Take it to the bank

[Franklin]

just one more point and then I'm done

If your hearing is so much better then radar, why did you go out and buy radar? Maybe you just like beating your chest saying "I'm such a great sailor...I don't need any of these tools". Please. You need to stop beating your chest. You might hurt something.

 

[Ross]

That is good visibility, You would be able to

see the next mark if you steered within 5 degrees for a nm. It is when you pass the buoy and look back and can't see it after a half minute that it is rough.

 

[Stu Jackson]

C'mon guys

Chill out, please. you're getting to the point of misquoting each other, and if you reread the stuff, sometimes you're actually agreeing! *!It's almost getting time to repost Joe's "Trav'ler" story.

 

[Frank]

Why are you arguing about radar?

Why are we arguing about radar? The question clearly states that in this situation we DON'T have radar. Radar is cool but for this senerio we have to pretend we don't have it. I don't know about other places but around Galveston Bay many of the boaters are heavy drinkers so I'm going to use every tool at my disposal...including my senses. I don't have radar anyway so none radar techniques are what I need to hear about and I think it's the point of this discussion and is the intent of Warren Milberg. Perhaps he should have said, "and your radar isn't working" so people wouldn't argue this issue and miss this point.

 

[Waffle]

Franklin, stop fighting with

want to be(s)

 

[Maine Sail]

Well it sure is interesting

C'mon Franklin now your misquoting me."If your hearing is so much better then radar, why did you go out and buy radar? Maybe you just like beating your chest saying "I'm such a great sailor...I don't need any of these tools". I never said my hearing was better than radar I said, for me, my senses are my first with plotting and then I explained that it's how I learned to navigate, then my electronics. If you would actually read you'll see that I use every tool at my disposal in the fog including my radar and my ears and my GPS and my watch and my compass and my charts and my fog horn and my ded reckoning skills. Beating my chest? Please calling me knuckle head and saying I have half a brain for daring to give some advice about fog navigation is what started this whole debate. Oh and I don't go back and edit out and delete things I've said and others have copied and pasted as quotes to make myself look better after the fact like you do. I clearly see that you have edited some of your posts to make your self look good but it only makes you look more immature. I think lots of folks remember the "knuckleheads" or "have half a brain" quotes that where there earlier and now all of a sudden gone. My quotes of you are directly from your posts using the copy and paste functions and the only things I added were the quotation marks.

 

[Malcolm Young]

Some observations and why turn to starboard

First - Warren an excellent topic!I think that a lot more good information was brought out because of Franklin's intervention. I totally agree with Franklin when he indicates that stand on and giive way should be used iinstead of right of way - he explained his logic very well - they are much more accurate as to what is expected. He made good points about using the correct sound signals instead of making continuous noise - there were other good points as well. Franklin, I expect that your points would have been taken a lot better if they had been put forward in a helpful way using logical discussion.That said, if I was in a fog I'd rather be with Maine Sail, particularly when my batteries went dead due to the rising water in Warren's last topic!Using water depths for navigation in the fog is very important if the bottom has noticeable changes and you know the tidal height then you can pilot your boat along bottom contours - Just watching the bottom contour change has saved me when passing though a hazardous area in a fog - the bottom came up from 600' to 100' about a quarter of a mile too soon - this told me I was too far inshore and that rocks near the surface were only 300 or 400 feet dead ahead. I didn't have a GPS then and I didn't need one - so if current my chartplotter and its back-up fail I know the techniques to plot my Dead Reckoning position using various indicators and estimates.What Maine Sail is saying is know how to deal with demanding navigation and piloting conditions without all the electronic aids that can break down easily. If you can do this, you certainly can handle the electronic aids. Know how to correct for tidal currents using the tidal tables in a book and by observations on your boat and then if things break down you can do it.Now why should you turn to starboard - you should do this in limited visibility if the approaching vessel appears to be forward of abeam. In that case both vessels will turn away from each other. Franklin, in the instance that you gave with a vessel approaching from aft the COLREGs call for a change of course away from the vessel approaching from the stern.I will copy the applicable section of Rule 19 - Conduct of vessels in restricted visibility"d) A vessel which detects by radar alone the presence of another vessel shall determine if a close-quarters situation is developing and/or risk of collision exists. If so, she shall take avoiding action in ample time, provided that when such action consists of an alteration in course, so far as possible the following shall be avoided: (ed. NOTE THIS SAYS AVOIDED)(i) An alteration of course to port for a vessel forward of the beam, other than for a vessel being overtaken;(ii) An alteration of course toward a vessel abeam or abaft the beam."Note these are for a vessel with radar - however the same philosophy applies to vessels that you detect by hearing the sound signal (while it is difficult to tell where a sound is coming from in the fog - it is easier to determine if it is coming from the bow or the stern)I think we should encourage differences of opinion and discussion - it helps to reinforce the points and people remember. However, discussion works a lot better if we do it in a way that is logical and respects people for the effort they are putting into it.

 

[Joe]

Radar and Franklin

the initial post clearly states that there is no radar in this scenario!!!!Franklin... get humble and give MaineSail the respect he deserves. Of all the posters here, his advice is the most consistly helpful. You need to recognize that his comments are for your benefit, so set aside the sophmoric attitude and give yourself a chance to learn something.

 

[DanW9494]

Spring fever

Okay, I'm ready for Joe's "Trav'ler" story if it will help. Pleassssse

 

[Ross]

Just one question about radar

I haven't looked at a radar screen for more than forty years but at that time you needed to plot the movement of the return in order to determine course and speed. Has this need changed?

 

[Warren Milberg]

Thought it might be useful to

post this note from the USCG Local Notice to Mariners, fyi:"CAUTION TO BE USED IN RELIANCE UPON AIDS TO NAVIGATIONThe aids to navigation depicted on charts comprise a system of fixed and floating aids with varying degrees of reliability. Therefore, prudent mariners will not rely solely on any single aid to navigation, particularly a floating aid. With respect to buoys, the buoy symbol is used to indicate the approximate position of the buoy body and the sinker, which secures the buoy to the seabed. The approximate position is used because of practical limitations in positioning and maintaining buoys and their sinkers in precise geographical locations. These limitations include, but are not limited to, inherent imprecision-s in position fixing methods, prevailing atmospheric and sea conditions, the slope of and the material making up the seabed, the fact that buoys are moored to sinkers by varying lengths of chain, and the fact that buoy body and/or sinker positions are not under continuous surveillance but are normally checked only during periodic maintenance visits which often occur more than a year apart. The position of the buoy body can be expected to shift inside and outside the charting symbol due to the forces of nature. The mariner is also cautioned that buoys are liable to be carried away, shifted, capsized, sunk, etc. Lighted buoys may be extinguished or sound signals may not function as the result of ice, running ice or other natural causes, collisions, or other accidents. For the foregoing reasons, a prudent mariner must not rely completely upon the position or operation of floating aids to navigation, but will also utilize bearings from fixed objects and aids to navigation on shore. Further, a vessel attempting to pass close aboard always risks collision with a yawing buoy or with the obstruction the buoy marks."

 

[Ross]

Warren, even with range lights there is quite a

wide viewing band. I know when one light is above the other I am in the channel but the channel is wide enough to allow ships to pass each other while each keeps the range in line. The first thing I do when I pick up a range is check my compass course for that bearing. That way if something should fail I can steer by compass rather than by nav-aid.

 

[Warren Milberg]

Ross: We are of the same mind

Perhaps like you note, whenever I pick up a course, by range, GPS, or whatever, I also like to make a mental note of the compass course, too. Years ago, I was overtaken by a thick fog on the bay. I didn't have a GPS then (not sure they were even available then...). Had I not taken a compass bearing off of a distant dolphin, I would have been totally disoriented when the fog enveloped me.

 

[Franklin]

Maine Sail

I assumed that you list your order of things to use from most effective to least effective. I assumed you wouldn't put people's boats and people's lives at risk by using the least effective tools first. If both of these assumptions are correct, then you are saying that your senses are more effective in fog then radar and GPS.Since you are the fog expert, I guess that means that GPS and radar is worthless. Those of us that have these, we should throw them away because they aren't needed because our ears, eyes and noises are our best tools. Just think of all the weigth aloft we will save by throwing them away. Just think of all the battery juice we will save.Tomorrow I'll go around the marina and leave notes on each boat that has a GPS and/or radar, telling them that I will gladly help them uninstall their systems and dispose of it for them for a small fee because a very experienced sailor in Maine has discovered that they are worthless. Since just about every boat here has at least one of these systems, I guess I'll be very busy for a while.BTW: I didn't say you had half a brain. I said that your 30 year experience doesn't mean you know it all, or have half a brain. Later I had realized you might not be able to understand what I was saying so I removed it. I removed it before your next post but I guess not before you read it. I guess I was right in that you didn't understand it.

 

[Stu Jackson]

At Dan's request

ONE MAN'S OPINION September 16, 1997Cruising World August 1995  C:CStu BoatOPINION.WP6I can no longer remain silent. At first I thought itwas just a few eccentrics, but I am now afraidthat I am beginning to see a pattern. I think thatthe final straw was the recent article I read onsailing in fog that said that if I didn't have a radaron my boat, perhaps I had misappropriated myboating budget. I must confess: I have no radar. Not only do I not have a radar, but I have nointentions of buying one. My new gear prioritieslist does not even contain this item.I must go on: I do not have a GPS. Can youimagine that I actually sail - even cruise - withoutone?There's more. I do not have roller furling. Yes,that's right. I actually have more than one jiband what is more, I have to hank it on - one hankat a time - every time I go sailing. Wait! Whenthe wind is up and the seas build I actually goforward, on the top of the deck and - now get this- change to a different jib. Can you believe thatanyone can be so primitive?More. My only electronics are a Loran (recentlypurchased), a speed/log, a depthsounder and acheap VHF. Yes, I will admit it. My VHF is a lowpriced model! Furthermore, my electronics arenot interlinked or whatever fancy jargonaficionados use to indicate that their electronicstalk to each other. No, I do not have ananemometer. At times I can be caught standingon deck estimating the wind speed. I even go sofar as to make sail changes based on the boat'ssailing characteristics. I have never told anyonethis, but I am ready to bare all: I don't have anapparent wind indicator. I am not lying. We usea piece of - I am so embarrassed - a piece ofcassette tape tied to the shroud. I do believe itwas from "Smurfs Do the Whitbread" orsomething like that.At any rate, we survive and make port withoutcalling for assistance. We enjoy wonderfulmeals cooked on the Weber that hangs off thestern pulpit and corn on the cob cooked on, of allthings, an alcohol stove.I could go on and on. By now you must havefigured out that my boat is OLD (1973). Heavenforbid!It's hard to imagine that I could enjoy sailingunder these abominable conditions, but the truthis that I am as addicted as the guy who has allthe equipment. I am proud to say that my boat isnot a marina queen - she lives on a mooring -from which it is easier to sail her. Her name isTrav'ler and I make sure she lives up to hername.We have lost sight of what this sport is all about. We have lost sight of nature, of ourselves, andour God, unless your God is powered by 12volts. Mine is not. Once - and I remember this -an RDF was considered a luxury. I remember atrip in fog so thick (you know the cliché) and wemade it home with nothing more than acompass, a depthsounder, a sumlog and a VHF. Once we even did a fog run without the sumlog,as it had broken. We just estimated our speed. I know my boat so well that I could estimate herspeed within a fraction of a knot. Whattremendous satisfaction there is in reaching yourport using the true skills of a seaman.We often hear the lament of how nonsailorsperceive our sport to be one that is reserved forthe wealthy. Is it any wonder when we readarticles about how we all should have radar, orhow our latest mast project only cost $1,200? These are elitist statements made by peoplewho know nothing about the lives most of us live. Sailing can be done safely and enjoyably on abudget and I feel it is about time that those of uswho sail on a budget speak up.Joe HigginsCrystal Lake, Illinois

 

[Stu Jackson]

Thanks, Franklin

for your gracious note. In case you missed it, please see post #37 at: http://www.sailboatowners.com/forums/pviewall.tpl?fno=21&uid=73200280089&sku=2007092204207.22

 

[Nice N Easy]

Stu, wonderful piece

Stu, a very wonderful piece. And so true. I will admit that I have made the concessions of some modern electronics. Not because of any elitist needs, but I am going on 69 years old, and I now take the easy way out. So I have radar, and a chartplotter, and auto pilot and roller furling. Hopefully I will never have to drag my tired old but up on a foredeck ever again and change a head sail. But I have earned my time for taking it easy. Started sailing in a Chrysler 22, with nothing but a compass for navigation. Back before Loran was a popular nav aid. Sailed that boat everywhere, including Corpus to the Yucatan and back. I will admit that in those days I was much younger and extremely more stupid.

 

[William12213]

to use or not to use..that is the question??

I am amazed that this seems to be such a hot topic...to use modern electronics or stay with the tried and true ways of old. Why is this even a debate. Every sailor (boater in a perfect world) should now how to navigate with charts, compass, and watch. You need to know the basics before you think about proceeding to the next level. The truth is most people don't want to put the time in to learn how to use it whether it is a chart and compass or a GPS and RADAR. Nothing is effective if you don’t learn to use it properly.There is nothing wrong with using the modern electronic devices. They can make sailing safer for some, more available for others. Seldom will you find someone on the water that does not have a GPS of some sort as a minimum. They are very inexpensive and accurate today. I know that there are a few old salts out there that will say they can get just as close the old school way and maybe so but not your average boater. Since the GPS is cheap, accurate and easy to use, why not use it?RADAR although, not all that cheap is very affordable to many. (Ebay helps with this I am sure). I think we can all admit that when properly used, it definitely would be an aid in the fog. So if you can afford it, it is fairly simple to use and it could make you a little safer, why not use it?I could go on and on…electric wenches help older sailors keep sailing, Biminis help keep the sun off the fair skinned, refrigeration keeps the beer cold. The truth of it is that there is a lot out there to help make our sailing days more comfortable, safer, and easier. To some this may not be for them but for others it allows them to get out on the water. Using the modern technology is not an elitist move unless you are doing it just to keep up with the Kennedy’s in the next slip. We all have to do what we are comfortable with….if you prefer to navigate with chart and compass then by all means…if you prefer your chart plotter and RADAR then have at it. Other than knowing the basic and keeping up on those skills one way is no better than the other especially if you don’t know how to use it well. I am in the military and when I lead a patrol we use all that is available, GPS, map, Compass and pace count. I check them against each other for accuracy. Truth is it is easier to plot out course into the GPS before we ever leave the base and follow the pointer to the objective. But I have the skills to use my map and compass to get me there when the batteries in the GPS die. On the other hand are you prepared when your compass breaks or your map becomes unreadable?I just find this debate over whether to use one method or another very foolish…again I agree that we all need to know the basics but in the real world that just is not a reality, so I hope that that guy with the big powerboat barreling down on me has his RADAR on and the proximity alarm set so it gets his attention before he hits me!This is a great forum and I have learned a lot by being part of it and some debate is always good but thee seems to be a lot of "my way is the right way" on here and the really sucks!

 

[Stu Jackson]

Not either or

William, I think your presentation was very good and understandable. I agree with you that "...but there seems to be a lot of "my way is the right way" on here and the really sucks..."You'll note that someone agreed that perhaps he got out of hand, and many of us tried to calm things down.However, I don't think that the question ever implied there was a right or a wrong way to do things, I think you're right in that one respondent started down that path in disagreeing with another. And that the other merely attempted to defend himself against unwarranted misinterpretations. I think we all have learned from this. Spring is right around the corner, if not here already.You'll also note that there ARE a lot of different ways to do things, which is what this forum is all about. Just take a look at the stuffing box thread this week - there are still some people who insist that it MUST be done out of the water, but they are free to continue to feel that way. It's the guy who asks the question who has to decide on the credibility of the answers, which is why there is such a long disclaimer on this and other 'sites.Personally, I'd tend to believe someone who wrote in full sentences, spelled correctly and didn't yell or demean anyone else. (Someone like you!)Finally, it just occurred to me that the original thread topic, "Take It to the Bank" has a play on words in many directions -- the answer to the question (hmmm...?), as well as a specific, there-is-only-one-right-answer-to-this-question (as in, for sure).One of the beauties in boating is that there are many different ways to do things, and we all stand to learn a lot from others' opinions.Just remember, two editorials never made one news story.

 

[HAL]

FOG

We like fog .We lived as Down East as you can get and navigating in our dooryard was a trick when your outstretched hand would disappear. We haven't navigated our boat in much fog yet. I'm sure if I can apply the wisdom of generations of working with fog and modern aids it will be a lot easier and more fun.