plunge and got a Nice full asym cruising sail (24'x22'x15') and couldn't be happier. It sails very well, adds significant speed in lighter broad reaches and looks beautiful. No, I wouldn't expect to hoist it in a blow but thats not what its for. Dan was right in saying the boat sails fastest when sailed flat. So don't be discouraged while you get used to how the boat handles your input and when to grab for more. The boat sails right up to maximum hull speed very well. Never had an issue with the ballast not being topped off when I close the valve. And unless you're wearing a mask and snorkel don't ever open that valve until it's ready to go on the trailer. Imagine a lead keel falling off a boat under sail....Not a pretty image, eh? Occaisionally if I'm trying to squeeze past somebody on a downwind run I have been known to raise the dagger board as long as the situation is managable and nobody is jumping around. Just don't use that against me if we're ever side by side Speaking from direct experience, rig the sails (a spinnaker too) and go sailing alot, it's a great boat and your confidence will only grow. Aloha, Michael
The boat's tender but it also has more potential than people give it credit for. Went and took the plunge and got a Nice full asym cruising sail (24'x22'x15') and couldn't be happier. It sails very well, adds significant speed in lighter broad reaches and looks beautiful. No, I wouldn't expect to hoist it in a blow but thats not what its for. Dan was right in saying the boat sails fastest when sailed flat. So don't be discouraged while you get used to how the boat handles your input and when to grab for more. The boat sails right up to maximum hull speed very well. Never had an issue with the ballast not being topped off when I close the valve. And unless you're wearing a mask and snorkel don't ever open that valve until it's ready to go on the trailer. Imagine a lead keel falling off a boat under sail....Not a pretty image, eh? Occaisionally if I'm trying to squeeze past somebody on a downwind run I have been known to raise the dagger board as long as the situation is managable and nobody is jumping around. Just don't use that against me if we're ever side by side
Speaking from direct experience, rig the sails (a spinnaker too) and go sailing alot, it's a great boat and your confidence will only grow. Aloha, Michael
Like Michael said...and another question
I have a H23.5, which has a few hundred pounds less ballast and slightly larger sail area, and presumably a bit more tender. Early on I was talking to another H23.5 owner about tenderness and he asked if I ever _tried_ to tip it over. Of course I had not. But as Michael suggests, I think it's a good idea, just like pilots practice slow flight, spins and stalls. You want to know what it feels like so you can avoid it, but also so you know how to deal with it when it happens. In 10+ knots of wind, I sail closehauled and keep hardening up on the main (uncleated for quick release). Harder and harder on the mainsheet and tiller, and it leans more and more. Somewhere beyond 35 degrees of heel, as the rudder has come out of the water some and is certainly away from the vertical, you'll feel the rudder pressure diminish as if it broke or you became airborne. I usually let go of the mainsheet at this point (it just takes a few inches it seems and the boat falls level again). If you hang on it will round up as the rudder can no longer counter-act the weather helm. Of course, this is not the same as being hit by a sudden gust of wind, but I practice this now and then and I'm much more comfortable. Heeling way over when close-hauled doesn't bother me at all now, since I know that either a small easing of the mainsheet or tiller adjustment levels me out again (or the boat will round up). Where I'm not so comfortable is on a beam-ish reach with the boom and sail already on the spreader and shrouds. You can't release the mainsheet in this case, and there's nothing to do but head up. I suppose I avoid this situation altogether by reefing or just pointing to a different corner of the lake. Does anybody have any descriptions of this? Does the boat round up from this position? Does the boom hit the water? Is this called a broach? I haven't been anywhere near this situation and the uncertainty bothers me. ...RickM...
I have a H23.5, which has a few hundred pounds less ballast and slightly larger sail area, and presumably a bit more tender. Early on I was talking to another H23.5 owner about tenderness and he asked if I ever _tried_ to tip it over. Of course I had not. But as Michael suggests, I think it's a good idea, just like pilots practice slow flight, spins and stalls. You want to know what it feels like so you can avoid it, but also so you know how to deal with it when it happens. In 10+ knots of wind, I sail closehauled and keep hardening up on the main (uncleated for quick release). Harder and harder on the mainsheet and tiller, and it leans more and more. Somewhere beyond 35 degrees of heel, as the rudder has come out of the water some and is certainly away from the vertical, you'll feel the rudder pressure diminish as if it broke or you became airborne. I usually let go of the mainsheet at this point (it just takes a few inches it seems and the boat falls level again). If you hang on it will round up as the rudder can no longer counter-act the weather helm. Of course, this is not the same as being hit by a sudden gust of wind, but I practice this now and then and I'm much more comfortable. Heeling way over when close-hauled doesn't bother me at all now, since I know that either a small easing of the mainsheet or tiller adjustment levels me out again (or the boat will round up). Where I'm not so comfortable is on a beam-ish reach with the boom and sail already on the spreader and shrouds. You can't release the mainsheet in this case, and there's nothing to do but head up. I suppose I avoid this situation altogether by reefing or just pointing to a different corner of the lake. Does anybody have any descriptions of this? Does the boat round up from this position? Does the boom hit the water? Is this called a broach? I haven't been anywhere near this situation and the uncertainty bothers me. ...RickM...
Degrees of heel
Michael, most bigger keel boats are designed to sail best at a certain degree of heel, generally in the 12 to 18 degree range, varying from boat to boat. With them you have to experiment to find that angle that maximizes the waterline length and takes advantage of the hydrodynamic lift the keel is creating. With the waterballast boats, their center-boards do not have as much lift effect and their center of gravity is much closer to the water line than with keel ballasted boats, providing less lever arm to offset wind pressure. Hence, they sail and perform better when flatter. Racing tip: going down wind, raise the center-board up about 90%, leaving enough down to keep it tracking straight(won't work with more than 10* off the wind--you'll need the lateral resistance to track). I used to race against a centerboard Errickson that had a lifting rudder assembly too, which he would raise racing straight downhill so as to minimize wetted surfaces, thus drag. He could sneek past on the lightest of air with that trick. The pivoting rudder of the H240 could possibly do the same with a little practice. You only need a little bit of blade in the water for minor course correction. If nothing else it will teach you to sail down wind by trimming to steer. Enjoy the warmth--it's cold up here!!! S/V Intrepid
Michael, most bigger keel boats are designed to sail best at a certain degree of heel, generally in the 12 to 18 degree range, varying from boat to boat. With them you have to experiment to find that angle that maximizes the waterline length and takes advantage of the hydrodynamic lift the keel is creating. With the waterballast boats, their center-boards do not have as much lift effect and their center of gravity is much closer to the water line than with keel ballasted boats, providing less lever arm to offset wind pressure. Hence, they sail and perform better when flatter. Racing tip: going down wind, raise the center-board up about 90%, leaving enough down to keep it tracking straight(won't work with more than 10* off the wind--you'll need the lateral resistance to track). I used to race against a centerboard Errickson that had a lifting rudder assembly too, which he would raise racing straight downhill so as to minimize wetted surfaces, thus drag. He could sneek past on the lightest of air with that trick. The pivoting rudder of the H240 could possibly do the same with a little practice. You only need a little bit of blade in the water for minor course correction. If nothing else it will teach you to sail down wind by trimming to steer. Enjoy the warmth--it's cold up here!!! S/V Intrepid
Bay Country
Michael, I'd be glad to provide you with any info you want on the North East Md area--where to stay, places to eat, sights to see, etc. I'm in North East almost every weekend from April to November, and many others while the boat is on the hard. There's lots to do within an hour's drive! I'll get in touch. Your 240 looks well set up for the Gulf coast. With its shallow water capability it should be a great weekender to hop from harbor to harbor with a good sailing day in between. A bimini is a must up here on the Bay in the summer too, and the Honda will give you the security and reliablity you need to run from thunderboomers anywhere!
Michael, I'd be glad to provide you with any info you want on the North East Md area--where to stay, places to eat, sights to see, etc. I'm in North East almost every weekend from April to November, and many others while the boat is on the hard. There's lots to do within an hour's drive! I'll get in touch. Your 240 looks well set up for the Gulf coast. With its shallow water capability it should be a great weekender to hop from harbor to harbor with a good sailing day in between. A bimini is a must up here on the Bay in the summer too, and the Honda will give you the security and reliablity you need to run from thunderboomers anywhere!
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