Hi all - I had a question. Should I have a survey done before buying a new boat? A fresh from the factory dealy. I thought it might be a good idea, but I'm not sure. I passed the idea by the dealer and got a look of distain. The old 'what are nuts?' look. They seemed to think a new boat is immune to problems I suppose. I figure a survey might catch a nagging problem early. I'm curious what folks think on the subject, or have done themselves. Thanks. Cheers, SteveD
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Pro's and Con's
There is an extensive discussion of this in the archives and recommend it to your reading (very interesting 'horror stories'). For me, the strongest arguments can be summarized as follows: A surveyor may find serious issues that a dealer (or you) may miss that should be addressed at commissioning. A dealer with a strong reputation for attention to detail in commissioning and verifiable references from experienced yacht owners, is unlikely to miss anything a surveyor is likely to catch. (Reputation based on competancy is essential in the selection of either a surveyor or dealer.) Regards, Regards
There is an extensive discussion of this in the archives and recommend it to your reading (very interesting 'horror stories'). For me, the strongest arguments can be summarized as follows: A surveyor may find serious issues that a dealer (or you) may miss that should be addressed at commissioning. A dealer with a strong reputation for attention to detail in commissioning and verifiable references from experienced yacht owners, is unlikely to miss anything a surveyor is likely to catch. (Reputation based on competancy is essential in the selection of either a surveyor or dealer.) Regards, Regards
Yes!!! get a survey & new dealer
Hire a surveyor yourself, not a surveyor the seller recomends. The surveyor is working only in your interests. The suryey may show deficiences the dealer or manufacture will have to correct prior to financing or insureing. This is why he looked at you like you had three heads, it can slow the sales process and he is likely only there for your commision. A worthy seller would have no reservation with your question and would only invite you to do so for your comfort. With the reaction (insult) this jerk gave you, I would walk away, he knows it's going to cost him money to sell you a boat. Its your money ,at least deal with someone that will appreciate your hard earned money. This dealer you have mentioned is not likely to follow up with good service or warrenty. It's your money.
Hire a surveyor yourself, not a surveyor the seller recomends. The surveyor is working only in your interests. The suryey may show deficiences the dealer or manufacture will have to correct prior to financing or insureing. This is why he looked at you like you had three heads, it can slow the sales process and he is likely only there for your commision. A worthy seller would have no reservation with your question and would only invite you to do so for your comfort. With the reaction (insult) this jerk gave you, I would walk away, he knows it's going to cost him money to sell you a boat. Its your money ,at least deal with someone that will appreciate your hard earned money. This dealer you have mentioned is not likely to follow up with good service or warrenty. It's your money.
Sure Why not?
Do you kow anybody who has bought a new house that didn't have problems? Simple solution is to put escrow money aside to fix any punch list developed. Like a car, it is yours once you drive off the lot. The survey should be cheaper since engine, sails,rigging should not be an issue. It is the little things that drive you nuts like where are the curtains? Yes the dealer probably did look at you like you are nuts because it is so rarely done. When these boats come to the dealer there are a lot of pieces to put together. Unless you are confident in the dealer having a high sales volumn of your boat I would want another pair of eyes looking at it.
Do you kow anybody who has bought a new house that didn't have problems? Simple solution is to put escrow money aside to fix any punch list developed. Like a car, it is yours once you drive off the lot. The survey should be cheaper since engine, sails,rigging should not be an issue. It is the little things that drive you nuts like where are the curtains? Yes the dealer probably did look at you like you are nuts because it is so rarely done. When these boats come to the dealer there are a lot of pieces to put together. Unless you are confident in the dealer having a high sales volumn of your boat I would want another pair of eyes looking at it.
I would...
Boats are built by people...and people make mistakes. Boat builders hire--and then have to fire, but not before they've worked on boats--incompetents who don't care whether their work is right. Same is true at dealerships. I've seen brand new boats on which the running lights were reversed...bilge pumps or float switches mounted so high that water would slosh over the cabin sole or drown the batteries before the pump came on...electrical equipment wired backwards...and who among us hasn't found loose or missing screws, hose clamps etc. A survey could save you AND the dealer a lot of warranty work aggravation and/or down time while you fix something yourself...or even a horror story. Plus, you'll learn a lot about where things are on your new boat and how they work from a good surveyor...along with suggestions about the best approach for anything you want to add to it or change.
Boats are built by people...and people make mistakes. Boat builders hire--and then have to fire, but not before they've worked on boats--incompetents who don't care whether their work is right. Same is true at dealerships. I've seen brand new boats on which the running lights were reversed...bilge pumps or float switches mounted so high that water would slosh over the cabin sole or drown the batteries before the pump came on...electrical equipment wired backwards...and who among us hasn't found loose or missing screws, hose clamps etc. A survey could save you AND the dealer a lot of warranty work aggravation and/or down time while you fix something yourself...or even a horror story. Plus, you'll learn a lot about where things are on your new boat and how they work from a good surveyor...along with suggestions about the best approach for anything you want to add to it or change.
New Boat Survey
Steve Chris is right. Here's the link to the survey on the archives that he was referring to. Best three or four hundred dollars you can spend (and a small proportion of your total new boat cost). What good insurance! Stu You can read more by doing an archives search on "survey," in message, but this link is the most recent and is related to your question about new boats. Most of the other survey questions don't relate to new boat surveys.
Steve Chris is right. Here's the link to the survey on the archives that he was referring to. Best three or four hundred dollars you can spend (and a small proportion of your total new boat cost). What good insurance! Stu You can read more by doing an archives search on "survey," in message, but this link is the most recent and is related to your question about new boats. Most of the other survey questions don't relate to new boat surveys.
Some More Thoughts on the Subject
Dealer Relationship: Try to not let the dealer think you're looking for a fight or that you plan to see him in court. It's true that people who buy new boats typically don't get them surveyed but that doesn't mean they shouldn't. What are you really looking for? There are things that a surveyor will find that "are not right" or not best practice but the boat will still float and sail and neither the dealer nor the builder are going to change them. Leaks: I'm thinking things like the mast and wiring where it goes into the mast - this should be leak-proof. Mast wiring: Make sure the conductors are inside the conduit, have proper strain relief mechanisms, and the connectors are insulated against moisture and corrosion, especially those at the top of the mast. Talk it over with the surveyor about his thought about how he can help you and see if they make sense. One of the good things is that there is a second set of eyes that can support your case in court should it ever come to that. Also, the surveyor can help you with items that should be done that wouldn't fit into a "punch list item", such as coating all stainless fasteners in aluminum, or removing fasteners in the deck and epoxy coating the holes to seal against water intrusion, for example. The surveyor you select should be available to help you after the purchase with either warranty issues or maintenance and operation issues, probably on an hourly basis or per call basis. In fact, you may have questions even a year or two later. If the boat you're buying is your first boat, or a major step-up from what you've had before, then I think it would be money well spent. And don't shop based on price. Discuss "scope" of services and find someone who will communicate well with you and has an interest in what you're doing. The surveyor may be able to help you deal with the dealer to get future "issues" corrected. Time is money so expect that it will cost but in the long run it should be smoother and cheaper. Idea: Start now collecting manufacturers catalogs on everything on the boat. Lighting equipment, spars, stove, water heater, pumps, etc. and etc. as an adjuct to the Owners Manual.
Dealer Relationship: Try to not let the dealer think you're looking for a fight or that you plan to see him in court. It's true that people who buy new boats typically don't get them surveyed but that doesn't mean they shouldn't. What are you really looking for? There are things that a surveyor will find that "are not right" or not best practice but the boat will still float and sail and neither the dealer nor the builder are going to change them. Leaks: I'm thinking things like the mast and wiring where it goes into the mast - this should be leak-proof. Mast wiring: Make sure the conductors are inside the conduit, have proper strain relief mechanisms, and the connectors are insulated against moisture and corrosion, especially those at the top of the mast. Talk it over with the surveyor about his thought about how he can help you and see if they make sense. One of the good things is that there is a second set of eyes that can support your case in court should it ever come to that. Also, the surveyor can help you with items that should be done that wouldn't fit into a "punch list item", such as coating all stainless fasteners in aluminum, or removing fasteners in the deck and epoxy coating the holes to seal against water intrusion, for example. The surveyor you select should be available to help you after the purchase with either warranty issues or maintenance and operation issues, probably on an hourly basis or per call basis. In fact, you may have questions even a year or two later. If the boat you're buying is your first boat, or a major step-up from what you've had before, then I think it would be money well spent. And don't shop based on price. Discuss "scope" of services and find someone who will communicate well with you and has an interest in what you're doing. The surveyor may be able to help you deal with the dealer to get future "issues" corrected. Time is money so expect that it will cost but in the long run it should be smoother and cheaper. Idea: Start now collecting manufacturers catalogs on everything on the boat. Lighting equipment, spars, stove, water heater, pumps, etc. and etc. as an adjuct to the Owners Manual.
New Boat survey
Though no longer a Hunter owner, in purchasing our new boat which was built in SA. The Insurance company and bank wanted a new boat survey. An independent look helped the insurance, the bank, and myself that the boat was assembled correctly. It also help me feel comforatable that boat had everything that was ordered and was installed. Huge deal since the boat was delivered 7800 miles.
Though no longer a Hunter owner, in purchasing our new boat which was built in SA. The Insurance company and bank wanted a new boat survey. An independent look helped the insurance, the bank, and myself that the boat was assembled correctly. It also help me feel comforatable that boat had everything that was ordered and was installed. Huge deal since the boat was delivered 7800 miles.
NO! That is what the warrenty is for.
Do you get a survey when you buy a new car. What could be wrong? Blister, no the boats not in the water. The motor, no it is brand new. A surveyer could check for air voids in the fiberglass. No telling if he'll find them or not! You can do that too! The boat should not fail until it gets in the water and that is what the warrenty is for!
Do you get a survey when you buy a new car. What could be wrong? Blister, no the boats not in the water. The motor, no it is brand new. A surveyer could check for air voids in the fiberglass. No telling if he'll find them or not! You can do that too! The boat should not fail until it gets in the water and that is what the warrenty is for!
Sorry Jim, can't agree
First of all, yes you should carefully inspect a new car for fit and defects before taking delivery. Most cars have a three year warranty and are used daily so defects become readily apparent. Cars coming off an assembly line have much greater QC than a boat no matter the cost. Most states have lemon laws to protect car buyers. Cars are not completed by a dealer with the exception of "new car prep" unlike a boat which is completed by a dealer. If you have never seen the commisioning of a boat in person,I suspect you would not understand what I mean. New car dealers hold franchises which have very strict compliance for employee training. Boat dealers usually get some sales training. Help is hit or miss. This is not to knock boat dealers but their volume is certainly a lot less than a car dealer so they may not be familiar with the boat they are trying to comission. I wonder how many manufacturers actualy put the rig up and test the systems before shipping? That I don't have answer for but would interested in knowing.
First of all, yes you should carefully inspect a new car for fit and defects before taking delivery. Most cars have a three year warranty and are used daily so defects become readily apparent. Cars coming off an assembly line have much greater QC than a boat no matter the cost. Most states have lemon laws to protect car buyers. Cars are not completed by a dealer with the exception of "new car prep" unlike a boat which is completed by a dealer. If you have never seen the commisioning of a boat in person,I suspect you would not understand what I mean. New car dealers hold franchises which have very strict compliance for employee training. Boat dealers usually get some sales training. Help is hit or miss. This is not to knock boat dealers but their volume is certainly a lot less than a car dealer so they may not be familiar with the boat they are trying to comission. I wonder how many manufacturers actualy put the rig up and test the systems before shipping? That I don't have answer for but would interested in knowing.
Jeff, I don't care
It is still a waste of money! There is nothing for them to survey! NO BLISTERS, MOTOR AND ELECTRONIC WORK.... What are they surveying? The new owner is paying for nothing! Most people I talk to thinks the surveyor they hired did a lousy job! I know the mine did on a 1992 H28. The owner used silicone to patch an oil leak. The survey did not find it!
It is still a waste of money! There is nothing for them to survey! NO BLISTERS, MOTOR AND ELECTRONIC WORK.... What are they surveying? The new owner is paying for nothing! Most people I talk to thinks the surveyor they hired did a lousy job! I know the mine did on a 1992 H28. The owner used silicone to patch an oil leak. The survey did not find it!
I'd be surprised...
... if a surveyor could really find any problems on a new boat. He might look for obvious engine fluid leaks, incorrectly installed fittings or running rigging I suppose. But you could do that, too. And what happens if he finds something? Does that kill the sale, or do you just get it fixed under warranty like you would have done anyway? If you're a new buyer and you don't have much experience around boats, I suppose any and all help you could get would be beneficial. But I'd never do it--hire a surveyor for a new boat--and I am as careful as they come.
... if a surveyor could really find any problems on a new boat. He might look for obvious engine fluid leaks, incorrectly installed fittings or running rigging I suppose. But you could do that, too. And what happens if he finds something? Does that kill the sale, or do you just get it fixed under warranty like you would have done anyway? If you're a new buyer and you don't have much experience around boats, I suppose any and all help you could get would be beneficial. But I'd never do it--hire a surveyor for a new boat--and I am as careful as they come.
One half of one percent
of $120,000 is $600. Money well spent on a survey given that no waranty will cover consequential losses. If a defect is discovered during the warranty period that lays your boat up for a month, you are still paying slip fees, insurance and loan payment. Maybe a survey wouldn't discover the defect, but you can also get immediate value from a survey by looking over the surveyor's shoulder during the process. The surveyor can point out maintanence items to watch out for, because boat designs and materials are always compromises.
of $120,000 is $600. Money well spent on a survey given that no waranty will cover consequential losses. If a defect is discovered during the warranty period that lays your boat up for a month, you are still paying slip fees, insurance and loan payment. Maybe a survey wouldn't discover the defect, but you can also get immediate value from a survey by looking over the surveyor's shoulder during the process. The surveyor can point out maintanence items to watch out for, because boat designs and materials are always compromises.
New Home Inspection?
Similar situation to buying a new construction house - should you get it inspected or not? No way should you buy a "used" house without an inspection - it's for your own protection - same for the new boat. Con's - it costs money, it's brand new, what could be wrong?, the city inspected it - didn't they?, I have a warranty.... Pro's - A trained, unbiased (read: not in love with and trying to get moved into the place) review of what has been done - what hasn't, and what should have been done. Builders and their subs generally want to do a good job, but they are human, and miss things or cheap out on things - things you might not have the expertese to find before they become things you need to deal with because you've bought the house, moved in and the builder has moved on to another project. He is much more motivated to fix, or negotiate with you before you've taken possession. My vote says have your new house, and your new boat looked over by a pro before you buy. (I did neither and regret it). Tim Brogan April IV C350 #68 Seattle
Similar situation to buying a new construction house - should you get it inspected or not? No way should you buy a "used" house without an inspection - it's for your own protection - same for the new boat. Con's - it costs money, it's brand new, what could be wrong?, the city inspected it - didn't they?, I have a warranty.... Pro's - A trained, unbiased (read: not in love with and trying to get moved into the place) review of what has been done - what hasn't, and what should have been done. Builders and their subs generally want to do a good job, but they are human, and miss things or cheap out on things - things you might not have the expertese to find before they become things you need to deal with because you've bought the house, moved in and the builder has moved on to another project. He is much more motivated to fix, or negotiate with you before you've taken possession. My vote says have your new house, and your new boat looked over by a pro before you buy. (I did neither and regret it). Tim Brogan April IV C350 #68 Seattle
Why . . .
a new boat has not been given the opportunity to deteriorate, so the overall condition should be great. If it is a quality concern the warranty and reputation of the company are what you should look at. If you are not sure about the boat to begin with, then don't buy it. Regards, Ted
a new boat has not been given the opportunity to deteriorate, so the overall condition should be great. If it is a quality concern the warranty and reputation of the company are what you should look at. If you are not sure about the boat to begin with, then don't buy it. Regards, Ted
Maybe hire the surveyor 11 Months after
you purchase the boat. That way everything that might have been a potential problem is officially documented before the 12 Month warantee is up. Or hire him soon after it looks like the new boat dealer is not fixing things to your satisfaction. When you get a boat new, most dealers will have to fix small things, its the nature of the beast. Even Hinckleys, Sabres, Island Packets, et. al. don't come to you "day 1" perfect. But a good dealer will take care of those issues. I guess you could hire a surveyor "day 1", but the reality is that most "latent" defects might take a little time to expose problems. And my feeling is if you have a "Good" dealer, he will walk through the whole boat and all the systems with you when he finishes the commissioning. If he doesn't and you feel uncomfortable about your new boat, then you should have a surveyor upfront or get a better dealer.
you purchase the boat. That way everything that might have been a potential problem is officially documented before the 12 Month warantee is up. Or hire him soon after it looks like the new boat dealer is not fixing things to your satisfaction. When you get a boat new, most dealers will have to fix small things, its the nature of the beast. Even Hinckleys, Sabres, Island Packets, et. al. don't come to you "day 1" perfect. But a good dealer will take care of those issues. I guess you could hire a surveyor "day 1", but the reality is that most "latent" defects might take a little time to expose problems. And my feeling is if you have a "Good" dealer, he will walk through the whole boat and all the systems with you when he finishes the commissioning. If he doesn't and you feel uncomfortable about your new boat, then you should have a surveyor upfront or get a better dealer.
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