Take it to the bank

[Ross]

If you can stop your boat in the water

(that will depend upon the wind ) then in a few minutes your GPS can show your drift. Watch the bubbles beside your boat, when they stay with you then the GPS will show whatever current exists, both speed and direction. If you are alert you can change direction in five seconds or less.

 

[David10790]

Jennifer has it Right

There is about a 100% chance that the GPS is right and that someone screwed up on the input of the waypoint - very easy to do. If you have a chart, you do know where you are, so you're not lost. If you don't have a chart, I assume the GPS has at least some mapping function that can tell where you are.I have sailed and motored in fog, and prefer motoring at very slow speed. With already lousy visability, I want the headsail out of the way, and I want to be able to speed up or slow down fast.The idea of being in as shallow water as your draft allows is a good one. At least if you get run down, it won't be an oil tanker.I don't see the point of getting on the radio. You have no assurance that everyone in your area is listening, so it's hard to see what it gets you.I agree with Franklin, the colregs state that the prime rule is that each captan has the duty to avoid collision. This is no time to stand on the order of priorities for stand on and give way, since you can't see who is doing what, or what kind of vessel they are.Finally, I agree with Maine Sail about your senses. You will often hear someone coming in fog long before you see them, but not if you're blasting your stereo or runnning the engine at 2500 rpm.Let's be careful out there!

 

[BobW]

Dang, William, that IS thick fog....

I can't see ANYTHING in the picture.......?Cheers,Bobs/v X SAIL R 8

 

[Maine Sail]

Franklin ...

Wow what got your panties in a knot today? Forget to take your Midol? Please don't take everything so literally. When I said right of way I said it that way because 80% of the boaters out there have no clue what "stand on" vessel means and it's safer if they understand that a vessel fishing has (in loose terms) the right "of way" or the right to "stand on" and you as the sailor technically have the duty to yield to the vessel fishing. I can't tell you how many sailors think they are the "stand on" vessel when approaching lobster fisherman here in Maine. It is absurd! If I hear one more time I'm the sail boat I have "right of way over a power boat" regardless of the fact they are fishing I'll scream. Yes it is the duty of both vessels to avoid a collision but my warning was to let folks know that the commercial fisherman in many parts of this country take this far less seriously than do pleasure boaters. My post was more a heads up about the reality of navagiting in fog & not the Bill of Rights.There are very few times when a real "right of way" is actually defined by the COLREGS, you may know that and I may know that but most DON'T. Unfortunately most boaters mistake and interchange the terms "right of way" and "stand on" any way. So I ask what is safer? Is in not safer for an uneducated boater to understand, even if they think it's a right of way issue, that a vessel fishing is the stand on vessel and they are not. Seeing as most boaters mistakenly refer to "stand on" as a right of way I figured I would use language most understood. Quote - Franklin:"Navigating by depth guage may work for some waters but very few."That's why I said "These days I don't know the contours as well because I don't have to but my depth sounder, at least in Maine, is a very very important piece of nav equipment. "The "at least in Maine" part is the give away that a depth sounder won't be a viable nav aid in many areas where the bottom is relatively flat and featureless. With that said if I were in an area with a boring, non descript bottom the depth sounder might be last on the list but I stated that for "me in Maine"...Note that I listed my order as pertaining to "me" as in: "For me I rank them in this order for fog and I have LOTS of experience in PEA SOUP. While I use GPS a lot these days I do not rely on it for my fog navigation and rely on it as a nice quick "check & balance" for my other plotting skills."Notice that I did say I use GPS and radar and you will find in my posts that I am one of the biggest defenders of GPS on this board. I just don't depend on them as my sole navigation aids.Perhaps with my vast experience in fog I am a little over the top when talking about senses but with literally thousands of miles spent on the water in the fog it is still MY number one most reliable, collision avoidance nav aid. I would not expect you or anyone else with considerably less experience in the fog to get it. Quote - Franklin:"Radar and GPS are 100 times better then looking at ripples in the water and wind on your ears. Please. Knuckleheads. If you don't have the expensive tools that's one thing, but to put it last on your check list is stupid."Franklin you really are more mature than this aren't you? When you get a 1/10 of the experience, in fog, that I have, call me and we'll have a discussion.. Perhaps by then you'll understand why I rank my tools for fog in that order. Remember I spent years and years, navigating in the fog, long before radar, loran or GPS on a very dangerous rocky coast with thousands and thousands of ledges that have eaten more ships than any coast line in this country. Perhaps today sailors don't feel senses are important but even with all my fancy electronics from my C-80 with radar to my automatic fog horn hailer I still rely on my senses and my plotting skills more than my 4k in "fancy" electronics. My first lobster boat, at age 11, was a 14 foot aluminum Duranautic skiff with a 10 hp outboard and no navigation equipment except for a boy scout compass kept in an army munitions box along with flares and other emergency items. I learned to navigate in the fog with minimal aids readily available and my father & grandfather taught me that way so I would know and understand the intricate complexities other than looking at a compass for guidance all the time because they knew the importance of senses in the fog. I'm sorry that your manhood is so tested, or your experience in the fog so limited, that you can't accept the fact that senses can play a major role in fog navigation and I truly feel sorry for you that you need to revert to name calling...Before you spout your drivel about depending on radar or GPS because they are "the best" because they are "expensive" maybe you should spend some time sailing here in Maine, in the fog, and then you'll actually grasp the concept of it all beyond fancy electronics.

 

[Rick Webb]

Be Prepared, ATONs & Channels Move

Just ask the Brits who are "guests" of the Iranians. Check your charts paper and electronic for updates and changes often.

 

[Ross]

We really have excellant charts today

here is a link to the office of coast survey historic pilots. It is a real eye opener.http://nauticalcharts.noaa.gov/nsd/hcp.htm

 

[Frank]

Stand On

Here in the Galveston Bay area it's best to just get out of the way of shrimpers. They'll run you down! It doesn't matter who's right. Dead right is still just as dead...

 

[Ross]

I give way to other boats, cars, kids on bikes,

kids playing in the road, BIG trucks, and all trucks are big, buses, people that look bigger, meaner, or in a hurry, Tugs with gravel barges, seaplanes landing or taking off. do you begin to see a trend here? I like to avoid trouble.

 

[Fred T]

Fog Bank

1. STOP the boat! 2. Hopefully, you started your fog signals going when you were about to enter the fog bank. Otherwise, start now to signal.3. If possible, MARK the ATON/whatever on your GPS, before the fog obscures it. MOB function is good for this.4. Maintain your position - but beware of anchoring: you might need to move quickly to dodge an underway boat.  NOTE Ideally, perform steps 1-4 simultaneously. Aren't you glad that  you, the competent skipper, have been preparing your crew for this?5. Using a paper chart, soundings, compass (all those old-fashioned things) GPS, LORAN if you have one and your own senses, figure out where the heck you are BEFORE you start moving again. Do you hear/smell anything? Are there markings on the ATON? etc etc. Check your dead reckoning, if you maintained it (realistically, not many of us would have done this on our own home waters).6. Once you have a fix or estimated position move off slowly.7. Keep looking, sniffing, and listening. Do your piloting. Keep signals going and broadcast an occasional "securite"8. Locate your slip. Tie up snugly. Pat self on back. Pour stiff drink and enjoy. Buy new GPS.Fredp.s. A good point mentioned in some other replies: run up your radar reflector.

 

[Franklin]

So funny

A stopped boat doesn't make any noise. Your senses will not pick up on a boat with a crew down below making coffee while the boat is anchored. The radar will sure show you the boat though. Your senses will not show you where the channel markers are when it's dark and foggy and you can barely see the bow.Now...as for the "Stand On", they call it "Stand On" and not "Right of Way" for a reason. You are expected to stay your course. If you turn and cause an accident because the other guy expecting you to stay your course, then you are going to pay for it. If it is very clear that the other guy isn't going to change, that's when you change course. The other guy might just be wanting to get close to you so he can chat and turn at the last second. Using the right wording helps others learn the real meaning of it.As for each person's local waters, you have to learn it but don't advertise it as global. Galveston bay's fishermen often leave the boat without a helmsman, especially during the week. I try to stay out of there way because it's their living, but I also try to follow the rules.

 

[Ross]

Franklin, In a dense fog it is probably best

just to remember that a turn to the starboard is less likely to get you in trouble than a turn to port. Also in dense fog you won't have much time to determine who is supposed to do what, with what, to whom. The old order of be quiet and listen still has merit. If you hear another vessel then make some noise, and then listen. A barking dog is always going to get somebody's attention. A wooden spoon on a steel kettle makes a racket. Your life jacket whistle is valid. But as Maine Sail said, you use ALL of the assets that you have.

 

[RAD]

One day

I plotted and made way points from the last buoy (which is already in my waypoint list)to my slip in the event that I do get caught in a fog I'll use my GPS to get in.Stop right there cause thats not going to work because the entrance to my marina and surrounding areas is very busy with lots of ferrys in and out and there equipped with radar to see you. Also one day last year while piloting a 40+ motor boat in pea soup with radar I could not believe the speed some of these knuckle head fishing boats were going! *yks I turned to the owner and said you wanna take the helm and he said your doing just fine this is to nerve racking for me.so I would use my shoal draft boat and get to an area not traveled by the ferrys and any one else and drop the hook and wait it out.BTWI like the cd idea,one less thing to do

 

[Steve G.]

Been there, done that...

... and lived to talk about it, even. While cruising into Eastern Bay in the Chesapeake, trying to put in to St. Michaels on Memorial Day weekend. We encountered a fog bank that dropped visibility to just about twice our waterline length. First operation was to drop and furl sails, start auxillary, idle slowly forward. The GPS at the helm was not acquiring a consistent signal, but we had a chart plotter below at the helm station. We donned life vests and whistles, an MOB strobe, got out the ditch bag, readied the EPIRB, and grabbed an air horn as well as an old fashioned mouth type horn that was my granddads. The boat was equipped with a bell and electric horn at the helm. I blasted fog signals at regular intervals from the bow with the mouth horn. The boat was also equipped with the cylinder type radar reflectors hoisted on pennant halyards whenever at sail.Oh, I forgot to mention that we were in the middle of the return leg of the Annapolis to St. Michaels regatta! Fortunately, we were headed up wind and many boats in the regatta were flying brightly colored spinnakers as they passed in the opposite direction! Boy, is a white hull and white sail hard to see verses a colored spinnaker or hull! Note to self- get hull painted bright red!I posted my wife at the helm with a small handheld radio, her best girlfriend at the nav station with a radio as well, and myself at the bow of the boat with a strobe, horn, whistle, flashlight, handheld radio, a handheld bearing compass and a flare gun. (good thing i did not fall overboard with all that gear in my pockets and around my neck). I was tethered to the jib halyard with a harness just in case I lost my footing. The purpose of me at the bow was to increase the visibility distance between our vessel and any approaching vessels or obstructions. We were sailing a 42 footer without radar and only had 80 to 100 feet of visibility. From the bow to the helm we lost at least 30 feet of visibility just due to boat length.The person at the nav station was working with paper charts, a chart plotting GPS and a cruising guide to identify waypoints as they approached. They would call out the way point or obstruction and it's approximately distance and bearing as it approached over the handheld, I would report back when I saw it come into view and the actual bearing and distance. The helmsman would hear this and was able to adjust heading if needed. When another boat became visible to the bowman, I would report it's heading and position to the helmsman, along with any course change needed. The helmsman was reading the depth guage and knotmeter readings to the nav station at periodic intervals to ensure that they were in keeping with the charts amd chartplotter info., and then she recorded them on paper and then plotted approximate position on the paper chart. There was no yelling! No panic! Just a little cautious banter as postion changes, depth readings and boat sitings were observed and passed on via the handheld radios.By the way, these are those inexpensive little Motorola radios that are available at any department store or marine supply store. We use them for anchoring and docking to eliminate the need to yell. That is the one thing I have learned from sailing with two women crewman frequently - NO YELLING!We made it safely to the harbor through some very heavy traffic, docked safely at our prearranged location, stepped ashore for a fine meal and enjoyed reliving the excitement of the day over cocktails and dinner. My treat of course for a much deserving crew!

 

[Franklin]

hmmmm

The wind is blowing 15 knots from the rear. Your doing 3 knots. You have your engine running. Visibility is 50 feet. Another sailor is doing 3 knots 30 degrees off your bearing but he is under sail alone and he isn't following the colregs because he doesn't know them. You have radar but have chosen to listen for noises instead of using the radar. You finally hear him...he is 75 feet away but you don't know that because you can't see him. While you are trying to figure out where he is, how fast he is going, which direction, you finally see him 20' from your boat. You turn sharply starboard. He turns sharply starboard. Smack...you blow your bow into his cockpit. Later you realize if you turned port you would have avoided him. You also realize that if neither turned at all he would have passed behind you. You also realized that 3+3=6 and at 6 knots, 20' notice isn't enough to react properly.Now if you were looking at your radar like you should have and gotten the benifit out of the money you spent, you would have seen him at least a mile away and tried to contact him by radio and/or changed course leaving lots of room for error and you would have passed without seeing or hearing him. I don't care how much experience you got, it doesn't give you a bionic ear. BTW: experience is worthless unless you made mistakes and/or had close calls during your experience. One doesn't learn much when everything is perfect. One could have sailed in fog every foggy day for 100 years and not learn anything if nobody else was around. One could learn a ton in just one experience. I've sailed in fog a couple of times here in the bay but didn't learn much from it and I could have sailed in that fog a 1,000 times without learning much either. It wasn't until I crossed the Mississippi Sound in total darkness and fog did I learn how helpful a GPS with chart plotter is and how I missed my radar. The GPS saved mine and my crew's life that night by safely getting us to a semi-safe place to drop the hook while doing 6 knots because we had to make it across before a storm blew in the next day. Taking on the VHF with the barges helped a lot too. As for noise...I couldn't even hear the barges until they were about 100 yards away at max and it was very difficult to determine distance, direction and speed, if at all and that's with me on the hook. I hardly believe I would hear a sailboat that night until it's too late unless they were blow a very loud horn. Even the barges weren't blowing any horns.So, if your logic doesn't make any sense to me, then I could care less how many years of experience you have, because it's not the quantity, it's the quality.

 

[Ross]

Franklin, I said that you should use ALL of your

assets. Either you are intent on picking a fight or you are lacking an "ets".

 

[Steve G.]

hmmmmm,

hmmmmm....Franklin,Hope your radar never goes on the fritz! Did I say in my post that I managed to navigate safely WITHOUT radar through maybe a hundred sailors in a regatta? Not many of whom were making any signals either visible or audible! I had the VHF on but an emergency situation involving a sailing vessel and a freighter was taking place on the radio. Not one to interrupt the USCG at work, I could only rely on visibility and hearing to determine location of other vessels. Thankfully I am equipped with a back-up GPS and VHF, as well as a complete complement of safety gear.Radar would have been a great help. But when that fails, not many boats are able to carry a spare! Seems you may rely too much on a single peice of equipment that by nature is prone to failure.If I had set the hook, I would have lost the ability to manuever against approaching vessels.Sometimes, the time honored tradition of posting a lookout and communicating with the crew is the best approach. My boat is now equipped with radar, and I have many years of experience utilizing radar as a charter captain. If available, I would use it! By all means use every tool in your arsenal!!! Just don't rely on any one of them too heavily as most electronic devices will eventually fail or require calibration to make them reliable.The manual mouth horn helped my grandfather and father through many fog banks. It, along with prudent seamanship also worked for me!

 

[Stu Jackson]

Seems like the notes on any chart

could be part of the answer to this unnecessary back-and-forth: don't rely on any one form of navigating. Use ALL the tools at your disposal. Seems that there are some fine ideas offered here by just about everyone, without arguing over the merits of one against the other. Very helpful ideas.

 

[Maine Sail]

Franklin you're...

Really making yourself look like quite absurd!Quote:"So, if your logic doesn't make any sense to me, then I could care less how many years of experience you have, because it's not the quantity, it's the quality. BTW: experience is worthless unless you made mistakes and/or had close calls during your experience. One doesn't learn much when everything is perfect. One could have sailed in fog every foggy day for 100 years and not learn anything if nobody else was around. One could learn a ton in just one experience."Truly spoken like someone with two days of fog experience. You are truly a "special" person....No I don't have a bionic ear but I do some fog tricks to entertain my crew. Sometimes I'll just point to a direction a boat is coming from, without using my radar, and a few minutes later there it is when they never even heard it. Sailboats under sail are not always quiet in the fog, contrary to what you want to believe, and someone else's halyards slap the mast with a different sound than mine do and the sound carries. The only reason I am good at this is because I've spent the time, and learned from it, how to isolate even minute sounds as they travel in the fog. You can't just expect to be good at this in "I've sailed a couple of times in the fog" or make assumptions because you don't get it. If you really believe that any boater who has spent 30+ years on the water has not learned anything or had no close calls then you need to see your shrink and up the meds.You have no credibility telling anyone how to navigate in the fog and telling them to rely solely on electronics is dangerous and you know it.I'm really glad your radar has never failed you because mine has a number of times and even though it was an easy fix or a minor problem it always seems to fail at the worst possible time so I try my best not to DEPEND on it. Now this does not mean I don't use it but if it fails me I'm still ok where according to you you're sh&t out of luck. Navigation in the fog without electronics my friend CAN be done and was done for years and years before the advent of either radar or GPS. As others and I have said you must rely on ALL the tools at your disposal!Franklin you may want to check out www.zyprexa.com it may help with your grandiosity issues...???

 

[Franklin]

stop misquoting me

I never said to rely totally on electronics. Just am saying that radar is the best tool to use in fog with a chart plotter as second best. But that's ok....your loosing your marbles anyway. I understand.Ross and Steve...I really wasn't commenting about your post much at all except that going with the idea that "turn to starboard" as something to teach is not all that practical. Turn away from contact would be better to teach.I'm done trying to teach old dogs new tricks. Thank god you don't sail in my waters!

 

[Nice N Easy]

Every situation

An interesting thread. Most seem to forget that every situation is different. Different parts of the country require different techniques. And each infividual is different. One thing I am sure of. To not use and depend on your radar because it might malfunction is like not sailing your boat because a hurricane might get you. I use any and all aids at my disposal. All the time. Radar and GPS are two that I rely on most. They are the most accessible, most reliable and easiest to use aids I have. All the backups and charts I have, but I still rely on the most dependable and most accurate I have, which is the radar and GPS.