Take it to the bank

[Ross]

On this thread I am sticking to my

method of using all of your assets to keep you and yours safe. If you have all of the electronic "bells and whistles" use them! But you also have eyes and ears and a brain use those also. If you have crew on board listen to them! if you have a dog that barks at other boats bring it on deck. Don't scorn anything old or new. Don't regret what you don't have, make do with what you do have. I don't think a reefer full of cold beer will help much until the end of the adventure.

 

[Maine Sail]

Sorry Franklin..

Another great quote by Franklin:"If both of these assumptions are correct, then you are saying that your senses are more effective in fog then radar and GPS. Since you are the fog expert, I guess that means that GPS and radar is worthless. Those of us that have these, we should throw them away because they aren't needed because our ears, eyes and noises are our best tools. Just think of all the weigth aloft we will save by throwing them away. Just think of all the battery juice we will save. Tomorrow I'll go around the marina and leave notes on each boat that has a GPS and/or radar, telling them that I will gladly help them uninstall their systems and dispose of it for them for a small fee because a very experienced sailor in Maine has discovered that they are worthless. Since just about every boat here has at least one of these systems, I guess I'll be very busy for a while."Great more assumptions!Need I say more? No! But I will cause I'm having fun.... Sorry guys!Franklin please stop!It's as bad & embarrassing as watching a comedian tell a bad joke on stage in front of a huge audience. The dead silence after your posts uncomfortable!Please, please, please, for your own sake, quit now I'm beginning to feel sorry for you...In case you missed the wording in my very first post on this thread, or if you did not understand it, here it is again. What I said:"While I use GPS/radar a lot these days I do not rely on it 100% for my fog navigation and rely on it as a nice quick "check & balance" for my other plotting skills."In general terms it means I DO use my radar and my GPS, and I should have added my autopilot too but I forgot about it. All it means is that I am NOT 100% dependent on my electronics,no one should be, and if I HAD to I could get by without either GPS or radar. The statement "rely on it as a nice quick "check & balance"" means I am using these tools but not putting 100% of my reliance or dependancy on those tools and those tools only. Seems simple to understand to me! You? My radar and GPS ARE ON 100% of the time when there is fog period end of story. The original question was pertaining to a boat with NO radar and the question was what would you do? Franklin, you turned this into a radar debate because I personally, as in what is important to me, put radar below my plotting skills and senses but above my GPS. Doesn’t this all sound a little foolish considering I prefaced every point I made with “this is what works for me in my home waters”. I don't get your anger directed at me? That is why I did not back down after your attack. Could I have risen above your petty child like attitude? Sure! But I do have valuable experiences to share with others and there were some misunderstandings about what to do in the fog that I wanted to try and help with like binoculars or spot lights or blaring music. I guess I took a wrong turn at stating what has worked for me for 30+ years and it went against what you believe as Franklin’s “Fog Bill of Rights”. I came into this discussion to try and help and you came at me like a pit bull on a steak for using the wrong terminology. I admitted I was wrong about that, even though I had done if for a specific reason, which perhaps I should not have. You then attacked me about how I navigate in the fog. I'm sorry my techniques are not the ones you find most valuable but as I stated for "me" this is what works. I was not trying to imply to anyone, and as far as I know no one else read it that way, that this is my way or the high way. I was merely trying to add the fact that senses do work in the fog, even if you’re a non-believer, and to open people up to giving it a try along side plotting skills, radar, & GPS. For you to twist, which is what you have done, my words, is very telling. My words are still there for everyone to read in black & white. I hope for your sake you did not spend all day yesterday coming up with that “quoted” response above.. Perhaps using your free, built in, senses is too much, too soon, for newbies but it does not mean they can't start practicing the art of it along side other strategies like ded/dead reckoning, GPS & radar. For you to paint with such a broad brush about using senses in the fog is WAY, WAY, WAY over the top & inappropriate in a forum where folks are trying to absorb and learn some, perhaps, new techniques. I am not the only one on the planet who uses his or her senses, in addition to other tools, to navigate in the fog. Do you think the folks in some of the foggiest locals like Newfoundland, Labrador, Nova Scotia or Maine rely entirely on electronics and don’t use their senses? Not anywhere in any of your posts, except for one reference to a compass, do you mention anything other than GPS or Radar or VHF. I did not misquote you yesterday because there were no quotations. I deduced and assumed, perhaps incorrectly, that you only rely on electronics. Based on your responses it’s all I had to work with. Sorry. To say that Radar and GPS are 100 times better than ripples, wind and general senses to someone who has actually had to navigate, a good number of times, in the fog with virtually no tools is also way off base and offensive. Yes GPS and radar are far more accurate, when working, than my senses and I never, ever disputed that fact or said otherwise. You were the only one creating that myth about me believing my senses were better and more accurate than my radar and I selfishly let you dig your own grave because I was amused by it. I’ll say it again my words are there in black and white. Read them. The reason I rank my senses as so important to “me” is because it’s how I first learned to work in the fog. They also don’t konk out on me, unless I have a heart attack at the helm, and my electronics can and have konked out many times.When I was 16 my grand father and I were sailing back from the Isles of Shoals in NH when we were over come by thick fog. I was at he helm and when my grandfather went to adjust the jib sheet he tripped and took out the compass with the winch handle. The fluid went everywhere and the compass was toast! Now this was a long time ago and we were, admittedly, ill prepared with only one compass, now broken, a chart, watch, the rough knowledge of the tides position and our senses. To make a long story short we made it back, sans compass, steering to the suns faint glare through the fog, ripples, wind, lobster buoys and the boats we already knew by sound and route like the deep sea fishing boats coming and going "on schedule" from Rye Harbor. With 80 feet of vis we managed to sail the 6+ miles and land darn close to our mooring. Would that catastrophe happen today? Most likely not because I now carry four compasses, three GPS's and all the other gear necessary, with back ups, because "I learned form my experience" and no not all my fog passages in 30 years have been pleasant like you so wrongly assumed. To attempt to discredit my experience and relate it to your less than a hand full of fog trips is absurd, rude and inconsiderate to others on this forums who perhaps may have learned something from my post. Yes I've learned a lot in my years about fog and I'm sorry you can't accept that anyone other than yourself knows anything about it too & that any other viewpoint, even one based on experience, is “knuckle headed”.In all your attacks you never once disputed my other five salient points about fog navigation that I made in my first post yet you set the tone for the entire thread and took it down a bumpy dirt road. Perhaps because of your pit bull style some of those points got lost in the fog and no one benefited from them.I've been here a long time and if you search my posts you’ll see that I try and help people when ever I can and I read & learn a lot more than I post. When I have specific experience either pro or con it is only then that I will chime in.

 

[DanW9494]

Why I like sailing

Sailing is more than a hobby, it's a challenge. It's 99% fun with the risk of losing everything. It's easier to do and even master than golf, and safer and cheaper than affairs or flying. It's a pursuit for knowledge to prepare for that day when something happens like the fog rolls in.Books are great, and i've got them, but this site is an encyclopedia. Disagreement helps put more facts on the thread. It's a vital thing to make this encyclopedia a Britannia instead of the ones my mom got at the grocery store with the green stamps.No blood, no foul works for me. Personal attacks are a flagrant foul; makes Chapman more interesting to me.

 

[Malcolm Young]

Lets focus on the problem and not people

It is worth returning to answering to Warren's most excellent question. I will give it a try using what others have said and some of my own thoughts.First we must recognize some facts - GPSs can be off - on boats that I have been on there have been errors varying from 10' to 50 miles. Too frequently I have seen errors that have me running a course along the shore of a channel. These errors are not frequent but frequent enough to make me want to confirm my GPS is correct (In a rough sense I generally do this by comparing my GPS to what is around me). On my boat I have a chartplotter at the wheel and a handheld in my ditch bag which is run by AA batteries of (which I have copious quantities as the handheld radio in my ditch bag can run off normal AA if necessary)).In the question - the skipper has made a few errors before he saw the buoy. I think it is useful to convey what one should do when you see fog about to arrive. Thus, answer 1 below is my version of what he should have done when he first saw fog approaching. Answer 2 further down uses the exact facts outlined in Warren's question. Answer 1: What he should have done as the fog approachedOne of the first things you should do as fog approaches is determine your current position - by GPS since you have one and by two or three bearings or possibly one bearing and your depth if the bottom contours are reasonbly distinct, or by one bearing and distance if you have a range finder. Plot the bearings from both sources and compare to determine if you trust your GPS. Raise your radar reflector and turn on your running lightsGet your fog horn (or equivalent) and prepare to use it when the fog hits - if you don't know the fog signals look it up in the reference manual (Chapman's?) that you keep on board for such situations. (or pop in you CD of signals and select the right one to broadcast on your stero or use the function built into your loud hailing system) )Plot a course to a safe anchorage or port if there is one and if it has a safe approach, If not then plot a course away from busy throuroughfares (shipping lanes or the main channels). I suggest that if there is a lot of traffic near shore and you can't get to safety that you head away from shore into deep water and low traffic area.Put on PFDs - if you get hit you may be in the water before you know itDon't tether yourself to the boat. If you get hit and it sinks you go with itGet at least your foresail down so that you can see better. I take both down as sails can result in poor returns from your radar reflector and I can manoever under control more quickly on engine. (If I am sailing a long distance in an area of very low traffic - I may leave the sails up - particularly if I can see a couple of 100')When fog hits slow right down so that you can stop in half the distance that you can see - assuming that the other boat has slowed down with the same idea you will not hit (I know that there are idiots out there still travel at hgh speed as they have all the electronic gizmos and think they have things all in hand - however if you slow down you still have a better chance.Post a lookout on the bow - to look and listen (look for boats, nav aids etc and listen for other engines/waves breaking on the shore/and smell as sometimes you can tell where you are by the smell of a refinery or pulp and paper mill etc)If you are in heavily travelled shipping channels - periodically give a Secruity call on your VHF identifying your vessel and location and the possible hazardSteer a course either to nearby safety or out into deep safe low traffic waters and your position periodically with your GPS co-ordinates confirming with depth and anything else that you can sense or use on your boat to determine position.Answer 2 - Using the parameters of the specific question (possible GPS error)A dense bank of fog has enveloped us and we didn't think of taking and plotting a position using compass bearings or the GPS prior to being hit by the fog. We have missed our initial chance to check our GPS. I would carry out the other 'prepare for fog' steps mentioned above.Eureka! We have the good fortune to see a buoy, however it is the wrong one. Alarm bells go off in your head - could it be that you put the wrong co-ordinates in for the waypoint - that is easily checked by plotting the position the GPS shows on your chart and see what buoy it corrresponds to. If it is another buoy check the identification (numbers/letters/colour/shape/sound/light characteristics) against your position on the chart. Check your depthsounder and the actual depth. If the position your GPS provides does not correspond to the location of any buoy your GPS is suspect and the buoy position is suspect - check your chart for the buoy you have in front of you - they are all individually identified by number/letter. If you find one then at least you know where you are. (as long as the buoy position has not shifted). Also - if you are in tidal or river waters, before you leave the buoy note the current direction and speed relative to the buoy.To determine if the buoy has shifted or the GPS is wrong you need to make some decisions that depend a lot on information that isn't part of the problem Warren posed. You could plot a course to the next buoy in the direction you want to go (correct for tidal currrents) and watch the depth contour - if something looks bad then look for an explanation. If you end up without a reliable position (because the buoy is off position) and your GPS does not seem to be working then you are pretty lost - better make sure you are going dead slow in a direction that is likely to be safe according to where you think you are, your trusty compass, your depth sounder and your paper chart.However, lets assume that you did find the buoy that you have in front of you on the chart (and hopefully the GPS confirms this) then plot a course to a safe place (open water away from traffic/ or a safe anchorage - see my answer above.Notes:You should have absolute faith in your magnetic compass. You should have compensated it so that it correctly reads magnetic and you should have the knowledge to correct this to True using the variation on your chart. You must be able to plot and steer a course. If you don't know your compass is reading correctly then you better not run into trouble. A compass does not fail as long as you keep it away from magnetic influences. Even so I also have two high quality bearing compasses that I could steer by.A good compass is only a part of the puzzle if you are in tidal waters with a suspect GPS - as has been pointed out you need to know tidal set (direction) and the speed of the current and be able to compensate. You can get an estimate of these from Tide and Current Tables - however these don't cover every location - but you can interpolate. You can also use estimates based on watching the current and direction as it goes around a buoy - you can get a reasonable estimate and correct for it in your plots. If you have a semi working GPS as Maine Sail identified you should still be able to get drift (speed) and set (direction) by using the GPS - even if the absolute position is off the direction and speed shown is probably reasonably accurate.If you don't know what I am talking about then take the necessary courses to learn. It could mean the life of you and your family. Electronics fail.By the way - I invite logical discussion as there is usually more than one way to deal with such situations and I have personally learned a lot from these boards.By the way Maine Sail - if you get this far down the post - I actually bought a Rocna to replace my CQR (even though, as I posted earlier, the CQR has never dragged once set, the reason being is that it takes a few tries to get it to set in some bottoms). Thank you for your input.

 

[Maine Sail]

Great post Malcom!!

I'll add one thing about having your compass calibrated. DO IT! It only costs a couple of hours of labor but is very, very worth it and critical. Most folks just assume their compass is correct but more often than not it's off due to ferrous metals and electrical interference. One thing to keep in mind is if you have electronics at the helm, such as radar or GPS, VHF Autopilot etc.. Make sure to calibrate your compass with these items in the ON position. Electrical fields of your electronics can cause your compass to be off significantly and are slightly different in the ON position than in the OFF. When I had Maine Compass Services "swing my compass" last summer we set it up for electronics ON but then made a deviation card for "electronics OFF" or failed electronics. I was amazed at the difference between electronics on and off and it sometimes, on certain courses, is off more than just 1 or 2 degrees. Know the difference at N, S, E & W with electronics on and off. It may not be off at all with just a small GPS but with a full array of electronics it can certainly deviate.You don't need to calibrate every year but if you make any changes to your cockpit like speakers, adding a steel Danforth to the lazarette or anything that was not there when you calibrated such as an outboard motor on the stern rail have it checked. I think Maine Compass charges me about $100.00 to swing my compass so it could be higher or lower depending on where you are.Good luck with the Rocna Malcom!!

 

[Nice N Easy]

Excellent Post

Malcom and Maine Sail. Those last two posts were excellent, and dead on the money. Maine, the compass swing every year may be overkill, but well advised. I do not do that, but I also have mostly different circumstances. I navigate when inshore mostly by landmarks, and our fog banks usually roll in at night, or very early morning. If I am anchored up when the fog hits I just stay put, and blow the horn. Thats not much of an excuse, I know, but around here at this time, finding someone capable of swinging a compass would be about like trying to explain the joys of sailing to a landlubber.

 

[DanW9494]

Solar Flares and GPS

Found this on DrudgeSun activity affecting GPS system, satellites may need upgraded signal strength. Flares affect your receiver and reception.Thought it not too far off the conversation.

 

[higgs]

One Man's Opinion/Trav'ler

I have it on indisputably good authority that One Man's Opinion is NOT a rant against new technology. It is a rant against narrow attitudes. Nothing more.The author still considers a $500 outlay to be a significant expenditure. The fact that people have sailed small boats safely for hundreds of years over vast oceans has convinced him that the sport can be approached safely without all the fancy gear. Nowhere does the piece criticize the use of new technology - it merely defends the position that safe sailing can be done without spending thousands of dollars to outfit a boat.

 

[caguy]

Thank you Malcolm for your informative post.

I probably learned more from that post than anywhere else. I have a GPS on the boat and my old portable Venture for back-up. I tend to use the compass only because it is easier to see in the sunlight. I have been geocaching with my grand kids for a while now and noticed how remarkably accurate the little Venture is. We were able to locate to within 3 ft. Even when the Venture claimed 9 to 27 ft. accuracy. When I was demonstrating the Garmin 185 to a friend, I found that as I zoomed in the maps became more and more accurate. If I viewed the map where the whole harbor was on the screen it showed us on the edge of the channel but as I zoomed in to just the channel it showed us on dead center where we were. In high zoom I could not believe how accurate it was. I know at certain times of the day and depending how many satellites are accessible the accuracy will vary. I tried to find the article linked by Dan W but it only went to the main index. My question is does fog affect the accuracy. I wouldn't think so but then my fog experience is very limited. I usually check the weather forecast and keep an eye on distant objects to see if they disappear. If the fog ever rolled in suddenly I am one that would be lost without my GPS. I've noticed at Marina Del Rey that the channels for leaving and entering the Marina are very narrow, but everyone is hopefully traveling in the same direction. Would it be safe practice to tag along on a larger boat presumably with all the bell and whistles on it and follow it in? Any suggestions on sharpening my senses to coincide with GPS?I am familiar with the area that I sail in to know the directions of the swells and I recognize the swell variations over the few reefs just north of the marina. I also know the direction that the jets out of LAX come from. I know the creaking sounds of the large buoys and the barking of the seals that live on them but throw a blanket over my head and I'll need a change of underwear. I read somewhere in someone's log that if it got too thick that it was best to head out toward an area of little traffic and wait it out. Sitting out there listening to a loud stereo seems prudent.Stu, I hear where you are coming from and agree in principal but the compass and sextant at one time was considered new technology. I'm an old guy but I have learned to embrace new technology unlike my dad who only uses a cell phone because we found one with a rotary dial.Thanks to all for your help. Frank

 

[Stu Jackson]

Just to correct a (perhaps) misinterpretation

I did NOT write that story, Joe Higgs, did, see the end of the story. I guess I'll have to put a disclaimer on it again, but right up front.I agree, it's your point of view, and it's not either or, my way or the highway, but rather a choice as to how you choose to sail, based on the conditions that you expect to be exposed to.In addition to George's post, I've found it rare, but it does happen, that the fog here gets down on the deck. It did for me recently, but here's the way I choose to use my GPS: (an old one, as I've said, with only #s and no chartplotter stuff) I know where the buoys and other waypoints are, and I use a chart to keep track of where I am, where I was and where I'm heading. I know the waypoints because I went there myself and put them in my GPS and checked them against the lightlists. I use triangulation to keep track of our position. I chose not to purchase a chartplotter, which, admittedly will give me the same information that I get from my GPS and chart in one hardly colorful screen, but it serves the same purpose for me. When we were in that pea soup fog, we hit (almost literally) Mile Rocks tower as it appeared out of the gloom, and then, listening to vessel traffic service on Channels 12 & 14 determined there was no shipping traffic, headed north across the opening of the Gate to the Pt. Bonita channel marker, which is when the speeding motorboat came roaring by.Yes, if I sailed in those conditions on a regular basis, you bet I'd rearrange my priorities and would most likely purchase radar. But I don't, so I won't.I appreciate all who have mentioned how great it is to see on your chartplotter that you're right in the channel. Hope you do that on a clear day, too, so you gain trust in your equipment, its operation and repeatability, and keep your head outside your boat, too.Your boat, your choice, no right or wrong.

 

[caguy]

Stu you're right, pass my regards onto Higgs

Stu at what point would you just drop anchor and wait it out? How many boat lenghts of visibility? I know in the book by Hal Roth that I am reading they listened for the sound of the breakers on shore. With my hearing I could be in the middle of the Bonsai Pipeline and not hear it.Frank

 

[Stu Jackson]

Depends on where we "be"

Given where George Bean and I sail, there just aren't a whole lot of places to drop the hook, compared to the quiz question. The east side of the main SF Bay is rather shallow (26-38 ft) but it's east of Treasure Island which is one big hunking piece of sand! Plus they're (finally) building this bridge there, so there's always some kind of heavy commercial traffic. The rest of the Bay is doggone deep, except for up near Sausalito, another anchorage. And forget about anything outside the Gate. The trick would be to find a place to hide: hmm, Alcatraz, nope too many ferries, Angel Island, too many ferries, the list goes on. There's a lot of commercial traffic in the Bay and we (most of us) have learned where they go - plus they are VERY good to sailors.So, we really don't have anywhere to "drop the hook" without at least a half hour's trip from anywhere in the central Bay.

 

[Warren Milberg]

I posted this question

...as the event described actually happened to me some years ago. I was then sailing a wonderful Alberg Sea Sprite with minimal electronics. I did, however, have a first generation Garmin 45 GPS into which I had plugged a number of waypoints. In those days, plugging waypoints into your GPS meant picking them off a nautical chart and punching every number into the GPS waypoint database. A fun, but tedious task. You could also pass each one and mark it that way, but that is sort of impractical with a large numbers of distant waypoints -- some which I hadn't been to at all yet. Anyway....in my particular case, when I passed the wrong waypoint it then occurred to me that that the problem was one of having transposed a number when entering the lat/long of the waypoint -- this is an easy and common error to make. When I realized this error,I selected the next waypoint on my route plan back to the marina, but plotted the lat/long of it on my chart first. When I got within a mile or so of the narrow channelinto my marina,I realized how dangerous it would be to try to enter it in the pea soup fog all around me as I assumed a lot of other boats were trying the same thing at the same time. Just as I was considering this, a big and newish Swan passed me at speed very close to starboard. It was clear he didn't see me until he was just about upon me. So...I think that this big, new, expensive boat is going to have all the latest in fancy electronics and seemed to be heading for the same channel as me. He must know what he's doing and where he's going. So I turn the throttle up on the engine and fall in line behind him with the idea of him leading me into the marina. Very soon thereafter, the big Swan begins to hobby-horse and I know he's aground! I quicky did a 180 and motored back to where I was and put down my anchor in 15 ft of water. I made a cup of coffee and sat in my cockpit ringing my bell every few minutes and was quite comfortable. The fog lifted a few hours later and I upped anchor and motored home without further incident. I saw the Swan was in "no-man's land" way outside the entrance to the channel and he was still hard aground....

 

[Robert Gainer]

If I wanted to match my skills against electronics

Maybe I just don’t get it. It’s understandable that some people would jump to use available technology when it comes to safety. But why is the subject such a hot button issue. Some people sail on gaff rigged boats and others sail on modern high tech boats. Both are good choices and you can’t say one is better then the other. The choice depends on what the owner want to do. The same applies to navigation and boat handling in general. Some people enjoy navigation as a hobby independent of sailing. They enjoy the challenge of navigating in the style they choose. Marvin Creamer sailed entirely around the world without any navigation equipment at all including no compass, no sextant, in fact no instruments of any type. Not my style but it works for him. He accomplished something that I don’t think most if any of you could do even if you had the use of a GPS. Doesn’t make it the right choice for me or for you but it is the right choice for him.I don’t have a GPS yet and somehow I just don’t feel limited in any way. I see the value in them but I am not in a rush to buy one. I have been using a sextant and taffrail log for a lot of years and get a sense of satisfaction from each and every one of my landfalls. My style is right for me and it doesn’t look like anybody is going to change that any time soon. I sail because I enjoy the sense of accomplishment that comes from a successful trip and part of that feeling comes from using a boat with simple systems and traditional methods. If I wanted to match my skills against electronics instead of nature I could stay at home and sail my computer.All the best,Robert Gainer

 

[Ross]

I can see how a person could find his way

on the ocean if his knowledge of the stars was extensive. When Polaris dips below the horizon you know you have crossed the equator. Keeping track of the days would help. Land fall is not something that happens suddenly but rises up from the ocean surface quite slowly as you approach.

 

[Malcolm Young]

Caguy - a response to some of your comments

You asked about the effect of fog on the GPS - I have had no apparent effect on my position by fog and did some searching on the web and the most authoritative responses indicated that the frequency of GPS signals was chosen to avoid this problem and quoted highly technical tests that demonstrated this. However they did indicate that if a layer of water a couple of mm thick covers the antenna then problems will exist - wiping this away restores the functioning of the GPS. There was also mention of problems in reception with the antenna of a handheld beneath water covered canvas in a heavy rain. I have also experienced the problems you mentioned regarding chart accuracy at different zoom levels - for example in the channel for my own harbour if you are zoomed in fully the route is pretty well exacly where we are. If you are zoomed out one level it shows me on top of the North Pier. I think this is because we have two levels of detail on the acutal paper charts - one shows an area probably 50 miles long and then there is a harbour detail insert on the chart on which you can see the pilings. When you zoom out from the greatest detail (even just one level) the chartplotter must pick up the chart that covers 50 miles and of course we would be lucky if the accuracy of that chart is 50 feet (the width of a line on the paper chart used is probably more than 50') - it is unfortunate that a chart plotter allows you to expand a small portion of a chart giving you the impression that you know your position on that chart far better than the basic accuracy of the chart that is being used.That said, the problems that I had with GPS chartplotter accuracy were not related to level of zoom. - they may be caused by signal problems (such as solar flares as suggested by another poster) or they may have been caused by chart accuracy, and on a boat that I was charting - I think they were caused by antenna problems (fortunately I had my handheld which worked perfectly) - whatever they were caused by they ment that you could not trust the readings from the GPS - which means that if a fog bank is approaching do what you can to confirm your position by other means which I suggested in my previous post.Regarding using your senses to help determine where you are - in your post you seem to have made observations already that can help. I made some suggestions previously - anything that you can see, hear, smell or as you mentioned - motion helps. The main thing is to use all of your senses all the time and if what you see, hear, smell or feel doesn't seem to be confirmed by your GPS then look for another way to reconfirming your location. If you can't then head slowly for safe water using your trustworthy recently compensated compass, as mentioned in my earlier post.Sorry for the delayed response - we had company for Easter.