I've made an offer that's been accepted on an '87 C&C. The insurance company (BoatUS) isn't requiring a survey. I spent several hours inspecting & sailing the boat, and of course, fell in love with it. It is in great shape and obviously has been well maintained. A freind told me I really don't need the equipment lists, boat description, etc., that the surveyor will supply. He suggested the only benefit might be exposing the possibility of delamination in the deck, and blisters in the hull. I can save over $600.00 bypassing the survey. Given the age of the boat, is it wise to pass? If the insurance company doesn't require it, what am I getting for my money? Thanks for your valued opinions.
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Why Survey?
Harry: You've thanked us for our valuable opinions; which may be worth what you pay for them. A competant Surveyor will offer another valuable opinion - hopefully worth what you pay for it.
Seriously, tho' a survey is not a neccesity, it could discover some of those things you mention (& others), that are difficult for the average boater to assess. If you are confident in your self-survey, then consider it done, and forgo the $600 additional expence. Regards, Gord May
Harry: You've thanked us for our valuable opinions; which may be worth what you pay for them. A competant Surveyor will offer another valuable opinion - hopefully worth what you pay for it.
Seriously, tho' a survey is not a neccesity, it could discover some of those things you mention (& others), that are difficult for the average boater to assess. If you are confident in your self-survey, then consider it done, and forgo the $600 additional expence. Regards, Gord Maypeace of mind!
Harry, Having just recently purchased a sailboat which took about 1 1/2year to find and two surveys later. There's absolutely no way I would consider buying a boat without a survey despite what my insurance company requires. One of the vessel we looked and put an offer on (conditional to a survey and sea trial) looked awesome, spent several hours going through everything to make sure, she was outstanding and yes, we were in love! Only to come crashing down when the surveyor found signs of delamination at the bow below water line, extremely high humidity level in hull, etc the hull would have to be redone according to him. (6000.00$). Our dream boat would have turned into a major nightmare, it was the best spent 500.00$ of my life. We went through the same thing on this new boat of our, but this time no surprises. She is a dreamboat and it was again the survey was the best investment ever. I sleep great a night! If your short 600.00$ delay a project on the boat 'til later, but I personally would not skip the survey! Wish you well and may she turns out to be the dreamboat you're looking for! Ghislain "Emilie-Jolie" C30 1987
Harry, Having just recently purchased a sailboat which took about 1 1/2year to find and two surveys later. There's absolutely no way I would consider buying a boat without a survey despite what my insurance company requires. One of the vessel we looked and put an offer on (conditional to a survey and sea trial) looked awesome, spent several hours going through everything to make sure, she was outstanding and yes, we were in love! Only to come crashing down when the surveyor found signs of delamination at the bow below water line, extremely high humidity level in hull, etc the hull would have to be redone according to him. (6000.00$). Our dream boat would have turned into a major nightmare, it was the best spent 500.00$ of my life. We went through the same thing on this new boat of our, but this time no surprises. She is a dreamboat and it was again the survey was the best investment ever. I sleep great a night! If your short 600.00$ delay a project on the boat 'til later, but I personally would not skip the survey! Wish you well and may she turns out to be the dreamboat you're looking for! Ghislain "Emilie-Jolie" C30 1987
peace of mind
been there done that!! i fell in love with a boat that looked emaculate. top of the line care and beautiful. decided to survey and discovered that the rudder was eroding away, ( $6000+). I would not purchase a boat without a survey..worth every dime........bob
been there done that!! i fell in love with a boat that looked emaculate. top of the line care and beautiful. decided to survey and discovered that the rudder was eroding away, ( $6000+). I would not purchase a boat without a survey..worth every dime........bob
Definitely!
Great cosmetics can cover up a multitude of sins. I've yet to see any boat--including my own when I sold it, and I would have bet money that it was in perfect condition--on which a competent surveyor couldn't find at least enough recommended corrections (at the seller's expense, of course) to cover the cost of the survey. You prob'ly know a lot...but you don't know all the ABYC, UL, NFPA and other safety standards...good surveyors do, and they look for anything doesn't meet 'em. There prob'ly isn't anything major wrong with this boat, but a whole bunch of little bitty things can add up--in cost to correct before they cause problems, and even more in repairs if they aren't. You wouldn't buy a house without getting a home inspection...and houses can't sink, capsize, or be dismasted. Why would you even consider buying a boat--that CAN do all of the above and more--without one?
Great cosmetics can cover up a multitude of sins. I've yet to see any boat--including my own when I sold it, and I would have bet money that it was in perfect condition--on which a competent surveyor couldn't find at least enough recommended corrections (at the seller's expense, of course) to cover the cost of the survey. You prob'ly know a lot...but you don't know all the ABYC, UL, NFPA and other safety standards...good surveyors do, and they look for anything doesn't meet 'em. There prob'ly isn't anything major wrong with this boat, but a whole bunch of little bitty things can add up--in cost to correct before they cause problems, and even more in repairs if they aren't. You wouldn't buy a house without getting a home inspection...and houses can't sink, capsize, or be dismasted. Why would you even consider buying a boat--that CAN do all of the above and more--without one?
Same mind set
I have to agree that the $600 you will spend on a survey could very well be the best money you have spent. I think there are very few us that have been around for a while that did not find the perfect boat only to find that the survey brought out points we never saw. Peggy is right, understanding ABYC, UL NFPA codes are long and complicated. There are points we wouldn't think about yet a good surveyor will pick those defects right out. I would go through SAMS or NAMS to find a good local surveyor. Someone who will be independent of the owner and/or broker Good luck
I have to agree that the $600 you will spend on a survey could very well be the best money you have spent. I think there are very few us that have been around for a while that did not find the perfect boat only to find that the survey brought out points we never saw. Peggy is right, understanding ABYC, UL NFPA codes are long and complicated. There are points we wouldn't think about yet a good surveyor will pick those defects right out. I would go through SAMS or NAMS to find a good local surveyor. Someone who will be independent of the owner and/or broker Good luck
Don't do it..
I would never consider purchasing a boat without a complete survey. Best case; you know everything there is wrong with the boat and you live with it or not and puts you in a better negotiating position, worst cast, you spent some money to find out it was a jewel or lemon and walk away. Good luck.. Been there...
I would never consider purchasing a boat without a complete survey. Best case; you know everything there is wrong with the boat and you live with it or not and puts you in a better negotiating position, worst cast, you spent some money to find out it was a jewel or lemon and walk away. Good luck.. Been there...
Get the survey!!!!
A survey of your boat will give you very valuable information about things you can't possibly know unless you are a surveyor yourself. A knowledgable and certified surveyor can do non-destructive testing of your ship systems and make recommendations about things you need to fix. I ended up with a whole list of things. I did buy the boat and I was glad to have a list of things that the surveyor recommended I fix in the order in which it should be done to maintain maximum safety to the crew and life for the boat. I would never skip a survey on any boat I was looking to purchase.
A survey of your boat will give you very valuable information about things you can't possibly know unless you are a surveyor yourself. A knowledgable and certified surveyor can do non-destructive testing of your ship systems and make recommendations about things you need to fix. I ended up with a whole list of things. I did buy the boat and I was glad to have a list of things that the surveyor recommended I fix in the order in which it should be done to maintain maximum safety to the crew and life for the boat. I would never skip a survey on any boat I was looking to purchase.
Get a survey for sure!!
If you check with some of the professional surveyors re certain manufactured boats, you will find a common thread of things they will be looking for. On an 1987 C&C waterlogged decks are quite common. Be safe, get the survey. Fair winds, Jim - Sam's Closin'time - G-26 - BHYC
If you check with some of the professional surveyors re certain manufactured boats, you will find a common thread of things they will be looking for. On an 1987 C&C waterlogged decks are quite common. Be safe, get the survey. Fair winds, Jim - Sam's Closin'time - G-26 - BHYC
7 out of 8 agree.
Harry: I would get the survey too. You never know about these insurance companies. They may not a survey today, but when it comes time to insure it may be a different story. They not only give you a story about the boat, but also give you a value on the boat. These things can come in handy when you are negotiating the final price.
Harry: I would get the survey too. You never know about these insurance companies. They may not a survey today, but when it comes time to insure it may be a different story. They not only give you a story about the boat, but also give you a value on the boat. These things can come in handy when you are negotiating the final price.
Another reason
Harry, I agree with the majority. Another great reason for a survey is you will have an oportunity to follow the surveyor through the boat. Remember he is working for you. By shirt tailing the surveyor you will learn a lot about the different systems and what all the valves and switches do and will save you time later tracing things or asking the owner. I was fortunate the seller of my vessel gave me his phone # to call if I had questions. I am fortunate as that is not always available to the buyer. Use a surveyor and ask lots of Questions regards, Richard s/v La Vida Feliz
Harry, I agree with the majority. Another great reason for a survey is you will have an oportunity to follow the surveyor through the boat. Remember he is working for you. By shirt tailing the surveyor you will learn a lot about the different systems and what all the valves and switches do and will save you time later tracing things or asking the owner. I was fortunate the seller of my vessel gave me his phone # to call if I had questions. I am fortunate as that is not always available to the buyer. Use a surveyor and ask lots of Questions regards, Richard s/v La Vida Feliz
i've been told!
It now occurs to me, that you probably would not have asked the question, were you fully competent to self-survey. Hence, I’ll withdraw my original advice (survey useful but not necessary) - and encourage you to get the survey done - for the reasons others have stated (and more). I apologize for an ill-considered reply (you DID get what you paid for, from me). Standing corrected, Gord May
It now occurs to me, that you probably would not have asked the question, were you fully competent to self-survey. Hence, I’ll withdraw my original advice (survey useful but not necessary) - and encourage you to get the survey done - for the reasons others have stated (and more). I apologize for an ill-considered reply (you DID get what you paid for, from me). Standing corrected, Gord May
Even on a new boat
I just had a survey done on a used boat I fell in love with. I am certainly glad that I did. There were several major problems discovered, both above and below the waterline. This would have cost me thousands of dollars without the survey. My surveyor told me about his experiences surveying new boats. Problems happen, even at the factory. He looked at one that had so many voids in the fiberglass that it was sent back to the factory! Oh yes, my bank doing the financing requires a survey for the loan. Hope things work out for you. Ken Palmer, S/V Liberty 1981 H33, Rochester, NY FS
I just had a survey done on a used boat I fell in love with. I am certainly glad that I did. There were several major problems discovered, both above and below the waterline. This would have cost me thousands of dollars without the survey. My surveyor told me about his experiences surveying new boats. Problems happen, even at the factory. He looked at one that had so many voids in the fiberglass that it was sent back to the factory! Oh yes, my bank doing the financing requires a survey for the loan. Hope things work out for you. Ken Palmer, S/V Liberty 1981 H33, Rochester, NY FS
OK!! I'm doing the survey.
Gord, I loved your first reply...get what I pay for. Peggy is right on the money as was just about everyone else. I'm not a surveyor, nor profess to know ABYC standards, much less anything about diesel engines or plumbing systems. I spoke to the surveyor last night, (Annapolis area, and has a reputation for detail) and was convinced by her to do it. She also convinced me to do the full pre-purchase survey which includes sea trail. Now I check all your reaponses, and wonder why I ever considered passing on it. I truly appreciate your responses, experience sharing, and advice. Glad you're out there. The survey is scheduled for the 14th. I'll let ya'll know what she finds.
Gord, I loved your first reply...get what I pay for. Peggy is right on the money as was just about everyone else. I'm not a surveyor, nor profess to know ABYC standards, much less anything about diesel engines or plumbing systems. I spoke to the surveyor last night, (Annapolis area, and has a reputation for detail) and was convinced by her to do it. She also convinced me to do the full pre-purchase survey which includes sea trail. Now I check all your reaponses, and wonder why I ever considered passing on it. I truly appreciate your responses, experience sharing, and advice. Glad you're out there. The survey is scheduled for the 14th. I'll let ya'll know what she finds.
Just saw this link and my 2Cents
harry definitly get the survey!..and sea trial..run the engine under load as long as they will bear you doing it!....if you have any doubts.have a mechanic also look at the engine!!. My surveyor did the cursurary exam..told me that the wirering was done buy an DIY and some plumbing...at that point I wished he recomended I get further inspections..Turns out that our surveyor never pulled the panel..if he did he would have found that the do it yourselfer wired most of the panel incurectly..when the outlets started tripping off one by one after I bought the boat...I hired a electriction to check it out.the wires had melted the jackets and were touching each other..almost caught fire.....The engine has had problems since we purchased and we are now looking to replace..through a rocker arm on the first 8 hours of ownership.then ring job....The surveyor was very clear that he takes no responsibility for engine diagnostic electrical diagnostics or rigging since he did not climb the mast.......So my point is ask the surveyor if he has ANY doubts about any part of the boat and if he would recomend you go further with another inspector who is qualified to tell you of potential problems. IE engine mechanic for compression tests..or electriction to test amperage readings on bow lights or pull panel... I guess I feel shafted in that I paid $1000.00 for what I thought was a professional Inlisted with the ABYC and he did not mention or recomend to me to get further inpections. GET A SURVEY....be there with them..ask a ton of questions on KEY components of the boat..electical engine charging systems heads plumbing..do you want them to inspect the rigging aloft??..if not they should have a visual scope to do so..life lines!!..ours snapped at inspection... Look through Sailnets articals on selecting and reviewing the survey. I wish you Good luck!....
harry definitly get the survey!..and sea trial..run the engine under load as long as they will bear you doing it!....if you have any doubts.have a mechanic also look at the engine!!. My surveyor did the cursurary exam..told me that the wirering was done buy an DIY and some plumbing...at that point I wished he recomended I get further inspections..Turns out that our surveyor never pulled the panel..if he did he would have found that the do it yourselfer wired most of the panel incurectly..when the outlets started tripping off one by one after I bought the boat...I hired a electriction to check it out.the wires had melted the jackets and were touching each other..almost caught fire.....The engine has had problems since we purchased and we are now looking to replace..through a rocker arm on the first 8 hours of ownership.then ring job....The surveyor was very clear that he takes no responsibility for engine diagnostic electrical diagnostics or rigging since he did not climb the mast.......So my point is ask the surveyor if he has ANY doubts about any part of the boat and if he would recomend you go further with another inspector who is qualified to tell you of potential problems. IE engine mechanic for compression tests..or electriction to test amperage readings on bow lights or pull panel... I guess I feel shafted in that I paid $1000.00 for what I thought was a professional Inlisted with the ABYC and he did not mention or recomend to me to get further inpections. GET A SURVEY....be there with them..ask a ton of questions on KEY components of the boat..electical engine charging systems heads plumbing..do you want them to inspect the rigging aloft??..if not they should have a visual scope to do so..life lines!!..ours snapped at inspection... Look through Sailnets articals on selecting and reviewing the survey. I wish you Good luck!....
You raise an important point
There are two kinds of surveys: A cursory "condition and value" survey is all that's required by lenders and insurance companies... They're usually done in the slip--no haulout, no sea trial, 'cuz lenders and insurance companies don't care whether the engine runs or the bottom has blisters...the compression post is rotten...they just want to know if the boat's really worth what you're trying to borrow on it and insure it for. Usually only takes about an hour and costs about 1/3-1/2 the price of a full pre-purchase survey. Occasionally, you'll get more of a survey than that if the surveyor is a good one who cares. Some insurance companies will require a haulout of older boats to make sure there's nothing wrong below the waterline that could sink it. Most insurance companies require a new C&V survey every 5-10 years on older boats. A complete pre-purchase survey is far more extensive and should cover every inch of the boat and every system on it. Every piece of equipment should be tested, and the boat's performance evaluated. That can take all day, and requires a haul-out and a sea trial. And it's the ONLY kind of survey you want when buying a boat...'cuz, unlike your lender or insurance company, you want to know anything and everything about the boat--especially anything that could potentially cost YOU money after the sale.
There are two kinds of surveys: A cursory "condition and value" survey is all that's required by lenders and insurance companies... They're usually done in the slip--no haulout, no sea trial, 'cuz lenders and insurance companies don't care whether the engine runs or the bottom has blisters...the compression post is rotten...they just want to know if the boat's really worth what you're trying to borrow on it and insure it for. Usually only takes about an hour and costs about 1/3-1/2 the price of a full pre-purchase survey. Occasionally, you'll get more of a survey than that if the surveyor is a good one who cares. Some insurance companies will require a haulout of older boats to make sure there's nothing wrong below the waterline that could sink it. Most insurance companies require a new C&V survey every 5-10 years on older boats. A complete pre-purchase survey is far more extensive and should cover every inch of the boat and every system on it. Every piece of equipment should be tested, and the boat's performance evaluated. That can take all day, and requires a haul-out and a sea trial. And it's the ONLY kind of survey you want when buying a boat...'cuz, unlike your lender or insurance company, you want to know anything and everything about the boat--especially anything that could potentially cost YOU money after the sale.
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