Telltales - Part 2

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May 17, 2004
2,111
Other Catalina 30 Tucson, AZ
Ok, we know that the ideal is to have all the telltales streaming but it is important to understand the reason for that. It has to do with the lift/drag ratio or curve. We are not going to go into the scientific aspect of those termsbecause it is beyond me anyway. It is obvious that lift is good and it is what you need to power the boat and drag is bad and must be mimimized. Incidently, lift comes from not only your sails but from the keel and also the rudder. So we know that the ideal situation we are looking for is when the wind is hitting the leading edge of the sails and both the windward and leeward telltales on the jib are streaming as are the ones on the main. There is one problem with this. When you have that scenario - both streaming - you are at the highest point of the lift/drag curve. Lift is at it highest but so is drag. So, to squeeze out more lift you should do the following. Push your adjustments a little more until you can get the windward telltale to "flip". The flip rate in medium wind is about once every 3 seconds. In winds above 15 knots, it would be once every 2 seconds. Now, if the windward telltale flips more often than that you are sailing to high and are pinching. You are sailing closer to your destination but are actually sailing slower and if you over pinch you'll really slow down. If the windward telltales NEVER flig you are sailing too low or footing. Your sailing faster but you are sailing a longer distance to your destination. Obviously, the optimum is somewhere between pinching and footing. The only way you can find that angle for your boat is to experiment and you'll see how small it actually is. The following is a balanacing act. In flat water or to cross another boat (say a large cargo vessel bearing down on you!) you should overtrim the jib slightly and get that windward telltale flipping. You want as much lift as you can get. More lift is not necessarily more power. I don't know why that is but that is what the experts who know this stuff say. If your trying to POWER through choppy seas you should ease the jib slightly and have both telltales streaming. You have to be careful here because if you foot too much (sail lower)the windward telltale will droop and you'll lose power. As you can see, a good sailor has to pay attention to his telltales and understand what they are trying to tell him. The needed adjustments can vary by a very small amount. How important is the leeward telltale? There is a fine line between a stalled sail and a luffing sail. You do not want your sail to stall and your leeward telltale is the stall indicator. If that telltale stops streaming you have to head up or sail closer to the wind. So the instant you see a reaction in the leeward telltale you should react to it. A luffing sail is easy to see but a stalled sail is not and that is why the leeward telltale is so important. The stall can be corrected by as little as a 5 to 10 dgree change of heading or angle of attack. If the windward telltale starts to really flutter all over the place it is indicating to you that you are sailing too close to the wind and are about to luff the sail, which you don't want to do unless it is your intention to tack the boat. Here's an easy tip for your jib trimmer. When the OUTSIDE telltales flips - ease the jib sheet OUT. When the INSIDE Ttelltales flip - trim the sheet IN. It is difficult to understand this stuff by just reading. You have to see it in action. So the next time your on the water devote some specific time to just reading your telltales. Adjust the controls on the main and jib and notice the reaction of your telltales. Next session will involve the 5 telltale indicator modes - full speed, acceleration, pointing, pinching and footing. I'll bet a lot of you had no idea your telltales could give you that much info.
 
Feb 21, 2005
34
Catalina 22 Cedar Creek Lake, Tool, TX
As a Newbie

I would like to say thank you. I have imersed myself in as much data as I can, but you put it in plain English and understandable for the beginner. I have oreder your trim charts to keep in the cockpit. I am excited about my next trip out and experimenting with trimming my sails. Sounds hookey, but I am juiced about this sport.
 
May 17, 2004
2,111
Other Catalina 30 Tucson, AZ
Robert from Texas: Thank you for the nice comments. Sometimes I think I'm talking to myself on this forum so I'm glad to hear you are getting something from the information. Sailing is a great sport, which has given me more than I can ever give it. At a couple of tough times in my life (job loss)it saved my sanity. I'd go to the boat with my dog and out we'd go and I'd come back to the dock with a different perspective and a plan on how to attack the problem. Sometimes sailing can be a challange because it seems so confusing with all the sail trim controls etc but they are so simple to master. Unfortuately, mates make it harder than it is. When the light finally goes on and they look back at their experience they wonder why they made it so hard. The Sail TRrim Chart tells you WHAT to do. My book, The Sail trim Users Guide tells you WHY you are making a particular sail trim adjustment. The WHY of sailing is EVERYTHING.
 
T

Ted

Mainsail telltales

Suppose the headsail is trimmed correctly for a beat, how do the telltales in the middle of the main sail come into play? (Not the telltales on the leech) Thanks Ted
 
F

Franklin

Furling Mainsail telltales?

I don't have any on my mainsheet. What I've been doing is perfecting the genoa and then trying to get the main to copy the genoa. Seems to work well, but I would like to have telltales on my main, but I'm wondering how it will affect the furling function and also know that the luff ones will not do me any good if I don't have the main all the way out (furling version of a reef).
 
J

Jim

Telltales

Have been reading about the airflow over sails in some detail and slight confusion. As you explain the timing of the flip of thewindward telltales you explain perfectly the relationship between the layer of air in contact with the sail itself and the slight turbulance between it and the laminer flow of air around the sail. Thanks much for the visual tool. Makes my understanding somewhat more sound. Regards, Jim
 
May 17, 2004
2,111
Other Catalina 30 Tucson, AZ
Ted (Long Island): I wish I was an areodynamicist because he could probably explain this better than I can. It is going to take a couple of paragraphs. First of all, I don't know why these pieces of yarn we attach to our sails are called telltales because they are really "steering indicators" and "adjustment indicators" because when they go haywire you, as the skipper, have to do one or the other -steer or call for a sail trim adjustment. I usually take the job of mainsheet/traveler trimmer. Mainly because I know how much work the jib is!! In the other discusssion sections, I've mentioned that I have telltales attached to the shrouds plus the ones you are refering to in the middle of the mainsail. In your example, asssume we just tacked the boat and the jib trimmer on a masthead rig boat is working on getting his sail perfectly set for a closehauled situation. The jib is the first sail set and I'm pretty much set up for this point of sail with the mainsail because I know the position the sail was on during the previous tack. While the jib trimmer is doing his thing, I'm watching the telltales on the shrouds plus the ones in the middle of the mainsail. What I'm looking for is if the boat is sailing "in the groove" and that is what the shroud and middle telltales are telling me. So next my attention goes to the top telltail. Hopefully, if we are in the groove, they will be flowing. If not, I have to most likely make a twist adjustment. So that is one scenario. Here's another. Let's assume we are sailing along closehauled and the mainsail telltales start to act funny and curl around the sail.The following happens in milli seconds. My attention first goes to the shroud and middle telltails. What I'm looking for is has the the skipper fallen asleep and drifted off course or has the wind changed. Next, I glance at the jib trimmer and the jib telltales and then wait to see what he is going to do. If we are out of the groove then a simple course change will correct the situation. If not, a sail trim adjustment is necessary, which I then make after the jib trimmer makes his. Hope I have not confused anyone. There are probably a number of ways to do this but the method I outlined works best for me. The beauty of all this is after you do it a couple of time you can come up with a method that works best for you.
 
May 17, 2004
2,111
Other Catalina 30 Tucson, AZ
Franklin from Texas: Yup, your right, you want the jib to be a mirror image of the jib. The problem is that there might be a minute difference between the two that you can not see but the telltales will detect the difference. So slap those little beauties on your mainsail for when the the sail is all the way out. Additionally, your also right, that once you start furling the mainsail or jib, at least for me, all sail trim goes out the window. If your anything like me, I could care less what the sail looks like - all I want is to get this bugger back to the dock in one piece!! The telltales will not affect the physical furling funtion of the sail itself.
 
May 10, 2004
207
Beneteau 36 CC Sidney, BC, Canada
THanks don

Really enjoy your lessons Don. Is your sail trim guide and book available outside US? What would they cost me in USD with shipping?
 
B

Bruce Cowin

Sail Trim

Don, I'm happy to see that your forum is back on this site. I like the way you are able to break this stuff all down into something I can understand and use each time I sail. Thank you! Do the same sail trim guidelines and telltail behaviors apply for a fractional rig as they do for a masthead rig? (I have a fractional rig) Thanks, Bruce
 
Jun 2, 2004
649
Hunter 23.5 Calgary, Canada
Shroud telltails

Don - I just want to be clear about the shroud telltails. I have them on my boat, but the only thing I get out of them is a bit of neck relief by sometimes not looking at the mast head Windex. In other words, I'm just seeing the relative wind angle. Are you reading ore than this out of the shroud telltails? You say they help you see if you're "in the groove", but I'm not clear as to what if anything you're actually looking for in the shroud telltails. I do notice that often the two shroud telltails are pointing in different directions due to the disturbance caused by the sails themselves. The windward one generally more closely matches the masthead windex, not counting the (theoretical) fact that the higher windspeed aloft gives a relative wind direction slightly aft of what hits at deck level. This is due to the addition of the true wind and forward boat motion vectors. Come to think about it, I should actually look to see if I can see this difference some day.
 
May 17, 2004
2,111
Other Catalina 30 Tucson, AZ
Rick: This Sunday I'm sailing on a Hunter41 and I'll have to check out the aspect of the leeward shroud telltale. I thnk it will flow right down the slot created between the jib and the main but I can't stake my life on it. When I'm trimming the main I do use all the data I get from the shroud, middle ones and the leech in trying to determine what adjustment to make and how much I want to crank on the controls. In order of telltale importance, the shroud telltales are the least important. My wife would tell you I'm too anal about this stuff but I love looking at all the indicators and fooling with them. She tells me to relax - I am and that's how I relax!!
 
May 17, 2004
2,111
Other Catalina 30 Tucson, AZ
Bruce Cowin; Yup, the principles apply whether you have a fractional or masthead rig. The wind does not know what type of rig it is hitting. With a fractional rig, you have to be more attentive to the mainsail. The masthead rig owner must be more attentive to the jib. NOTE: I received an order today from Sailboatowners.com for a Bruce Cowan that lives in St Charles, Mo - if that is you, your Sail Trim Users Guide is in the mail today. If not, someone with your name is getting one!!
 
B

Bruce Cowin

Following up

Don, Is it possible that the sail trim book has been lost in the mail? I haven't received it yet. Is there any way you could follow up on it? Thanks, Bruce
 
May 17, 2004
2,111
Other Catalina 30 Tucson, AZ
Following Up

Bruce: I think you book was sent about 4/8 to 4/10 and it goes media mail, which takes about 8 to 10 days. I've shipped over 1000 book and over 8000 charts all over the world and only 2 have been lost by the post office. Some take a while to get there. I had them take over 3 to 4 weeks, but they all eventually arrive. It all depends how your post office treat media mail. Some treat is less than parcel post and they deliver when they feel like it.
 
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