Swapping fin keel for wing keel....????

Oct 29, 2019
10
Catalina 320 Ft Myers
How much of a PIA would it be to remove a fin keel and install a wing keel, if i find a boat with everything on it I’m looking for except the shallow keel? Thinking on a 1994 or newer Catalina 320. I found the semi “perfect boat” close to home but it’s missing one desire, a wing keel. It has everything else even a price close to my ballpark. I’m figuring that the hardest part will be locating the part needed. I’ve seen a couple you tube videos of sailors pulling their keel for repairs and reinstalling them so it can be done. The videos were not Catalina boats. How is the joint between the keel and hull finished ? Will it require redoing the entire bottom finish to do the job correctly? I’m guessing the keels and bolts from a generation’s years will fit perfectly
 
Jun 7, 2016
315
Catalina C30 Warwick, RI
The procedure is doable with a travel lift, a grinder and plenty of 5200. But the cost and availability to source another keel would be huge. Raw lead right now costs approx. $1 per pound (that figure is from a 30 second google search so don't hold me to it) There are places like one in Providence RI that makes and repairs keels but it is going to cost a lot more then $1 per pound to get the raw lead shaped into a keel.

There is always swapping keels with another boat but good luck finding someone with the identical boat that wants the exact opposite that you do. I'd say live with the boat you can find with a deeper keel or keep looking and compromise somewhere else.
 
Jan 11, 2014
11,324
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
How much of a PIA would it be to remove a fin keel and install a wing keel, if i find a boat with everything on it I’m looking for except the shallow keel?
A lot. First you have to have a way to support the boat several inches above the level of the keel to let the keelboats clear the hull. Then you have to split the keel/hull joint which is often done with 5200, aka, the Devil's Glue. Then it needs to be cleaned up. A very heavy and large chunk of lead has to be moved from under the boat while the boat is suspended. Installing a new keel means reversing the process.

it’s missing one desire, a wing keel.
Be careful what you wish for. The advantage to wing keels (and I have one) is the shallower draft. The big disadvantage is running aground, they are more difficult to refloat because you can not heel the boat and drag it off the sand bar, it has to be pulled backwards through the sand.

How is the joint between the keel and hull finished ? Will it require redoing the entire bottom finish to do the job correctly?
The sort of standard approach is to put gobs of 5200 on the keel, lower the boat on to the keel and torque the nuts to spec. The whole bottom will not need to be redone, just the area around keel/hull joint.

I’m guessing the keels and bolts from a generation’s years will fit perfectly
Don't count on it. The holes may be close, but sailboat building is not that precise. Typically the bolts are set in the molten lead using a template, but lead keel casting is not that precise and the bolts may be off a little bit. The holes in the boat are drilled to match the keel bolts as the keel comes from the foundry. And then there is the alignment issue. The centerline of the keel needs to match the centerline of the boat or the sailing performance will be a bit (or a lot) funky.

So, to answer your question, yes it can be done. It is not cheap, easy, or something a DIYer can easily do.
 
Jan 22, 2008
8,050
Beneteau 323 Annapolis MD
It has been a long time ago, but IIRC... someone used a chain saw to cut off about 10 inches of the (lead?) keel . The bottom of the keel was traced onto paper and sent to a keel company to make two wings. Probably used the cut-off lead? The two wings were thru-bulted thru the keel and each other. I think MARS Metal was the keel company?
 
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Jul 23, 2018
41
hunter 31 aquia
The procedure that Ron20324 describes is not uncommon. You actually have to add more to your wings or bulb than you took off the original keel. Since the ballast has a shorter lever arm, it must weigh more to provide the same stability. Wing keelers carry more ballast than fin keelers.
 

reworb

.
Apr 22, 2011
234
Beneteau 311 Ft Myers Beach
Before I moved from California to Florida I had it done on my 28MKII. It was done by a yard in Oxnard California, they unbolted the old keel and installed the new one, no damage was done to the boat bottom. I don't remember the cost as I had it done in 2005 they did give me credit for the lead in the old keel. Perhaps if you called the Catalina factory in St Pete they maybe able to suggest a source for the parts. In the old days Catalina made their own keels, don't know if that's still the case.

As an important aside depending on where you keep the boat (in Ft Myers) a fin keel could limit your use of the boat here.
 
Jan 11, 2014
11,324
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
It has been a long time ago, but IIRC... someone used a chain saw to cut off about 10 inches of the (lead?) keel . The bottom of the keel was traced onto paper and sent to a keel company to make two wings. Probably used the cut-off lead? The two wings were thru-bulted thru the keel and each other. I think MARS Metal was the keel company?
Mars Metals outside of Toronto, Ontario does this. It is not inexpensive. A while back I investigated doing this on a boat I was considering. The cost then was north of $10K US.

Keel Draft Reductions | MarsKeel | Production Lead Keels for the sailboat Industry
 
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Jun 8, 2004
10,027
-na -NA Anywhere USA
First this is a job for an experienced person with help to include a travel lift. Otherwise I fear for you life. Secondly we do not know what material your fin keel is as generally you can trade in lead easily. Then there is the issue of keel bolts aligning and the list goes on. Also I question a combination of lead and iron. Sugggest you call Gerry Douglas at Catalina in Florida if doable. Many costs invoked to include yard an freight. Sometimes this could be more expensive than the boat is worth so I suggest calculating all the costs before doing that. Call Gerry Douglas first at Catalina to see if available a wing keel and bolt pattern plus style material. Then who makes it.
Former Catalina dealer now retired
 
Dec 14, 2003
1,393
Hunter 34 Lake of Two Mountains, QC, Can
Back in 2000 I had exactly the same issue. I had found the perfect Hunter 34 for me except for the 5'6'' draft fin keel. I enquired with Mars Metal to cut it (and we're talking cast iron keel) install their bulbs. Doable yes but by professionals and I had to find someone to have the existing keel cut professionnally. Cost back then was $12 000 ! So my advice is keep looking. I did and a few months later eventually found a Hunter 34 with a 4'3'' draft. Boats come on the market all the time and you will find the right one where the one or two things that you don't care for will be easy to fix or replace ! Good luck.
 
Oct 29, 2019
10
Catalina 320 Ft Myers
Ok i appreciate all of the information here. I’m now tempted to do a keel-ectamy...... someone mentioned about cutting the led keel with a chainsaw and adding a bulb or wing to its bottom.
Has anyone seen the you tube channel “ Acorn to arubella, where they are building a wood sailboat from scratch? They actually poured their own lead keel! Holy pooper Batman !!
 
Jan 11, 2014
11,324
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
Ok i appreciate all of the information here. I’m now tempted to do a keel-ectamy...
Did I read this correctly? Really, you are going to try and do this yourself? Do you have your own travel lift? Alix and Steve started with something very different. There was no boat on top of the keel. They poured the keel and then built the boat on top of it.

Redesigning a keel is not something for amateurs. You do realize that you will be moving 4,000 lbs of lead. with 7,000 lbs of boat sitting above it?
 
Oct 29, 2019
10
Catalina 320 Ft Myers
If I’m told i can’t do something, or shouldn’t do something, i research the hell out of it and do it! That’s me nature...... so let’s say i get a friggin crazy deal on a C320 because maybe the owners are divorcing or just hit the lotto, or who knows, i just talk them loooooooow, but the beautiful sloop has a gosh darn giant boner of a keel, not good for the skinny water of SWFlorida.
With all of the hurricane damaged boats, there has to be a wing keel for cheap somewhere. I just gotta burn the midnight oil and find it.
Someone mentioned about getting grounded with the wing keel, no heeling over. Well, I’ve already thought of that one night after a few cold beers and just figured that i will keep a winch, like the ones we put on off road jeeps down here, just do a recovery like we do to jeeps when someone gets way in over their head. At least try to winch myself out, backwards is logical, until Tow boat arrives. I build offroad jeeps for a hobby. I had winches front and rear because i like to go out and adventure single handed. I keep a medium-large boat anchor handy to use as an anchor point if I’m riding in sand. That should work for a boat in an emergency i would think.
 
Oct 29, 2019
10
Catalina 320 Ft Myers
Did I read this correctly? Really, you are going to try and do this yourself? Do you have your own travel lift? Alix and Steve started with something very different. There was no boat on top of the keel. They poured the keel and then built the boat on top of it.

Redesigning a keel is not something for amateurs. You do realize that you will be moving 4,000 lbs of lead. with 7,000 lbs of boat sitting above it?
I would imagine doing this type of work in a local boat yard with a lift.
 
Oct 29, 2019
10
Catalina 320 Ft Myers
I would imagine doing this type of work in a local boat yard with a lift.
I have a 9000 lb vehicle lift and a garage big enough to bring it inside if needed.
Plenty of steel beams, toolsand a welder that i can design something to accommodate lifting a keel to the bottom of the boat. I have been mechanically inclined for many years and love a challenge. Remember, “necessity is mother of invention”
 
Oct 29, 2019
10
Catalina 320 Ft Myers
But, the whole idea of me/us getting a C320 is so that i get rid of the majority of tools, my shop my vehicles and sail off into a relaxed future before its to late. So, the keel job can be the last!
If you see me selling all of my toys and shop then you’l know that i found the perfect boat or finished the keel-ectamy. I’m thinking a road trip to Catalina is in my near future since they are only a few hours away.
 
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Nov 12, 2009
238
J/ 32 NCYC, Western Lake Erie
I don't think anyone else has mentioned another simpler DIY approach. Cut the bottom foot or so off the existing fin keel. Split the cut off piece from top to bottom, front to back, so you end up with two thinner slabs which you then bolt/epoxy/5200 to the bottom of the now shortened keel. Same ballast as before, just not as deep. Also, not as wide as wings when you run aground, and easier and cheaper than switching keels or having wings fabricated.

We have a friend who did this decades ago when he wanted to take a 7 foot draft to the Bahamas.
 
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Jan 11, 2014
11,324
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
I don't think anyone else has mentioned another simpler DIY approach. Cut the bottom foot or so off the existing fin keel. Split the cut off piece from top to bottom, front to back, so you end up with two thinner slabs which you then bolt/epoxy/5200 to the bottom of the now shortened keel. Same ballast as before, just not as deep. Also, not as wide as wings when you run aground, and easier and cheaper than switching keels or having wings fabricated.

We have a friend who did this decades ago when he wanted to take a 7 foot draft to the Bahamas.
The problem with this approach is it will make the boat more tender. Keel ballast is a function of both the amount of weight and the depth of the keel. Mars Metals works this out so that the sailing and safety of the boat is not compromised. That's part of the reason they charge so much. If the keel is shortened, then more weight must be added to the keel to compensate for the shorter draft. For example, as designed the fin keel version of my boat (Sabre 362) is ~200lbs lighter than the wing keel. (See Sailboatdata.com)

If the OP is going to do this, he should do it right. And doing it right is not easy and requires more than just chopping off some keel and bolting it back on.
 
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Oct 29, 2019
10
Catalina 320 Ft Myers
Did I read this correctly? Really, you are going to try and do this yourself? Do you have your own travel lift? Alix and Steve started with something very different. There was no boat on top of the keel. They poured the keel and then built the boat on top of it.

Redesigning a keel is not something for amateurs. You do realize that you will be moving 4,000 lbs of lead. with 7,000 lbs of boat sitting above it?
The weight of those parts does not scare me, I’m under 5-9000 lbs daily. It’s the dependability and limits of the devices that are supporting those weights that i put my trust in and maintain properly to be at ease when putting myself and others at risk.
There was another you tube sailing video where one couple dropped their keel while on the hard in a foreign country to repair it, with the help of the yard workers and machines. You just gotta “think outside of the box” safely
 

dLj

.
Mar 23, 2017
3,374
Belliure 41 Sailing back to the Chesapeake
Sounds to me like you want to do this just because you want to do it. So go for it.

Personally, I prefer sailing so I try to limit the amount of work I have to do to go sailing. In my case, I have a Fixer-upper where I allocate a specific amount of time in the spring before launch date to do whatever work I'm going to do for that year. Then I launch and go sailing all summer. But it's a big world, so each to their own.... For the amount of time, money and energy it will take to do what you are proposing, I'll have sailed a long time and done lots of other fix it jobs... But then, I won't be able to say I cut the keel off a sailboat and put a different one on...

dj