Tell Tale Question

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Sep 21, 2005
297
Catalina 22 Henderson Bay, NY
Some years ago I put tell tales on the leech of our main. After sailing with them, I do not know how anyone can sail without them. After reading many post about tells in the middle of the main, I also put them on. My question is what am I really looking for in these. They seem to be always streaming back with the leech tells. Was this overkill or will they always do this if the leech is correct? I hope my question is clear. Thanks

Dale
 

RichH

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Feb 14, 2005
4,773
Tayana 37 cutter; I20/M20 SCOWS Worton Creek, MD
This may be a 'bit much' but the mid cord tales should be 'just behind' where the leech of the jib/genoa overlaps the main
.... OR looking at it another way, if you were standing a distance away to the side of the boat looking at main and jib up, if you took a pencil and traced the curve of the genoa's leech against the mainsail ..... that line would be where you put the 'front end' of the mainsail tales.

No need to put them any further forward on the main than that because the flow in 'slot' is sooooooo complex that tales in the 'slot' arent going to tell you much. Of course if you dont have an overlapping jib/Genoa then the midcord tale can go 'much' forward but usually no further forward than 'mid-cord' or the position that the maximum draft occurs .... in a non-overlapping configuration.

The midcord tales will tell you how much to adjust the outhaul (when beating to beam reaching).... after all the other tales are set and streaming correctly, slowly ease, etc. the outhaul until the lee-side mid cord tales 'just begin to twirl' (a flow 'separation' beginning because there is too much curve or draft) , then pull in a bit until it lays flat and streaming aft. Doing this will set the CORRECT ***amount of draft for the present wind and wave conditions***. But verify that setting to 'maximum draft for the 'moment/conditions'' by checking the 'before' and 'after' values on the SPEEDO.
:)
 

Joe

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Jun 1, 2004
8,304
Catalina 27 Mission Bay, San Diego
You question is very clear, Dale.. and like you I've rarely noticed my mid chord telltale NOT flowing. I use other indicators to set my outhaul.. but I'll put RichH's recommendations on my "awareness" list and see if there's any improvement.

My rule is that if the lower 2 leech tales are flowing, and the top is flicking, I'm good.. so no matter what happens further forward the leech is most important. I use the speedo to help me with outhaul settings.... looking for more power in waves and less in flat water.
 
Sep 21, 2005
297
Catalina 22 Henderson Bay, NY
Thanks. Rich, as always your answers are like going back to school. Joe,I have been doing the same thing as you have geen doing. The "slot" is a very interesting place, and no simple answer can begin to descibe what goes on there. This forum is very helpful and all who respond are true sailors. By that I mean they are always trying to learn more than they now know. I have sailed off and on for over 40 years, and at times I feel like a new sailor, and at others I feel I could sail across the ocean. It is a great sport. Thanks again.

Dale
 
May 11, 2004
273
RAPTOR Hotfoot 20 Ghost Lake
I don't mean to hijack the thread but I have a question for RichH.
The mid chord telltales on my main are on the top half of the sail, 1/4 and 1/2 way down, where the outhaul will have no effect. Are these trimmed the same way only using mast bend instead of the outhaul?
 

RichH

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Feb 14, 2005
4,773
Tayana 37 cutter; I20/M20 SCOWS Worton Creek, MD
Kip ---
You are correct. The outhaul sets the draft mostly in the bottom panels. The 'top' Luff and leech tales are used to set/affect the twist of the sail; and yes, mast bend as well as traveller position sets the twist, with traveller position being the more important of the the two as regards 'twist'.

If your midcord lee tales are NOT streaming but drooping down it usually means one of two things: either the amount of draft is too much (outhaul too loose creating an 'overdrafted' sail.... and the flow is 'separating' away or 'detaching' at the area of the tale) and/or the position of maximum draft is 'too far forward' (halyard too tight) for the conditions; OR the position of the tale is too far forward and IN the slot where the 'visible by tell tales' flow is actually being 'cancelled out' .... a complicated aerodynamic process where the 'mathematical' airflow is actually 'circulating around' the sails and the flow - going forward - on the windward side of the genoa is canceling the flow going aft over the main's lee side. .... thats why the air *IN* the 'slot' always seems to be much less or 'more slowed' than the apparent wind.

Note/clarifications: the above reference to mast bend is for masts that are specifically designed for 'bending' to affect radical sail shaping/flattening and doesnt mean 'mast pre-bend' which changes the primarily 'stiffness' aspects of a mast. 'Bendy' masts are usually found on fractional rigged boats. An example of a boat with 'bendy' mast is below ....
 

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May 17, 2004
2,111
Other Catalina 30 Tucson, AZ
Dale: Here's how I use the center two mainsail telltales.

I love telltales. I love watching them. I can see the wind streaming past them as if I was in a wind tunnel and the smoke was going by them. Actually, they talk to me!!

On a masthead rig the engine is the jib. To me the most important jib telltales are the center ones so I want those to be streaming aft. The jib is the first sail I deal with. Once that sail is set up I then concentrate on the mainsail. The most important mainsail telltale is the top one as that is your twist indicator. Once I get that telltale set the way I want it I then concentrate on getting the mainsail to MIRROR the jib and the center two telltales help me do that. Some or many folks may have a different method but a mate has to use what works for him as that is what 'floats your boat" - so to speak. Since I'm just a common seaman and a country boy I have to keep it as simple as possable so I can understand what I'm doing.

Looking up at the top of the mainsail gives me a crook in my neck so my sail trim sequence is I check the shroud telltales to see if I'm still in the grove. If I'm in the grove chances are I'm OK, but you never know. Next I check the middle jib telltales. If they are flying OK I next galnce at the middle two mainsail telltales. If they are flying OK I'm in but being a curious soul I will take a glance at the top mainsail telltale just to be sure. I can go through this check sequence three times as fast as it took me to write this paragraph.

The important thing to remember is probably half the sailors worldwide don't even have telltales on their boat. Of the 50% that do have them probably 50% don't use them and don't know how to read them. Telltales are the prime indicators of what sail trim adjustments need to be made to the main and jib. Your telltales are talking to you all the time.

To answer your question, the bottom line is you read the middle mainsail telltales (if a mate has them) the same way you read your jib telltales.
 
Sep 21, 2005
297
Catalina 22 Henderson Bay, NY
Thanks to everyone. I have one further question. Our boat is a C-22, so our main is not very large. I have one set ( one one each side of the main) of tales in the middle of the sail, about one third up from the foot. Is this all I need and are they in the right place? Don, I agree with you. I see all sizes of boats out on the lake with out tell tales. I don't know how they can sail the boat that way.

Dale

Dale
 
May 17, 2004
2,111
Other Catalina 30 Tucson, AZ
Dale: In order of mainsail telltale placement, the most important locations are along the leech of the sail. The aft center location is secondary in importance. If placement is a problem just skip the center ones.

Split the mainsail leeech in half and put the first one there. Then split the top portion in half and put one there and then do the same for the bottom portion. The top one is the most important - it's your twist indicator - and the middle is next in importance. They are all important and when each is streaming you're pretty close to 100% effeciency.

Let's say you've got all you're jib telltales streaming on a masthead rig. To impress your friends and squeeze just a little more out of you jib, come up every so slowly and slightly until the inside telltale FLIPS every couple of seconds. Now you've arrived and she is giving everything she's got to give.

I hate going on boats without telltales. In fact, just in case I carry a roll of green plastic tomato tape and install some. I can adjust sails without telltales but not to 100% efficiency and 75% of the sailors worldwide can't either.
 
Oct 2, 2008
3,811
Pearson/ 530 Strafford, NH
The midcord tales will tell you how much to adjust the outhaul (when beating to beam reaching).... after all the other tales are set and streaming correctly, slowly ease, etc. the outhaul until the lee-side mid cord tales 'just begin to twirl' (a flow 'separation' beginning because there is too much curve or draft) , then pull in a bit until it lays flat and streaming aft. Doing this will set the CORRECT ***amount of draft for the present wind and wave conditions***. But verify that setting to 'maximum draft for the 'moment/conditions'' by checking the 'before' and 'after' values on the SPEEDO.
:)
Man o man o man,
Just when my wife was tolerating my "playing with the sail" you give me another line to adjust. Our outhaul doesn't appear to be effective in sliding along the boom and I would be near the mast making these adjustments. Are we talking inches or fractions when setting the outhaul? I have a 135 genny so mid-sail tales would be at the edge of the genny half-way up? Pulling the outhaul out is a chore, any thoughts on a way to improve Catalina's in-boom system?
All U Get
 
May 17, 2004
2,111
Other Catalina 30 Tucson, AZ
All U Get: Here's my suggestion regarding the internal outhaul system on your 1981 C30, which I also owned - GET RID OF IT - and here's why. First, it is a poorly designed system. The problem is with the internal swivel block, which is is the culprit with the system. It twists and then binds no mattter how many times you fix it. The result is most older C30's have the outhaul stuck in some position which makes it like the broken clock. The setting is right for some point of sail and wind condition and wrong for all other. The outhaul is the primary sail trim control for draft depth. Draft depth is your accelerator and you don't have one at this time.

That is just the start of the problem. Next time you're at your boat crank on the outhaul and watch what happens to the slug in the track. When you crank on the outhaul, because of the pulling motion of the line, which is downward, the slug digs into the boom creating unwanted friction. Eliminating the slug is not the answer. Without the slug the clew will dig in

The solution is to install a system that results in a horizontal pulling motion. How does one do that? Simple, I installed two small Harken triple blocks, which are expensive little buggers, but they works. Drop me a note at yankee3223@juno.com and I'll give you the web site where you can see what I did.

My system is not the best fix. A friend of mine, Max Munger (C30 National officier) designed a better one. He installed a small track on the boom and had Garhauer build a small car to ride on the track. In addition you have to have the foot of the sail cut to allow the system to work. My system is the poor man's approach!! Max is richer than me!!

Another solution is a loose footed main. The problem with that system is most sailors induce too much draft depth (belly) into the sail, which is counter productive.

As far as telltales on the jib - your set in the middle of the sail are fine but you need another set at the top portion for twist. If you want to skip a set then do so with the bottom set.
 

RichH

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Feb 14, 2005
4,773
Tayana 37 cutter; I20/M20 SCOWS Worton Creek, MD
Sorry forgot to add.

the midcord mainsail tales besides indicating the correct amount of draft, are also extremely useful in determining how 'close' the jib/genoa leech should be to the mainsail.
Pull in the jibsheets until the mainsail leeside midcord tale just begins to droop ... and you've now got that 'slot' distance 99% correct.

If you pull in on the jib sheet 'real' tight and nothing happens to the mainsail midchord lee side tale ..... consider a barber hauler to bring the jib even closer in to the main OR open the traveller a wee bit until it does slightly begin to twirl, etc. ... for real fast speeds when beating.
 

Joe

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Jun 1, 2004
8,304
Catalina 27 Mission Bay, San Diego
Sorry forgot to add.

the midcord mainsail tales besides indicating the correct amount of draft, are also extremely useful in determining how 'close' the jib/genoa leech should be to the mainsail.
Pull in the jibsheets until the mainsail leeside midcord tale just begins to droop ... and you've now got that 'slot' distance 99% correct.

If you pull in on the jib sheet 'real' tight and nothing happens to the mainsail midchord lee side tale ..... consider a barber hauler to bring the jib even closer in to the main OR open the traveller a wee bit until it does slightly begin to twirl, etc. ... for real fast speeds when beating.
Thanks for that Rich, I'm going to employ your suggestions, they make sense. I might try setting a couple more closer to and further back on the same chord line to match up to the blade, lapper and genoa.... I have an inside track and a barberhaul system so that will be fun to experiment with.... I love this kind of stuff... thanks.
 

OldCat

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Jul 26, 2005
728
Catalina , Nacra 5.8, Laser, Hobie Hawk Wonmop, CO
paphman...

I see all sizes of boats out on the lake with out tell tales. I don't know how they can sail the boat that way.
I don't know how they sail that way either - I only get about 75% of this sail trim stuff and generally find it pretty easy to pass 27' boats with my C22 if they don't have tell tales. The good racers, especially those with their fancy laminate sails are another matter...

On the C22, consider a boom downhaul if you don't have one. They are generally rigged at about 4:1, though mine seems to work fine at 3:1. This is much cheaper than a halyard winch, unless you already have one. It is a small sail, so there is not as much friction from head to tack as on a larger boat, not as necessary to have a winch. Though a halyard winch would be nice to have for several reasons...

OC
tich tor ang tesmur
 

zeehag

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Mar 26, 2009
3,198
1976 formosa 41 yankee clipper santa barbara. ca.(not there)
some of us learned without tell tales...looong time ago !!
 

Alan

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Jun 2, 2004
4,174
Hunter 35.5 LI, NY
Moving the boat forward in a breeze is not the full extent of sailing. Almost anyone can hoist a sail and get the boat to move. Making the necessary adjustments for proper performance is not rocket science, but it does take a little input to get it right. Speaking for myself I haven't yet learned to see the wind and how it interacts with the sails. I rely on those little telltales to feed me the info I need to make the adjustments. In my 30 years of sailing I still haven't found a way to make most of the adjustments without them. I'm a sucker for alternate ideas, maybe someone has found another way and I would love to hear about it.
 

zeehag

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Mar 26, 2009
3,198
1976 formosa 41 yankee clipper santa barbara. ca.(not there)
Moving the boat forward in a breeze is not the full extent of sailing. Almost anyone can hoist a sail and get the boat to move. Making the necessary adjustments for proper performance is not rocket science, but it does take a little input to get it right. Speaking for myself I haven't yet learned to see the wind and how it interacts with the sails. I rely on those little telltales to feed me the info I need to make the adjustments. In my 30 years of sailing I still haven't found a way to make most of the adjustments without them. I'm a sucker for alternate ideas, maybe someone has found another way and I would love to hear about it.

i was taught not as a yacht clubbie, but as a tallshipman was taught, from and by a tallshipman--NO telltales--didnt need them to see the wind....
yacht clubs did a lot to sailing that wasnt done before they were accepted as groups of folks with similar ideals and likes.
there are still many who were taught as i was--is not cool to diss us just because we donot find a need for tell tales on the sails.
 

Alan

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Jun 2, 2004
4,174
Hunter 35.5 LI, NY
Please Z, no disrespect intended. I am not able to read the wind because I can't see it. I can only respond to the visual clues that come from telltales. If you have another way of reading the wind, I am more than willing to learn. I even have a telltale on my spinnaker pole to help maintain a 'square to the wind' attitude. Jib lead cars are particularly sensative to location and a few inches makes a hellava difference.
You may have found another way and I wan to learn. Please teach me your secret 'cause I'm always willing to learn.
 
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