Tell me how to improve (pic included)

[Don Guillette]

Sublime: The problem is we're working with a picture and as I mentioned it's better than the written word but not by much. There are only so many sail trim controls for the mainsail and from a twist stand point there are only two --- the boom vang and the mainsheet. If you crank on the boom vang to its max and most of the twist is not eliminated than its the sail and not the trimming. Incidently, you could conduct the twist experiment at the dock.

The great thing about the sail trim forum is the regular contributors don't just throw things out -- they give reasons for their suggestions and that's what different between the forum and "ask all sailors" for example. Sometimes some of the sail trim stuff I read on the other sites reminds me of the conversations I used to have with dock neighbors when I was trying to learn to sail a silly sailboat -- they confused the hell out of me and come to find out more than half the stuff they told me was incorrect and later I learned it wasn't even logical. Joe from San diego, Richh, Stu J would have had a field day talking to some of my dock neighbors. Actually, they'd have gotten a head ache!!

The halyard was mentioned because it looks like you have scollops along the luff of the sail and the only way to eliminate them is by bringing the mainsail to full hoist. You won't break anything by doing that. A cunningham would help as then you'd be pulling the luff from the top and the bottom but that won't solve your twist problem.

 

[Sublime]

Sublime: The problem is we're working with a picture and as I mentioned it's better than the written word but not by much. There are only so many sail trim controls for the mainsail and from a twist stand point there are only two --- the boom vang and the mainsheet. If you crank on the boom vang to its max and most of the twist is not eliminated than its the sail and not the trimming. Incidently, you could conduct the twist experiment at the dock.

No doubt. Make no mistake, I appreciate the advice. I just know some info isn't available to you through pictures, such as, the condition of the sail which I why I mentioned it's got little usage.

I'm a female so perhaps I'm not as strong as some of you other guys. Perhaps a more powerful vang would suit me.
But I will try what I've learned here and see what happens. Now if the weather will settle down a bit so I can go try some things!

 

[Don Guillette]

Sublime: NOTE: OK guys. Now that we know Sublime is a gal we have to be respectfull!!

I don't think you need a stronger vang. The one you have is probably more than suitable. Next time you're at your boat just raise the main at the dock and crank on the boom until it stops. Then grab the end of the boom and pull down, while looking up the leech of the sail. See if the top of the sail closes down and let us know what happens.

As far as woman sailors -- in my many years of dealing with sail trim I've found that gals make the best learning sailors and here's why. Guys usually start their questions this way - "I've been sailing for 20 years but I had this question------? My first thought is that my wife has been golfing for 20 years and has never hit the ball to the same place twice!!! Then the guy goes on to ask me about the topping lift or something!! Gals have nothing to prove and they LISTEN, maybe not all the time, but when they are trying to learn something they don't come with any preconceived notions.

Here's a couple of examples. Years ago I received a call from a gal skipper with an all gal crew. They were beer can racing in Newport Beach and being beaten by the all guy boats. Anyway, after a couple of training sessions, and most importantly assigning crew functions -- how many people can play second base and then the outfield - these gals got very good at their assigned positions. They got so good that they started beating the guys. The first time they came in first you'd have thought they won the America's Cup!!

Another group of gals from Shoreline YC in Long Beach, Ca decided they wanted to participate in the Newport to Ensenada race. We did the same deal and the gals finished second in their division.

When I talk to wives who want to buy my book for their husbands I tell them to read it FIRST and maybe DON'T give it too him. You'll blow his mind with what you know and he doesn't.

 

[Sublime]

Sublime: NOTE: OK guys. Now that we know Sublime is a gal we have to be respectfull!!

I don't think you need a stronger vang. The one you have is probably more than suitable. Next time you're at your boat just raise the main at the dock and crank on the boom until it stops. Then grab the end of the boom and pull down, while looking up the leech of the sail. See if the top of the sail closes down and let us know what happens.

As far as woman sailors -- in my many years of dealing with sail trim I've found that gals make the best learning sailors and here's why. Guys usually start their questions this way - "I've been sailing for 20 years but I had this question------? My first thought is that my wife has been golfing for 20 years and has never hit the ball to the same place twice!!! Then the guy goes on to ask me about the topping lift or something!! Gals have nothing to prove and they LISTEN, maybe not all the time, but when they are trying to learn something they don't come with any preconceived notions.

Here's a couple of examples. Years ago I received a call from a gal skipper with an all gal crew. They were beer can racing in Newport Beach and being beaten by the all guy boats. Anyway, after a couple of training sessions, and most importantly assigning crew functions -- how many people can play second base and then the outfield - these gals got very good at their assigned positions. They got so good that they started beating the guys. The first time they came in first you'd have thought they won the America's Cup!!

Another group of gals from Shoreline YC in Long Beach, Ca decided they wanted to participate in the Newport to Ensenada race. We did the same deal and the gals finished second in their division.

When I talk to wives who want to buy my book for their husbands I tell them to read it FIRST and maybe DON'T give it too him. You'll blow his mind with what you know and he doesn't.

Good story Don!

Note though that I'm not above being called an idiot if I'm being an idiot. I am quite dense, but once I get it, it sticks.

A funny story- I just moved my boat to this new marina and there's an old man two slips down in a pontoon boat who's quite the character.
My hubby and I were putting the name on my boat. He reads the name out loud while smoking his cigar, "Ah...the Miss Muffet." He then asks for an explanation. I was busy so my hubby explained, "That was her dad's pet name for her when she was little." For further explanation, my dad willed me this boat he never named so I thought it would be appropriate.
So this old man nods with approval. "Well that's nice of you to name your boat after your wife. I did the same thing," and he gestures to the name on his boat, the Shirley.
My hubby just laughed. I said nothing but I did tease my hubby about it later. That old man will figure it out when he sees me coming and going, doing maintenance, and singlehanding my boat, lol!

 

[RichH]

Forgot to mention ... if your boat normally carries a 'pre-bent' mast, one that is set-up with a substantial amount of forward 'bow' when the rigging is properly adjusted and your present state of the mast is 'straight', that un-bowed mast condition will induce a GREAT amount of extra deep and unnecessary draft into the mainsail.

Check your B&R rigging adjustment specs to be sure that mast has the correct 'pre-bow'.

 

[Merlin Clark]

Merlinuxo - why are the sailors faces blacked out -- are they undercover sail trim experts operating incognito!?!?!

Haha! That's it Don, sailing incognito!

 

[justsomeguy]

Haha! That's it Don, sailing incognito!

I thought you guys were singing an Al Jolson tune.

 

[shanker]

Simple suggestion but it may apply. Put some wax in your mast track and on your sail lugs. They may be binding and not allowing you to get it up all the way. So to speak. Or give your hubby a purple pill and he'll get it up.

 

[Sublime]

I finally got to go out and sail today. Tell me what you think?

 

[Don Guillette]

Sublime: The big question is what do you think about your sail trim when you took the picture? I already know the answer-- you're happy with the results. The sail looks to be at full hoist. I'm not sure about parts of the back edge as it might be the picture or the leech line is a bit too tight but overall the shape of the sail looks fine.

Now for the $64 question - what did you do to obtain the pictured result? Also, what is your first name? I hate calling you sublime!!!

 

[Sublime]

Sublime: The big question is what do you think about your sail trim when you took the picture? I already know the answer-- you're happy with the results. The sail looks to be at full hoist. I'm not sure about parts of the back edge as it might be the picture or the leech line is a bit too tight but overall the shape of the sail looks fine.

Now for the $64 question - what did you do to obtain the pictured result? Also, what is your first name? I hate calling you sublime!!!

I'm okay with going by Sublime

I wasn't sure how to correct the leech of the sail so I'll fiddle with the leech line. I cranked pretty good on the halyard and pulled the outhaul to the black line on the boom. But I'm not sure if the black line is sort of a "middle ground" for where the outhaul is or the limit. It seemed difficult to get it to that black line though the sail will slide along the boom easily.
I wasn't able to get what was happening near the boom pictured, but there was a "pucker" similar to this sample picture all the way across the sail closer to the boom. I imagine if there was a cunningham, it would do something similar, but I don't have one. I'm not sure if this is normal or how to tell if the sail is getting overstretched by the outhaul.

 

[Sublime]

Oh, and I need to work on the jib some, I think. It's on a roller furler and I don't think I have enough tension on its halyard.
You have to tie the halyard do it then slide it up through the groove. Then I tension things down at the tack. But the material attaching the jib to, what I guess is a bolt rope, so that it will stay in that groove, gets in the way before I get much tension. However, I have difficulty getting the jib much higher than it is despite using some sailkote on it.


I don't know how much halyard tension plays on sail shape on a furler though. I don't have movable jib sheet blocks.

 

[RichH]

Sublime ---
From the pic, the SHAPE of the sail seems to be improved but still has problems. Its only a single pic and it may be the 'camera angle' but you still seem to have MAJOR *shape* problems; you cant adequately TRIM with an ill-shaped sail.

The 'scallops' along the luff and leech are removed (by increased halyard tension?) but.....

1. the leech section at the top of the sail seem 'hooked up to weather' which induces extreme draft ('depth' of the thick red line).
Three possibilities cause this.
A. the mast is 'too straight' with not enough mast pre-bend (did you set the mast bend according to the B&R instructions?) OR
B. the mainsheet is probably waaaaay too tight.
Since your boat is a fractional rig, Id suspect its the lack of adequate 'prebend'
C. Still not enough mainsail halyard tension !!!!! (if the mast has adequate 'prebend').
The shape of the leech section should be relatively flat (blue dashed line) and 'relaxed' not deeply 'curved up towards the weather side' ... follow the panel seem lines in the pic (very and deeply 'curved') to see what Im seeing/suggesting, .... the dashed blue lines are what it looks like with a flat or 'open' leech.
When you 'stretch' one side of a sail, the 'opposite side' relaxes or 'opens'; over-tensioning the luff causes the leech to flatten or 'open'.

2. The location (fore/aft) of draft (green stripe) is seemingly AFT, not at about in the position of 40-50% 'back' from the luff.
A. 'more' halyard tension is suggested to get that point of max draft 'more forward'. With the current shape, I'll betcha you have a LOT of weather helm.
B. Flattening or 'opening' (pointing more towards the leeside) the leech (with/by more mast prebend and/or less mainsheet tension will probably help.

3. Waaaaaay too much draft .... probably from a 'too straight mast'. Consult the instructions on proper set up & 'prebend' of the B&R mast.

Of course these are only my 'interpretations' from a pic .... but If I were racing you, Id 'stretch out' all the tacks because the pic. shows a very slow / too 'full draft' & draft aft, with a 'hooked up leech' sail ... and Id expect your boat to heel over and really SLOW-down when on a long 'beat'. With lots of tacks (tacking duel), youd be able to accelerate out of each tack like a 'scalded cat' (because of the radically 'powered-up' shape) but would never be able to get to 'full speed'.

FWIW for those who 'race' .... you scrutinize the competitors 'faults' in sail shape, and then force/encourage your opponent to sail in a mode that 'maximizes' these faults .... and 'stretch-out' your 'lead'! ;-)
;-)

 

[Sublime]

Sublime ---
From the pic, the SHAPE of the sail seems to be improved but still has problems. Its only a single pic and it may be the 'camera angle' but you still seem to have MAJOR *shape* problems; you cant adequately TRIM with an ill-shaped sail.

The 'scallops' along the luff and leech are removed (by increased halyard tension?) but.....

1. the leech section at the top of the sail seem 'hooked up to weather' which induces extreme draft ('depth' of the thick red line).
Three possibilities cause this.
A. the mast is 'too straight' with not enough mast pre-bend (did you set the mast bend according to the B&R instructions?) OR
B. the mainsheet is probably waaaaay too tight.
Since your boat is a fractional rig, Id suspect its the lack of adequate 'prebend'
C. Still not enough mainsail halyard tension !!!!! (if the mast has adequate 'prebend').
The shape of the leech section should be relatively flat (blue dashed line) and 'relaxed' not deeply 'curved up towards the weather side' ... follow the panel seem lines in the pic (very and deeply 'curved') to see what Im seeing/suggesting, .... the dashed blue lines are what it looks like with a flat or 'open' leech.
When you 'stretch' one side of a sail, the 'opposite side' relaxes or 'opens'; over-tensioning the luff causes the leech to flatten or 'open'.

2. The location (fore/aft) of draft (green stripe) is seemingly AFT, not at about in the position of 40-50% 'back' from the luff.
A. 'more' halyard tension is suggested to get that point of max draft 'more forward'. With the current shape, I'll betcha you have a LOT of weather helm.
B. Flattening or 'opening' (pointing more towards the leeside) the leech (with/by more mast prebend and/or less mainsheet tension will probably help.

3. Waaaaaay too much draft .... probably from a 'too straight mast'. Consult the instructions on proper set up & 'prebend' of the B&R mast.

Of course these are only my 'interpretations' from a pic .... but If I were racing you, Id 'stretch out' all the tacks because the pic. shows a very slow / too 'full draft' & draft aft, with a 'hooked up leech' sail ... and Id expect your boat to heel over and really SLOW-down when on a long 'beat'. With lots of tacks (tacking duel), youd be able to accelerate out of each tack like a 'scalded cat' (because of the radically 'powered-up' shape) but would never be able to get to 'full speed'.

FWIW for those who 'race' .... you scrutinize the competitors 'faults' in sail shape, and then force/encourage your opponent to sail in a mode that 'maximizes' these faults .... and 'stretch-out' your 'lead'! ;-)
;-)

Thank you for your time explaining and illustrations!

As for mainsheet tension, could it be that I had the vang too tight? I pulled down on the boom and tightened the vang that way.

I will look at the adjustments for the rigging. Per the owner's manual, when I hang something from the main halyard near the deck, it should hang 4-6" back from the mast. So I will check that.

 

[RichH]

an over-tight vang can also cause this leech shape AND can cause the position of max draft to go slightly aft; .... but not the amount of excess draft as shown.

 

[Sublime]

an over-tight vang can also cause this leech shape AND can cause the position of max draft to go slightly aft; .... but not the amount of excess draft as shown.

Noted, thanks! Today is a very calm day so I will work with the rigging.

 

[Joe]

regarding your very first picture concernig flutter at the very top.......... did anyone ask you to check the top batten to make sure it was not broken and that it was properly seated in the pocket? If the batten is okay, that's cool... it's just something that crossed my mind that may not have been mentioned.

 

[Sublime]

regarding your very first picture concernig flutter at the very top.......... did anyone ask you to check the top batten to make sure it was not broken and that it was properly seated in the pocket? If the batten is okay, that's cool... it's just something that crossed my mind that may not have been mentioned.

I believe it is okay, but I will double check tomorrow.


Okay, I checked the mast bend. My weight hung within the range of where it is supposed to per the manual. The upper and lower shrouds had the same amount of tension on them but with my info regarding this rig, the uppers should have an additional 100 lbs.
I have a loos gauge so it's not a big deal. So I put another 100lbs on the uppers only.
The first pic is before, with all of the shrouds equal tension. The second is after I increased the tension on the uppers. Not sure if they provide you with any useful info. I plan to go sailing tomorrow so I guess that's the ultimate test.

One question though-the upper shrouds don't go to the very top of the mast. Does that change the amount of prebend I'd be able to put in it? I guesstimate about 5 feet of mast is above the upper shrouds.

 

[RichH]

If you dont have it, Here's some info on tuning a B&R on a 260: http://kobernus.com/hunter260/rigging/rigging.html

If you dont have the instructions of proper pre-bend to match the 'cut' of the luff shape on your MAINSAIL ... here's an article that would apply to your mainsail / mast and how to determine the correct 'prebend' vs. sail leading edge shape. .... When reading that article. in your mind change all the 'wire stuff' as applied to jibs, etc. to the mast prebend shape - a sailmaker will usually 'add' a convex shape to the luff to match a mast profile ... and so that the mainsail will take on its DESIGNED amount of draft, 'subtract' a concave shape to match a jib's luff profile.
The importance is that the mast should be bowed to approximately 'match' the curve that sailmaker cut into the luff; .... a bit more bow to flatten the sail for sailing 'fast' in flat water, less mast bowing for 'powered-up' sailing in waves ----- the amount of prebend/bowing helps control the AMOUNT of draft in the mainsail, especially in the mid to upper sections where the 'outhaul' tension is ineffective. Most sails are not cut 'straight' along their leading edges but rather curved to 'match' the expected sag/bow of the wire/mast.
http://www.ftp.tognews.com/GoogleFiles/Matching Luff Hollow.pdf

The 'prebend' is typical for ALL masts ... it artificially makes the mast 'stiffer', and a good sailmaker includes the EXPECTED prebend when calculating/designing a sail.

I hope this is too confusing, if it is lemme know.

;-)

 

[Sublime]

If you dont have it, Here's some info on tuning a B&R on a 260: http://kobernus.com/hunter260/rigging/rigging.html

Yes, that is the info I've been going off of.

Okay, went for a sail. The winds were incredibly light such as 3 kts and less. Most of the time the windex wouldn't register and the sails just hung. This picture is when I had the sail as full as I could get it today. But hopefully it can show some improvement?
I put more tension on the upper shrouds, loosened the leech line, and just had a little tension on the vang.

I can't tell you how much I appreciate everyone's help. Today marks the second anniversary of my late father's passing. He willed the boat to me which is why, despite the light winds, I went sailing as a celebration of his life. He was a very good sailor and I wish I had been more interested in sailing at the time he was able to teach me.