Yes, It has been done. There was a I believe Westerly 32 at the Annapolis Boat Show that had all rope and with no turnbuckles, Basically tha same as in the older sailing ships. You might be able to google the boat show site and find the boat/dealer that did this. Most of the newer racing machines are PBO and yes, expensive. For your boat any of the lines you suggested will do.
Synthetic Standing Rigging
- Thread starter HEINZIR
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Wait. What? I have a cone of protection? I had no idea. (And all this time I've been avoiding sailing in thunderstorms.)
One of the things to consider beyond strength
is STRETCH. A friend put some amsteel on as lifelines and has been disappointed at the amount of simple stretch requiring constant retensioning. Doesn't sound too good for standing rigging...
is STRETCH. A friend put some amsteel on as lifelines and has been disappointed at the amount of simple stretch requiring constant retensioning. Doesn't sound too good for standing rigging...
Stu is absolutely correct w/r stretch. The 'best' (so far) in synthetics is Dyneema but it has ~3 times the elasticity of simple 1X19 wire. What would mean for standing rigging that the top of the mast will move/oscilate 3 times as much as with 1x19. eg.: StaSet-X has 15 times the 'stretch' of 1x19 wire.
Standing Rigging isnt ONLY to 'hold the mast up' ... with respect to the forestay/headstay its also responsible for SAIL SHAPE of the foresails. ALL headsails are especially cut/designed so that the sag of the fore/headstay under sail induced loads MATCHES the expected sag of the rigging/forestay; they are cut with a smooth curve at the luff to compensate for this expected and predictable forestay 'sag'. Since the best of exotic synthetics have three times the elongation under stress than 'wire' you will have to compensate by increased (3X) backstay, etc. tension to get the 'designed' sail shape ..... and the message here is that ***your chain plate attachment system may not be strong enough to support such additional loads*** !!!!!!!! So, if you put up synthetic standing rigging, including the fore/headstay, you will have include the cost of recutting the luff shape of all your jibs/genoas ... or if you dont you can expect very degraded performance (especially ability to 'point') from your headsails.
Dyneema and other exotics are also subject to 'creep' ... permanent elongation under constant stress .... so you will have to constantly 'chase' the tension values as the synthetic progresively changes length. Not a problem for use on running backstays, backstays with ample adjusters, etc.; but especially for the 'set and forget' wires, if you dont 'keep up' with the length changes, you will be experiencing 'looser and looser' rigging.
Presently the use of 'furlers' in which there is a lot of foil and drum contact with the wire rope would create bodaceous 'chafe' points on a synthetic ... and most synthetics cant handle 'chafe' and abrasion very well, at least not to the ability of wire.
The real benefits of the standing rig synthetics is in reduction of 'weight aloft' .... Ie.: on a boat with a 60 ft tall rig and a 6 ft deep (bulb) keel, every POUND of weight that you lessen in the standing rigging would equate to an increase of 5 lbs. of ballast (righting moment)...
Synthetics present true place due to their 'elasticity' still remains at dynamic bacskstays, running backstays, etc. Those who replace their wire rigging for synthetics will soon realize that their rig has become VERY 'stretchy' .... and their foresails have become VERY bad for 'going upwind' (unless 'recut').
Standing Rigging isnt ONLY to 'hold the mast up' ... with respect to the forestay/headstay its also responsible for SAIL SHAPE of the foresails. ALL headsails are especially cut/designed so that the sag of the fore/headstay under sail induced loads MATCHES the expected sag of the rigging/forestay; they are cut with a smooth curve at the luff to compensate for this expected and predictable forestay 'sag'. Since the best of exotic synthetics have three times the elongation under stress than 'wire' you will have to compensate by increased (3X) backstay, etc. tension to get the 'designed' sail shape ..... and the message here is that ***your chain plate attachment system may not be strong enough to support such additional loads*** !!!!!!!! So, if you put up synthetic standing rigging, including the fore/headstay, you will have include the cost of recutting the luff shape of all your jibs/genoas ... or if you dont you can expect very degraded performance (especially ability to 'point') from your headsails.
Dyneema and other exotics are also subject to 'creep' ... permanent elongation under constant stress .... so you will have to constantly 'chase' the tension values as the synthetic progresively changes length. Not a problem for use on running backstays, backstays with ample adjusters, etc.; but especially for the 'set and forget' wires, if you dont 'keep up' with the length changes, you will be experiencing 'looser and looser' rigging.
Presently the use of 'furlers' in which there is a lot of foil and drum contact with the wire rope would create bodaceous 'chafe' points on a synthetic ... and most synthetics cant handle 'chafe' and abrasion very well, at least not to the ability of wire.
The real benefits of the standing rig synthetics is in reduction of 'weight aloft' .... Ie.: on a boat with a 60 ft tall rig and a 6 ft deep (bulb) keel, every POUND of weight that you lessen in the standing rigging would equate to an increase of 5 lbs. of ballast (righting moment)...
Synthetics present true place due to their 'elasticity' still remains at dynamic bacskstays, running backstays, etc. Those who replace their wire rigging for synthetics will soon realize that their rig has become VERY 'stretchy' .... and their foresails have become VERY bad for 'going upwind' (unless 'recut').
with all of the strech and strength issues aside, what is the usful life of these synthethic materials vs SS. I would guess that very few boats have their standing rigging changed in the first 20 years of life. I suspect that synthetic rigging will be required to be changed every 2-3 years.
Not necessarily 2-3 years, but when the diameter physically shrinks down due to the 'creep' that WILL occur that changes the line's geometry. When the diameter begins to 'neck down', the Ultimate tensile strength diminishes in direct proportion. UV is what 'kills' the polymer lines, some are overlaid with a UV protective sheath. Only way to tell of UV destruction/degradation is to 'proof load' the line. The same 'proof loading' methodology can be done with stainless wire (but can be very dangerous if you dont what you are doing) as it assays the wire for remaining fatigue strength, remaining ductile strength and changes in length, etc.
- Jan 22, 2008
- 198
Stu is absolutely correct w/r stretch. The 'best' (so far) in synthetics is Dyneema but it has ~3 times the elasticity of simple 1X19 wire. What would mean for standing rigging that the top of the mast will move/oscilate 3 times as much as with 1x19. eg.: StaSet-X has 15 times the 'stretch' of 1x19 wire.
Standing Rigging isnt ONLY to 'hold the mast up' ... with respect to the forestay/headstay its also responsible for SAIL SHAPE of the foresails. ALL headsails are especially cut/designed so that the sag of the fore/headstay under sail induced loads MATCHES the expected sag of the rigging/forestay; they are cut with a smooth curve at the luff to compensate for this expected and predictable forestay 'sag'. Since the best of exotic synthetics have three times the elongation under stress than 'wire' you will have to compensate by increased (3X) backstay, etc. tension to get the 'designed' sail shape ..... and the message here is that ***your chain plate attachment system may not be strong enough to support such additional loads*** !!!!!!!! So, if you put up synthetic standing rigging, including the fore/headstay, you will have include the cost of recutting the luff shape of all your jibs/genoas ... or if you dont you can expect very degraded performance (especially ability to 'point') from your headsails.
Dyneema and other exotics are also subject to 'creep' ... permanent elongation under constant stress .... so you will have to constantly 'chase' the tension values as the synthetic progresively changes length. Not a problem for use on running backstays, backstays with ample adjusters, etc.; but especially for the 'set and forget' wires, if you dont 'keep up' with the length changes, you will be experiencing 'looser and looser' rigging.
Presently the use of 'furlers' in which there is a lot of foil and drum contact with the wire rope would create bodaceous 'chafe' points on a synthetic ... and most synthetics cant handle 'chafe' and abrasion very well, at least not to the ability of wire.
Thanks Rich and everyone else for your comments.
I have decided to go with Rich's advice and use the synthetic line only for my "dynamic" standing rigging: the permanent split backstay, which has a 6:1 tackle adjustment on one leg, and the running backstays which have 4:1 tackles for adjustment.
Neither the backstay nor the runners are essential to keeping the mast from collapsing. My spreaders are swept back and both the upper and lower shrouds attach to the boat well aft of the mast. There is no way it could topple forward even without the backstay. I added the running backstays to counteract and help tension the inner forestay. The mast itself is well supported without them. So I feel I can experiment with these without jeopardizing the integrity of the rig. Remember also that we are talking about a small trailerable boat that weighs less than 3000 lbs. The stresses on the rigging are orders of magnitude less than they would be on a larger boat.
The shrouds and forestays on my boat are 5/32" wire. I will keep them as is. The backstay and runners are 1/8" wire. This has a published tensile strength of 2200 lb. 1/8" Amsteel Blue has a strength of 2500 lb. My instinct is to go up one size to 5/32" but I found such a good deal on 3/16" Amsteel Blue that I can't pass it up. I can replace both runners and the backstay for under $40, including the thimbles! 3/16" has a tensile strength of 5400 lb, more than twice as much as the existing wire. Other than slightly increased windage, do you see any problems with going oversized to this extent? The line and thimbles are thin enough to fit my tangs easily.
The main reason I want to replace these stays with line has nothing to do with strength, although what I am proposing to use is more than twice as strong as the existing wire. The weight difference on my small boat would be negligible. I just think fiber runners would greatly reduce chafe on the mainsail when eased. And a synthetic backstay, along with the runners, will be much less of a pain to coil and secure when the mast is lowered for trailering or for passing under a bridge.
Henry -
I agree with what you stated. The plus for a trailerable boat is you wont have a 'difficult to coil' backstay when trailering!
Other - your boat is cutter rigged and when rigged with wire the forestay/headstay 'compete' with the backstay backstay and the loading from one stay always 'goes into the other stay' when sailing upwind. This leaves the 'wrong' stay loaded during the 'sharing of the sail loads'. What happens is that the staysail which doesnt 'draw' much when going upwind has an overtight forestay and in reaction the headstay loosens. The result of all this that you have diminished ability to 'point' because the headstay automatically loosens and automatically changes the angle of attack for the headsail. So, here is one place that 'synthetics' can actually help with standing rigging and my suggestion is: shorten the forestay wire and connect a synthetic as a 'tail' for the forestay at the bottom/tack, run the synthetic through a very stout block pinned to the deck (and with proper 'support' to hold the block fast to the deck, etc.), run the synthetic 'tail' all the way back to the cockpit to a winch/cleat. When pointing, release tension in the forestay (the shroud that the staysail is attached) which will cause the headstay and headsail luff to become 'straighter' and without 'sag' ...... and your boat should then ***point like a banshee***.
The reason that most cutters cant 'point' is that the headstay is typically loose when beating because the forestay becomes too tight and automatically loosens the headstay. Using a synthetic 'tail' on the bottom end of that stay would allow the 'system' to use a block (wire cant turn well on blocks) and you could then dynamically tension the forestay (from the cockpit).
I agree with what you stated. The plus for a trailerable boat is you wont have a 'difficult to coil' backstay when trailering!
Other - your boat is cutter rigged and when rigged with wire the forestay/headstay 'compete' with the backstay backstay and the loading from one stay always 'goes into the other stay' when sailing upwind. This leaves the 'wrong' stay loaded during the 'sharing of the sail loads'. What happens is that the staysail which doesnt 'draw' much when going upwind has an overtight forestay and in reaction the headstay loosens. The result of all this that you have diminished ability to 'point' because the headstay automatically loosens and automatically changes the angle of attack for the headsail. So, here is one place that 'synthetics' can actually help with standing rigging and my suggestion is: shorten the forestay wire and connect a synthetic as a 'tail' for the forestay at the bottom/tack, run the synthetic through a very stout block pinned to the deck (and with proper 'support' to hold the block fast to the deck, etc.), run the synthetic 'tail' all the way back to the cockpit to a winch/cleat. When pointing, release tension in the forestay (the shroud that the staysail is attached) which will cause the headstay and headsail luff to become 'straighter' and without 'sag' ...... and your boat should then ***point like a banshee***.
The reason that most cutters cant 'point' is that the headstay is typically loose when beating because the forestay becomes too tight and automatically loosens the headstay. Using a synthetic 'tail' on the bottom end of that stay would allow the 'system' to use a block (wire cant turn well on blocks) and you could then dynamically tension the forestay (from the cockpit).
- Jan 22, 2008
- 198
Thanks Rich,
I'm not sure I fully understand what you are saying. Would not tensioning the back stay and easing the runners accomplish the same thing? But then doesn't that defeat the purpose of the running backstays? I'm leary of messing with the forestay as I consider this the "primary" stay for keeping the mast up. I did at one time shorten my headstay and replace the turnbuckle with a 6:1 tackle, primarily to ease raising or lowering the mast for trailering. I found I couldn't get enough tension with just the tackle and ended up abandoning that idea. (My boat and sails are small enough that I don't have any winches.) I went back to a standard turnbuckle.
My jib is actually slightly smaller than my staysail; I think the staysail does most of the work. I do have a large drifter to replace the jib for light air.
Attached is a description of my boat, which I have modified considerably. In the original configuration both forestays attached to the mast very close to each other, 7' down from the top, as do the upper shrouds. The mast is only 28' long, leaving the top 25% unsupported from side to side. I moved the outer forestay (headstay) to the masthead in order to open the slot between the sails and to allow larger sails to be flown in light air. This required moving the upper shrouds to the top of the mast for side support. That entailed raising the spreaders and lower shrouds as well. In the original configuration, the aft-swept upper shrouds counteracted the pull of the inner forestay. In the new configuration I added running backstays for this purpose. In practice, I usually leave them clipped to the orgiinal chainplates where they are out of the way for normal sailing and serve as intermediate stays. I move them back to padeyes at the cockpit for heavy air. They can also be moved forward to padeyes in line with the mast tabernacle where they serve as baby stays to keep the mast from falling over when it is being raised or lowered.
Chiquita actually points quite well. She won't go downwind worth a darn but excels upwind and absolutely screams on a reach. She outsails practically every other more "modern" styled boat of her vintage (early 70s) in her size range and many much larger. I've owned her (or she has owned me) for over 30 years and she is still a work in progress.
No !!! the backstay and/or runners will simultaneously load the headstay/forestay ..... in total contrast, independently loosening the forestay will automatically tighten the headstay - because they BOTH REACT with the backstay (or runners). Next time out, loosen the forestay and see how much better the boat will be able to point with staysl AND topsail flying .... no need to change backstay (or runner) tension.
- Jan 22, 2008
- 198
OK, I'll try it! Won't be until the end of May, though. There is the little matter of 4' of ice that will be covering my lake shortly!:cry:
interesting discussion. it would be nice not to have to worry about kinking the wire stays when raising and lowering the mast. you say the stretch is about the same. how about the expansion/contration with changes in temperature?
Yes but we are now comparing apples to oranges.
Amsteel/synthetics are petroleum based materials that are sythesized from an OIL, crude oil. Their superiority is gained from patented trade secrets/methods of refinement issues. Hemp rope is made from the fibers of the hemp plant not hemp OIL which has been likewise refined.
To have a fair contest, we need to try HEMP oil applying the same methods as have been developed for crude oil refinement.
Do that and we will all see, hemp is superior by far.
Save the fibers and use them to make fiberhemp and make hulls that are 1/2 the weight of fiberglass hulls
All of the hemp rope conveniently on the market is manila hemp which isn't really hemp at all. Hemp oil is derived from cannabis seed (not marijauna)
Actually, I believe cannabis is the strain of hemp that is used for cordage. It is the best "strain" of hemp for the purpose. But these are issues the farmer would know more about.
My point is that comparing hemp rope with synthetics is not that simple. Hemp OIL should be substituted for the crude oil and refined likewise and THEN we can compare the two. The technology has not been exploited and applied to the hemp oil yet.
And yes, the "marijuana" plant is totally useless for rope for one plus they produce no oil. The oil is extracted from the seeds, which "pot", for the most part, do not produce. Good "pot" comes from the female "virgins" which are kept from the males so they produce no seeds which produces/retains more THC to the plant...or something like that.
Point is that the hemp plant is the most powerful plant in God's kingdom yet is suppressed meaning "top of the line synthetics" are still only second best.
Sorry to get off topic OP.
I am re-rigging a Boston Whaler Harpoon 5.2 I just bought.
I have some Amsteel Blue 3/16 and want to do all the standing rigging with it.
Has anyone considered heat-stretching like they do to Dux? My understanding is that it is just Amsteel that has been pre-heat-stretched. My idea is to make a steam oven using my pressure cooker hooked to a pvc pipe. Line will go through pipe under tension while the steam is piped into the pipe, hopefully heat-setting the "creep" out of the line.
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