swing keel concerns

Stu Jackson · Apr 3, 2007

Try the C22 Association website

they have the answers with over 20 years of experience in that particular boat

Michael · Apr 3, 2007

I'd jack it up on the trailer

I've done this on my boat and the easiest (really) way is to just jack up the stern and put some blocks of wood between the hull and the bunk boards on the trailer for support while you work on the cable (safety first!!!. You don't have to lift the boat all that high to let the keel down just enough to inspect or disconnect the cable. I used a bottle jack to lift mine. Just be sure to use a big piece of wood against the hull above the jack so that you don't crack the fiberglass. Do a little pushing on the hull and you'll find the most solid points to lift from.

watercolors · Apr 4, 2007

Keel down no problems

If your mooring is deep enough for the keel then you need not worry about sinking when you are not there, because of the cable . If your mooring is not deep enough, then keeping the keel hanging on its cable would be a concern about a lot of things. The boat was designed for the keel to be in the down position and the ability to raise it, is only for trailering, not sitting in the water. Every effort should be made to have a mooring deep enough for the keel!

dan c · Apr 4, 2007

hadn't thought of it

i have fallen into the trap that many must. instead of thinking that a swing keel can just be an advantage raised to reduce drag sailing downwind, i see it as something that must be lowered once you've cut engines and are about to sail. Hope every one will forgive me. I'm still learning, only had her out on water four weekends last year. boat will be in a marina this year. not sure of the depth of my slip yet. dunno which one i'll have. thank you for everyone's input.

Bilbo · Apr 4, 2007

Sk Check

I would probably get it off the trailer to check the keel because some trailer don't have enough room underneath to check the keel fittings with the cross beam supports in the way. You can go to a marina and pay for the service there. You can prop it up on supports and drop the keel. There are various ways of doing this. I used 2 walls of cement blocks. because they were available. One was at the stern and the other a bit in front of the keel. The keel can be dropped carefully with a keel support and a set of 4 threaded rods that are used to replace the bolts one by one. You want to check and replace the bolts use loctite when replacing. You also want to chack the hangers, the keel hole and the pivot pin for wear. If you check various web sites on the project, such as links from Catalina Association or from Chip Ford's site you can see how it can be done safely. I dock our C-22 and keep my keel mostly up because the water level is at about 4 1/2-5ft but it can changeat the whims of nature and the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers. Combine a lower water level with waves or wakes and the keel can get into the mud. I don't want that. So, I have to check the keel Pivot Assy. sometimes for wear as well as the cable equipment. Another issue with this keel is that it can get damaged right on the trailer. If the boat shifts on the bunks or if the keel is just hanging free and not lowered to the keel roller, it puts a strain on the bolts.Aside from maintenance issues, the swing keel is a good idea for launching, getting into the shallower areas and for downwind.

David T. · Apr 6, 2007

more advice

Dan,My keel cable is easily accessible on the trailer. Yours may be, too. I have a picture of mine at:http://dumbo.torrisi.org/gallery/Details/dscf0491Michael is right in that you can use a jack and a piece of 4x4 to lift the boat. You can place the wood at the aft end of the keel slot and lift the back of the boat up 2-8 inches. It's safest to put blocks between the boat and the bunks before working on things. Jacks slip and fail. You can also set the stern on a 55 gal drum. Hope that helps!Davidwww.c22region10.org another great forum!

Bilbo · Apr 8, 2007

David

This is good for the cable but how far does one need to jack up the boat on the trailer to inspect the front keel hangers, the keel hole and the pivot pin?

watercolors · Apr 9, 2007

Keep it down

The information youÕve talked about so far is info that does not pertain to your boat. The idea of raising the keel for down wind or motoring is to reduce the wetted surface of the hull and keel. which causes friction when trying to propel the boat forward. Many boats with keels that Òretract up into the hullÓ can achieve this reduced wetted surface. The Catalina 22Õs keel does not become hidden from view when up in the trailering position, just a little of the top front edge is above the bottom level of the hull. The top end of the keel, the part in front of the keel bolt is now exposed. When in the ÒdownÓ position, this area in front of the bolt is ÒretractedÓ up inside the hull, actually reducing the wetted surface that you see.3 friends, 3 boats, 3 keel problems; Merrit 22, very fast boat, very efficient keel, 700 lbs, takes 2 men and a boy to retract up into the hull for trailering. Hits dock maybe a bit hard, 700 lb keel wants to keep on moving, crushes front of keel trunk and takes on water.Macgreger 26, about Õ88, retractable fiberglass center board designed to break and purchase replacement. Gets tired of replacing and has solid one built. Hits something, jambs new center board into keel trunk, can not get onto trailer, finishes destroying keel trunk trying to remove.Ô78 Balboa 26, very nice boat, very fast, can handle all conditions, swing keel that actually swings up into the hull and a set of doors that come down and close off the slot in the bottom of the hull for a smooth surface, wow!. Has cable too loose, hits stump under motor Keel slides up and over top, slams back down with bottom going further forward and top coming back and destroying this fancy keel slot. Young son says ÒDad I never ever though I would say this, we're going down.Ó Cabin floor and settee had to be cut out to do the repairs.moral of the stories.Catalina has the best keel system (only boat built for over 30 years).Keep keel down at all times except for trailering. Keep just a little tension on keel cable (listen to the hum).Use this site for information about your boat (about dozen very very knowledgeable fellows here).

Campy · Apr 16, 2007

Keel cable

I'd like to add to the keel cable discussion.I kept my boat in the water (Puget Sound, WA) for the past 11 months. I kept the keel down for much of the time the boat was in the water. The only problem I "suffered" was heavy growth of mussels and seawead on the keel cable. And due to the fact that I neglected to treat the following edge of the keel and the keel trunk with bottom paint (painted the bottom while on the trailer) had barnacles and mussels in the keel trunk. Had to use an old wood saw to "cut" all the growth out from between the keel and trunk. Stinky stinky stinky job when done three weeks after pulling the boat out.My suggestion would be to keep the keel moving. Cycle it up and down at least once a month. It's probably better to cycle the keel up and down every other week or more. The other lesson would be not to forget to bottom paint you keel trunk and add a zink to the keel as well. Campy"Windsocket" Hull #2226

Bilbo · Apr 16, 2007

Some comments on those experiences.

Hi, I thought that the experiences that Watercolors describes are good examples of problems that people can have with boats but aren't always great issues with Catalina 22s. NOt to disagree with his related experiences. The first one Merit 22 with the "600 lb" keel and the dock. Merit keel is not a swing keel. It drops in like a daggerboard but is helped with a block and tackle. I could see where hitting a dock at good speed could cause this problem if the keel trunk isn't strong enough. Moral: Don't run into any docks with any boat. Know your boat and the weather/wind conditions. Even if you shut off the power/sails in a no-wind dockage A Catalina 22 can drift a good dozen yards before slowing to a stop. Better to dock the boat with sails down and engine running to control the speed. FTR: The C-22 keel weighs in at about 550 lbs. The boat weighs a tad more than the much rarer Merit 22.Macgregor 26 and centerboard: With the Catalina 22, a good reason to have the swing keel feature is that if your boat goes shallow (5' or less) and you ground out, you can raise the keel a bit and float off. Stump and Balboa 26:If this happens with a Catalina 22 and the boat doesn't hang on the stump there is no way that you can stop it from happening. There is a keel lockdown pin that is not strong enough to prevent to keel from pivoting if it is inclined to do so. From what I've heard, if the keel wants to swing, the lockdown bolt won't stop it. It also will not prevent you from winching up the keel if you forget to loosen it. It will just bend and cut a divot in the keel. Campy has a good suggestion, to keep the cable moving. I would also add, inspect the cable regularly and pay attention as you raise and lower the keel. Pay attention to the feel and the sounds as you winch. anything out of the ordinary should be checked out. As Watercolors wrote, the cable will hum if it's taught ahd the keel is down. This is normal. It will change pitch and loudness with speed. It may even sound as if the hum is coming from forward and underneath the compression post of the mast becasue the keel will transfer the vibrations. You can stop the hum by slightly loosening the cable when the keel is down. The choice of using the keel lockdown bolt while sailing is a good source of discussion but another idea for using it may be to tighten the keel lockdown bolt while at the marina (keel up or down) because it will cut down on the keel wear as the boat rocks at the dock/mooring. Just remember to loosen it when you winch the keel. As far as sailing downwind and raising the keel. I have not bothered to do this yet but I'd say that the reasoning for raising it is that the forward wetted surface determines most of drag and when the keel is up, about 1/3 of this forward surface is removed. On the other hand if you forget and leave the keel up in heavier winds and full sails, when you decide to change to a beam reach you are probably going to go over and you'd wish the keel was down.

Aldo · Apr 19, 2007

More Swing Keel Thoughts

I haven't read a discussion this good on this forum for quite a while. I just have a few things to comment on:Bilbo, do you really use Loctite on your keel hangar bolts? I would be more inclined to use anti-sieze. I have replaced my keel bolts, and do check the tightness of them each spring, before I put my boat into the water for the summer.I don't think that there is any advantage to pulling the keel up when running. We checked this with our GPS once and determined that it wasn't worth the risk. Another time we were sailing on the Patuxent River and passing another C-22. They pulled up their keel and we continued to pass them with no problem. I think that the weight of what is carried on the boat is more important than whether the keel is up or down. My boat has a sticker on it near the keel winch that states that the keel should be down when sailing. I belive that that is a good idea.One time we hit something hard with our keel while motoring. It must have been a pipe or something like that on the Patapsco near Baltimore. I couldn't believe that the boat took that punishment the way that it did, and I never found a scratch on the keel. I've said many times that my C-22 can take more than I can take. I have written many times on this forum about the importance of attaching zincs to the keel to prevent galvanic corrosion. We keep our boat in brackish water. I have 2 sets of domed, "rudder", type zincs on the keel, they are about 2 inches in diameter. I replace one of the 2 sets each year. They do corrode, so they are doing something. There are many dissimilar metals involved in the keel system of the C-22, silicon bronze, bronze, stainless steel, and cast iron. Whenever you have dissimilar metals together near saltwater they are forcing corrosion to take place. I think that many people think that parts of the keel system are wearing, when they are actually being eaten away by galvanic corrosion. I think that it mentions attaching zincs to the keel in the manuals that came with your C-22. As I said, I have written about this many times, but I don't think that many people understand, or believe this.Aldo

Bilbo · Apr 19, 2007

Aldo

"Bilbo, do you really use Loctite on your keel hangar bolts? "I did because that hs what was on the instructions from CD. The Loc-tite came with the bolts. http://www.catalinadirect.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=235"I have written many times on this forum about the importance of attaching zincs to the keel to prevent galvanic corrosion. We keep our boat in brackish water."Aldo, do yu think that this is less important in fresh water lakes?As for keeping the keel down, I do that unless I'm motoring and the sails are down.

Ken · Apr 19, 2007

Loc-Tite

Loc-tite has two purposes, one to hold or lock the other is lubrication, I've always used blue Loc-tite on my keel bolts. I don't however buy the pretreat, if you read the spec sheet you will see its nearly all acetone, just too easy to clean the bolts using the gallon can I have.

Bilbo · Apr 19, 2007

Buy?

That may be true Ken But the pre-treat and the blue Loctite comes with either the hanger bolts kit or the keel hanger casting kit. They really don't give you a choice to buy the pre treat when you buy the bolts from the CD store.

Ken · Apr 19, 2007

WM

Bilbo,I made a deal with the local WM store, bought a bag of bolts for the keel for less than half there regular price. There is somethings I will buy from CD but they are not my go to chandlery... Getting stiffed on shipping every time gets old fast!

Bilbo · Apr 20, 2007

I agree

Ken, I often use WM and I have even just used this forum's place for some nifty replacement LEDS for the nav lights. I think that as I get used to the different specs of the equipment I will be more likely to shop around more but in that instance, I didn't have the exact bolt size when I ordered from CD. Our boat is about 25 min. away and WM is too. I don't mind our WM but it is often not exactly well stocked and I end up making two trips.

Aldo · Apr 23, 2007

Bilbo

Bilbo: Over the weekend I saw that the blue Loctite is medium strength, and I think that that is probably about right for the keel bolts. My worry was, of course, that the bolts would get stuck, but with the anti-sieze that I have been using, they do loosen a little year to year. I'll probably loctite them in when I'm working on my keel in a few weeks. I have bought replacement bolts from Catalina Direct, but it's been several years, and at that time they didn't sell them with the Loctite. Do they still tell you the torque to torque the bolts to? On the issue zincs and "Aldo, do yu think that this is less important in fresh water lakes?" I actually did think that it was less important in fresh water. Salt in the water makes it more conductive than fresh water. But I learned something on this issue when looking at my West Marine 2007 catalog. It had an article recommending magnesium anodes for fresh water, because they corrode faster, and protect better than zinc for fresh water. The article also recommended aluminum anodes for brackish water. I never heard of either magnesium or aluminum anodes before. I didn't see either of them in their catalog, but I'm not really done looking yet. Before I switch from zinc to aluminum, I'll probably test a set of aluminum in addition to a set of zinc anodes. On my comment about keeping the keel down when running, it was a comment to the fourm in general, and not directed toward you. I hope that it didn't seem offensive.Aldo

Bilbo · Apr 23, 2007

Aldo

No problem for the swing keel suggestions. As a matter of fact my big issue is that our boat is docked in about a mean of 4.5' of water. The USACofE can change this at any whim so I have to leave the keel up. AS a person who has become aware that he makes mistekes, I would not raise the keel while going downwind because if I changed course and forgot to lower it first, I would probably end up swimming towards the part of my mast that isn't submerged. Not my plan. so when I wrote, "As for keeping the keel down, I do that unless I'm motoring and the sails are down." I was being honest. BTW motoring slowly on a hot windless day is a great way to enjoy the lake. Uses very little gas and provides a fine little breeze. While looking at the keel, I noticed that the fairing of the keel is only setup for it being down. WIth the keel raised, the leading edge isn't a good hydrodynamic shape. So any gain from less frontal surface is lost some in the friction. I can see where raising it would be a waste of time. It would probably be more important to make sure that when the keel is down, there is no sideplay that would diminish the counterweighting that goes on in a good healing moment. Keel bolts:www.c22pdx.orghas some tech pages which say:Written by Dale Mack:For years I've blissfully torqued my keel bolts to 30 ft/lbs secure in the knowledge I was following the advice of Catalina Yachts. Then in 2006 while monitoring one of the C22 discussion groups I follow, that sense of security evaporated when folks started sharing their opinions on the topic.First for a little background. Back in 1996, Lowell Richardson, owner of Catalina Direct (a mail order business Lowell started to augment his Catalina Yachts Dealership) responded online to a new owner's question about "How tight should the keel bolts be?". Lowell's answer was:"The torque that Catalina recommends for a Catalina 22 keel bolt is 30 foot/pounds. Be sure that a torque wrench is used to check the bolts. Be cautious to not over tighten. Stainless can be sheared off by a surprisingly small amount of torque. If you check the keel bolts a couple of times a year by simply tightening them a bit each time, you WILL break them off. Use a torque wrench and tighten to 30 foot pounds only. Replace the keel bolts every few years... They're cheap!"The 2006 online discussion of the topic focused on what the torque value tables recommend for 316 stainless steel 5/16" bolts. All the online references gave the same answer which was that the correct torque value was 138 in./lbs. or 11.5 ft./lbs. Here are a couple of those references: http://www.thelenchannel.com/1torque.php http://www.marfas.com/Ttorque.shtmlI was shocked to find out that I had been applying almost three times the recommended torque value for a 5/16" stainless steel bolt. Another participant in the discussion pulled up an old email from Skip Meisch up near Seattle replying to the same question. Skip's comments were: "The keel bolts have almost an inch of thread engaged in the "weldment" nut. That is a lot of gripping power. If you use Loctite [blue Loctite 242] or some other similar product, it will help the bolt hold and it will help keep the bolt from "freezing" up in the threads. As I said before, I use 20 foot pounds for my bolts. Others use even less torque. The 30 foot pounds (recommended in one of the old owners manuals) is an incredible amount of torque for a 5/16" stainless bolt. The first time I tried to torque one to 25 ft/lbs it scared me enough that I replaced the bolt and then stopped at 20 ft/lbs."So what did I do on Crocus? I went the 20 ft./lbs route with new bolts and washers backed up with Loctite 242. I know it's more than the tables recommend, but it less than what I was using. In the end you have to make your own call on how you want to balance your concern for losing a bolt from having it vibrate itself out against the risk of shearing one off. Dale Mack"~BilboN.E. Ohio

Aldo · Apr 24, 2007

Thanks again Bilbo

Bilbo: Thanks for your reply. I think that the swing keel on a C-22 is one of it's best features. We have some model radio controlled sailboats, Victoria's, and they have lead bulbs at the bottom of their keels. To me, this is the ultimate keel design. On a Catalina 22, what Frank Butler did was make the bottom of the keel much thicker than the top. This is a compromise that gives good righting moment by keeping much of the weight low, but still allows it to be a swing keel. We had friends who had a Chrysler 22 about 25 years ago, and the keel on the Chrysler was the opposite, with a thick top and thin bottom. The first time my wife and I stepped onto the boat we couldn't believe how much our weight (and we were way lighter then than we are now) made the boat heel. (The Chrysler also had a much rounder hull). You must have known exactly what I was thinking when I asked about the torque for the SS keel bolts. I use a torque wrench all the time, and when I was tightening the bolts to the keel the last time I bought them from CD, I couldn't beleive the specified 30 foot-lb torque. Thanks again for your thoughtful reply. The theory of screws is that they are suppose to be stretched, like springs, but I knew that 30 foot-lbs felt too high. I'm sure that I will replace mine now and sleep better at anchor.Thanks again, Aldo

swing keel concerns

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