We recently purchased a 20 yo sailboat. We hired a surveyor who preformed our inspection. the inspection lasted the better part of a full day including a 2 hour sea trial...that Survey was $785.00 Our insurance co Boat US did not have him on their Surveyor list however when I called them they said they had accepted his surveys in the past. When I asked for references he said he was a member of ABYC but provided no other listings. I met the surveyor on the boat and we reviewed most items together scince this was my first boat over 30' I wanted to be with him to review anything that through up a red flag to him. He did point out a few things that I agreed with him needed attention. i am not an experet on boating systems and relied heavily on his professionalism with things as electical, refrigeration,,and plumbing. We recived the survey report that noted the areas we had touched on and some we had not. and after each description there was the fine print as this is only my opinion and further details should be given by an expert in that area. that was noted after each area regaurding electrical, plumbing, and engine diagnostics. Im bringing all of this up because as you may have guessed we have had a lot of problems in the electrical, plumbing and finally engine....we are getting ready to rebuild the engine because of a thrown rocker arm and warped head the first week we owned the boat. the second week we had a heater pluged in the outlet and multiple outlets were loosing power...my marina pulled the panel and found half of the wiring had been incorectly installed resulting the casing to melt off the wires resulting bare wires to touch one another resulting in shortages and potential fire (non ewas on my survey). Actually the whole time I was with the surveyor he never pulled the panel. I realize the boat was 20yo and work needed to be done,,however I thought the reason we hire surveyors was to point out problems such as these. My question to the group is Do I have any recourse against the surveyor?..... My gut feeling is i do not and the old addage Buyer Be Ware applys. Any thoughts??
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BUYER BEWARE APPLIES
It's not uncommon for a surveyor to miss many if not all latent problems and particularly so with the engine as most are not marine mechanics. I don't think you mentioned specifically what plumbing issues arose. Regarding the electrical systems, he should have found any major issues. Having said that, I believe the real fault is your own for not further investigating his abilities and experience and for not finding a surveyor capable of finding such problems in the first place. You could certainly sue the surveyor but that's probably a futile gesture as even if you win, you still own the faulty boat. Don
It's not uncommon for a surveyor to miss many if not all latent problems and particularly so with the engine as most are not marine mechanics. I don't think you mentioned specifically what plumbing issues arose. Regarding the electrical systems, he should have found any major issues. Having said that, I believe the real fault is your own for not further investigating his abilities and experience and for not finding a surveyor capable of finding such problems in the first place. You could certainly sue the surveyor but that's probably a futile gesture as even if you win, you still own the faulty boat. Don
Your surveyor did his job
A marine surveyor is the equvilant of a home inspector. A home inspector isn't a mechanic or an electrician, and neither is a surveyor. All either one can do is note obvious problems, indications of what they consider to be a source of potential future problems, and recommend that you call in a qualified technician ("expert") to assess the full extent of those problems and the cost to correct. By your own admission, your surveyor noted that he didn't like what he saw in the electrical system and engine and recommended that you follow up with an electrician and a mechanic to determine the full extent of those problems and the cost to repair. Your surveyor didn't remove the electrical panel...his job was to note indications of electrical problems, not trouble-shoot and diagnose the whole system...that's a job for an electrician. If the toilet isn't working, it's not the surveyor's job to trouble shoot that either...only to note that it's not working properly and recommend that a qualified expert be called in to trouble shoot it. Had you followed your surveyor's recommendations to call in an electrician and a mechanic before you finalized the purchase, they'd have found them, given you a cost to correct, giving your the choice of making that a bargaining chip on the price, or insisting that seller correct as a condition of sale. That you failed to do that isn't the surveyor's shortcoming, it's your own. An expensive lesson, maybe...hopefully less than the $3500 it once cost me learn something about marine engines that I could have learned for free just by reading the owners manual.
A marine surveyor is the equvilant of a home inspector. A home inspector isn't a mechanic or an electrician, and neither is a surveyor. All either one can do is note obvious problems, indications of what they consider to be a source of potential future problems, and recommend that you call in a qualified technician ("expert") to assess the full extent of those problems and the cost to correct. By your own admission, your surveyor noted that he didn't like what he saw in the electrical system and engine and recommended that you follow up with an electrician and a mechanic to determine the full extent of those problems and the cost to repair. Your surveyor didn't remove the electrical panel...his job was to note indications of electrical problems, not trouble-shoot and diagnose the whole system...that's a job for an electrician. If the toilet isn't working, it's not the surveyor's job to trouble shoot that either...only to note that it's not working properly and recommend that a qualified expert be called in to trouble shoot it. Had you followed your surveyor's recommendations to call in an electrician and a mechanic before you finalized the purchase, they'd have found them, given you a cost to correct, giving your the choice of making that a bargaining chip on the price, or insisting that seller correct as a condition of sale. That you failed to do that isn't the surveyor's shortcoming, it's your own. An expensive lesson, maybe...hopefully less than the $3500 it once cost me learn something about marine engines that I could have learned for free just by reading the owners manual.
My thoughts on surveyors..
Since I recently loss my boat to Hur. Isabel, I have been looking for that "RIGHT" boat. I thougt that I had found it, a 33' Watkins. I hired a NAMS surveyor from Annapolis. He went over the boat and spent 4-5 hours including a sea trial. When I received his report it stipulated a minor cockpit sole delamanitation problem and a severe blistering problem. The cockpit would cost over $5,000 and the bottom was $10,000 - 11,000. If $5 g's is a small problem I don't want large. The second boat es an '85 35'footer, again I used a NAMS surveyor. He wrote a 27 page report about things to bring a 17 yearold vessel to the standards of a 2004 model. Now don't get me wrong some of these things are well worth noting and correcting but come on.. This same surveyor did not want to take the boat on a sea trial because he did not know the boat and neither did I but the owner was there and ready. I gess that I was under the mistaken opinion that a NAMS surveyor was the cream of the crop, but what chaps my butt is that these two individuals use verbiage that they are not to be held responsible if somthing where to malfunction the next day, It is, again , my opinion that when you fork over the monies that these people want, then they should be knowledgable of all aspects of the equipment, and take the time to do a survey properly, even if it takes two -three days! If it wasn't for the fact that most insurence co, require a written survey - I don't think I would pay these yoyos to do one.
Since I recently loss my boat to Hur. Isabel, I have been looking for that "RIGHT" boat. I thougt that I had found it, a 33' Watkins. I hired a NAMS surveyor from Annapolis. He went over the boat and spent 4-5 hours including a sea trial. When I received his report it stipulated a minor cockpit sole delamanitation problem and a severe blistering problem. The cockpit would cost over $5,000 and the bottom was $10,000 - 11,000. If $5 g's is a small problem I don't want large. The second boat es an '85 35'footer, again I used a NAMS surveyor. He wrote a 27 page report about things to bring a 17 yearold vessel to the standards of a 2004 model. Now don't get me wrong some of these things are well worth noting and correcting but come on.. This same surveyor did not want to take the boat on a sea trial because he did not know the boat and neither did I but the owner was there and ready. I gess that I was under the mistaken opinion that a NAMS surveyor was the cream of the crop, but what chaps my butt is that these two individuals use verbiage that they are not to be held responsible if somthing where to malfunction the next day, It is, again , my opinion that when you fork over the monies that these people want, then they should be knowledgable of all aspects of the equipment, and take the time to do a survey properly, even if it takes two -three days! If it wasn't for the fact that most insurence co, require a written survey - I don't think I would pay these yoyos to do one.
Surveyors aren't clairvoyant
A good surveyor--and NAMS certified are the cream of the crop--knows whether systems meet all ABYC, NFPA, UL, CG and other standards, the average lifespan of equipment, structural issues, etc...but (s)he'd have to be clairvoyant to know exactly when anything that was operating without any symptoms during the survey will fail or whether a brand new item or part is defective or was incorrectly installed. Failures occur even on brand new boats. Any surveyor who writes a 27 page report on his findings is about as thorough as it's possible for any human being to be. His disclaimers only attempt to protect him from being sued by people who expect 'em to be clairvoyant. And while we're on the subject of surveys... In many cases, surveyors are blamed for not finding a problem. Sometimes, the surveyor IS incompetent...but more often than not, it's because the survey ordered was not a complete pre-purchase survey, but only the minimal--and very cursory--"condition and value" survey required by lenders and insurance companies who only want to know about anything that could cost THEM money...and don't care about anything else that might only cost YOU money. A C&V survey costs about half as much as a full pre-purchase survey, and often doesn't even include a haulout or a sea trial...but when the new owner discovers a soft deck, blisters or a rusted engine riser, they blame the surveyor for failing to find it.
A good surveyor--and NAMS certified are the cream of the crop--knows whether systems meet all ABYC, NFPA, UL, CG and other standards, the average lifespan of equipment, structural issues, etc...but (s)he'd have to be clairvoyant to know exactly when anything that was operating without any symptoms during the survey will fail or whether a brand new item or part is defective or was incorrectly installed. Failures occur even on brand new boats. Any surveyor who writes a 27 page report on his findings is about as thorough as it's possible for any human being to be. His disclaimers only attempt to protect him from being sued by people who expect 'em to be clairvoyant. And while we're on the subject of surveys... In many cases, surveyors are blamed for not finding a problem. Sometimes, the surveyor IS incompetent...but more often than not, it's because the survey ordered was not a complete pre-purchase survey, but only the minimal--and very cursory--"condition and value" survey required by lenders and insurance companies who only want to know about anything that could cost THEM money...and don't care about anything else that might only cost YOU money. A C&V survey costs about half as much as a full pre-purchase survey, and often doesn't even include a haulout or a sea trial...but when the new owner discovers a soft deck, blisters or a rusted engine riser, they blame the surveyor for failing to find it.
A Survey is an Expensive Opinion
I'm pleased (suprized) my insurance company didn't require one to insure my 23 year old boat. My previous experience with marine surveyors was not good. Pages of "fluff" followed by legal disclamers. Image my suprize when I found my surveyor stopped at the brokers office and had a copy of the sales agreement and listing prior to meeting me at the vessel. I actually considered going to survey school becaue I know I can do better than many of these "professionals" for a lot less money. The only bigger rip off in the industry is the documentation service required by some lenders. People actually pay 400 buck to have them fill out a form. DUH?
I'm pleased (suprized) my insurance company didn't require one to insure my 23 year old boat. My previous experience with marine surveyors was not good. Pages of "fluff" followed by legal disclamers. Image my suprize when I found my surveyor stopped at the brokers office and had a copy of the sales agreement and listing prior to meeting me at the vessel. I actually considered going to survey school becaue I know I can do better than many of these "professionals" for a lot less money. The only bigger rip off in the industry is the documentation service required by some lenders. People actually pay 400 buck to have them fill out a form. DUH?
Surveyor
Chuck My forty Morgan was thirty years old when I bought it and when I had it surveyed, I expected to get an over all view and recommendations for the boat. I personally wood not trust any wiring after twenty years mositure and salt air does a number on electrical Greg Carter on the Lady Catherine II
Chuck My forty Morgan was thirty years old when I bought it and when I had it surveyed, I expected to get an over all view and recommendations for the boat. I personally wood not trust any wiring after twenty years mositure and salt air does a number on electrical Greg Carter on the Lady Catherine II
Why wouldn't YOUR surveyor want to know
the terms of YOUR purchase agreement? He works for you, and has every right to know whether there's anything in it that could impact his work for you. An expensive opinion? I've yet to see a pre-purchase survey from a competent surveyor that didn't include enough recommended corrections--at the seller's expense, if the buyer is smart--to cover at least the cost of the survey. A survey done by a qualified surveyor is an informed opinion...a very WELL informed opinion...'cuz the good ones are up to date on all ABYC, CG, UL, NFPA and other standards as well as known issues of various makes/models/years...plus he has a network of other surveyors and experts to turn to. A good marine surveyor is the equivilant of a home inspector. And it's amazing how many people who wouldn't think of buying a house without getting an inspection by a professional home inspector think that having a boat surveyed is a waste of money or just an added expense required by their lender or insurance company. As for "going to surveyor school," that's just a beginning...the good ones spend almost as many years learning what they need to know to become NAMS certified as it takes to become a doctor...AND are required to do continuing education to keep their certification.
the terms of YOUR purchase agreement? He works for you, and has every right to know whether there's anything in it that could impact his work for you. An expensive opinion? I've yet to see a pre-purchase survey from a competent surveyor that didn't include enough recommended corrections--at the seller's expense, if the buyer is smart--to cover at least the cost of the survey. A survey done by a qualified surveyor is an informed opinion...a very WELL informed opinion...'cuz the good ones are up to date on all ABYC, CG, UL, NFPA and other standards as well as known issues of various makes/models/years...plus he has a network of other surveyors and experts to turn to. A good marine surveyor is the equivilant of a home inspector. And it's amazing how many people who wouldn't think of buying a house without getting an inspection by a professional home inspector think that having a boat surveyed is a waste of money or just an added expense required by their lender or insurance company. As for "going to surveyor school," that's just a beginning...the good ones spend almost as many years learning what they need to know to become NAMS certified as it takes to become a doctor...AND are required to do continuing education to keep their certification.
Blame, Blame, Blame
Peggie's right. I've read so many of these "blame the surveyor" stories that I'm gagging. [Yeah, go do an archives search, I dare you, but who am I to start suggesting that?)
How about taking a little responsibility for yourself? You know enough about home toilets, so when your home inspector says "its stopper is rotten," even YOU can tell so, because the water in the bowl is moving and there's a running water sound inside the tank. So, how about doing that for your new-to-you boat? You can't be an electrician, plumber, air conditioner expert overnight. Heck, sometimes I think that's why we even buy boats, so we can become masters of those "trades." But when I first saw the boat I bought, and after spendign ayear looking at many other candidates, I spent an hour and a half, crawling into corners, opening stuff up and checking things out. The PO said, "I thought you said you weren't a professional." I said, "I'm not, but if I'm forking over this kind of money, I damn well better be sure of what it is I'm buying, and know something about it." Myself, that is. Then I did a survey with a surveyor, who came highly recommended, and performed admirably, with a reasonable but extremely complete report, with a list of things to do. The report came with the disclaimers, which are only reasonable, and I'm still working on his list of things to fix. Like: new exhaust riser. See my write up of THAT particular fun event in the next Mainsheet magazine [Feb. 2004]. He told me to get it replace in 1998. It wasn't his fault that I waited until 2003. Stop whining and stop trying to place blame on things you shoulda learned in school, or found out about before you went out and dropped some hard earned cash on a loser. Ever bought a dog of a used car that had shiny new paint on it? You could, however, look at this as a great learning experience. Either give up boating and be a complainer, or learn about what shortcomings you have in your systems, and FIX them yourself. It's amazing how much you WILL learn. For, after all, when you're out on there on a lee shore, and things start going KABLOOIE, there just ain't no one to call or blame, is there? Stu
Peggie's right. I've read so many of these "blame the surveyor" stories that I'm gagging. [Yeah, go do an archives search, I dare you, but who am I to start suggesting that?)
How about taking a little responsibility for yourself? You know enough about home toilets, so when your home inspector says "its stopper is rotten," even YOU can tell so, because the water in the bowl is moving and there's a running water sound inside the tank. So, how about doing that for your new-to-you boat? You can't be an electrician, plumber, air conditioner expert overnight. Heck, sometimes I think that's why we even buy boats, so we can become masters of those "trades." But when I first saw the boat I bought, and after spendign ayear looking at many other candidates, I spent an hour and a half, crawling into corners, opening stuff up and checking things out. The PO said, "I thought you said you weren't a professional." I said, "I'm not, but if I'm forking over this kind of money, I damn well better be sure of what it is I'm buying, and know something about it." Myself, that is. Then I did a survey with a surveyor, who came highly recommended, and performed admirably, with a reasonable but extremely complete report, with a list of things to do. The report came with the disclaimers, which are only reasonable, and I'm still working on his list of things to fix. Like: new exhaust riser. See my write up of THAT particular fun event in the next Mainsheet magazine [Feb. 2004]. He told me to get it replace in 1998. It wasn't his fault that I waited until 2003. Stop whining and stop trying to place blame on things you shoulda learned in school, or found out about before you went out and dropped some hard earned cash on a loser. Ever bought a dog of a used car that had shiny new paint on it? You could, however, look at this as a great learning experience. Either give up boating and be a complainer, or learn about what shortcomings you have in your systems, and FIX them yourself. It's amazing how much you WILL learn. For, after all, when you're out on there on a lee shore, and things start going KABLOOIE, there just ain't no one to call or blame, is there? Stu- Status