A recent survey for insurance purposes found a 18"x5" void in the bilge located below the bilge pump. The void is a separation of the fiberglass laminate from the wood core in the keel sump.It goes on to say this is a common problem with mid to late 1980's Catalina 30's. It is recommrnded that the area be injected with epoxy. No evidence of keel movement was noted. Question: Has anyone had this problem? My boat yard said they have heard of this before but have never found it to be a problem worth fixing. Comments / Suggestions? Leave it or fix it?
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wood core below waterline?
Didn't know Cats were built with wood below the waterline - is that really true and if so, what stops it from worsening? Also, is the mast or mast step supported by this?
Didn't know Cats were built with wood below the waterline - is that really true and if so, what stops it from worsening? Also, is the mast or mast step supported by this?
Mast Step
The mast step is actually forward of the 18" length of wood. The surveyor did not actually "poke through" the fiberglass in the keel sump to look at the wood but by "thumping" in the area found it to indicate a possible problem, and yes you are correct he said it could get worse over time.
The mast step is actually forward of the 18" length of wood. The surveyor did not actually "poke through" the fiberglass in the keel sump to look at the wood but by "thumping" in the area found it to indicate a possible problem, and yes you are correct he said it could get worse over time.
This can be a serious problem
Unfortunately many manufacturers from Pearson to Catalina used marine grade plywood to build up the keel stub. The big problem is that there is a 95% chance that the keel stub wood is saturated and rotting and injecting epoxy into a wet cavity does absolutely NOTHING! Keel stubs get it from both sides. Water from outside finds it's way in around the bolt threads eventually and water from the bilge finds it's way in around the threads too thus saturating and rotting the core. I actually had this same problem on my Catalina 30 and had to repair it from the inside by removing all the wood core an re-laminating the keel stub, using directions Catalina sent me. I also dropped & re-bedded the keel at the same time. This is not a fun job! I would question the abilities of your surveyor if he recommended injecting a wood keel stub? The easiest way to find out if the wood is wet is to drill a small core sample near a keel bolt. If the saw dust does not come out white, like new fresh wood, then you need to eventually remove the rotted wood and re-laminate the keel stub. Many people continue to sail with a rotting keel stub but in doing so the run the risk of losing the keel, causing undue strain on the stringers and eventual separation and increased corrosion on the keel bolts. If you want my advice find your self a late 1988 or 1989 model. Catalina stopped putting wood in keel stubs in late 1988 and by 1989 all models had no wood in the keel stub. Honestly it will cost you less to buy a 1989 than it would to pay a yard to do this repair it's a HUGE job and injecting it is not even a band aid unless that core is BONE dry! Based on the fact that your boat is a 1988 I would drill myself a core sample, not to deep, 1/4 inch is enough, and check to see if you actually do have wood. My guess is that a 1988 may not have any wood. If that's the case, and it's solid glass, then drill a series of small holes around the perimeter of the void and one in the center. Then inject some acetone to dry it out and once that has evaporated put a heat lamp on it for a few days. Once the void is dry, this technique will not work with wood unless you have a year to wait, simply buy a few West System syringes and inject from the middle hole until epoxy come out of the perimeter holes.
Unfortunately many manufacturers from Pearson to Catalina used marine grade plywood to build up the keel stub. The big problem is that there is a 95% chance that the keel stub wood is saturated and rotting and injecting epoxy into a wet cavity does absolutely NOTHING! Keel stubs get it from both sides. Water from outside finds it's way in around the bolt threads eventually and water from the bilge finds it's way in around the threads too thus saturating and rotting the core. I actually had this same problem on my Catalina 30 and had to repair it from the inside by removing all the wood core an re-laminating the keel stub, using directions Catalina sent me. I also dropped & re-bedded the keel at the same time. This is not a fun job! I would question the abilities of your surveyor if he recommended injecting a wood keel stub? The easiest way to find out if the wood is wet is to drill a small core sample near a keel bolt. If the saw dust does not come out white, like new fresh wood, then you need to eventually remove the rotted wood and re-laminate the keel stub. Many people continue to sail with a rotting keel stub but in doing so the run the risk of losing the keel, causing undue strain on the stringers and eventual separation and increased corrosion on the keel bolts. If you want my advice find your self a late 1988 or 1989 model. Catalina stopped putting wood in keel stubs in late 1988 and by 1989 all models had no wood in the keel stub. Honestly it will cost you less to buy a 1989 than it would to pay a yard to do this repair it's a HUGE job and injecting it is not even a band aid unless that core is BONE dry! Based on the fact that your boat is a 1988 I would drill myself a core sample, not to deep, 1/4 inch is enough, and check to see if you actually do have wood. My guess is that a 1988 may not have any wood. If that's the case, and it's solid glass, then drill a series of small holes around the perimeter of the void and one in the center. Then inject some acetone to dry it out and once that has evaporated put a heat lamp on it for a few days. Once the void is dry, this technique will not work with wood unless you have a year to wait, simply buy a few West System syringes and inject from the middle hole until epoxy come out of the perimeter holes.
RE:wood core below waterline?
all boats have wood below the water line. What do you think the wood stinger that support the hull are made from. I wouldn't worry about the void area that is a common desgin flaw in many eary boats. Some Hunter also had hollow keel stubs. My Hunter 28 did. Water get into this area and in the winter it freese and crack the fiberglass. Nothing to worry about. These are productions boat with a 30 to 40 year life span. They all have a date with a chain saw coming in the future.
all boats have wood below the water line. What do you think the wood stinger that support the hull are made from. I wouldn't worry about the void area that is a common desgin flaw in many eary boats. Some Hunter also had hollow keel stubs. My Hunter 28 did. Water get into this area and in the winter it freese and crack the fiberglass. Nothing to worry about. These are productions boat with a 30 to 40 year life span. They all have a date with a chain saw coming in the future.
Jim this is just not true..
"all boats have wood below the water line." Jim that statement is NOT true of all boats, the stringers in my particular boat are solid fiber glass. They are U shaped structural glass beams 1.5 inches thick and there is NO wood anywhere below the waterline in my hull. Beyond that an encapsulated wood stringer, done right, has no holes, like a keels stub does for the keel bolts. Many good manufacturers even make the limber hole areas out of a solid glass pour before the stringers are laminated into the boat. Making un-true blanket statements applied to all boats is very misleading for some folks..
"all boats have wood below the water line." Jim that statement is NOT true of all boats, the stringers in my particular boat are solid fiber glass. They are U shaped structural glass beams 1.5 inches thick and there is NO wood anywhere below the waterline in my hull. Beyond that an encapsulated wood stringer, done right, has no holes, like a keels stub does for the keel bolts. Many good manufacturers even make the limber hole areas out of a solid glass pour before the stringers are laminated into the boat. Making un-true blanket statements applied to all boats is very misleading for some folks..
Well built and properly maintained
boats of any material can last several lifetimes. The problem that exists is in the attitude of the boat owners. They allow boats to become rundown and then say that is is better to junk that one and built another rather than follow a comprehensive maintenance plan. The same thing happens with cars and houses. Cars don't wear out all at once. They have small things go bad that are neglected one at a time until a complete repair is very costly. In the meantime the owner is driving an unsatisfactory car and is more than ready to trade it. Houses suffer the same treatment. The time to make a repair is when the problem is found. If you follow the wooden boat forum you soon learn that it is a rare boat that can't be brought back to life and service.
boats of any material can last several lifetimes. The problem that exists is in the attitude of the boat owners. They allow boats to become rundown and then say that is is better to junk that one and built another rather than follow a comprehensive maintenance plan. The same thing happens with cars and houses. Cars don't wear out all at once. They have small things go bad that are neglected one at a time until a complete repair is very costly. In the meantime the owner is driving an unsatisfactory car and is more than ready to trade it. Houses suffer the same treatment. The time to make a repair is when the problem is found. If you follow the wooden boat forum you soon learn that it is a rare boat that can't be brought back to life and service.
Maine Sail Thanks
Thanks for the detailed info on late model Catalina 30's. I will take your suggestion and drill holes; unfortunately I have owned this boat for 1.5 yrs. and only recently changed insurance companies to Boat US insurance which required a survey in order to write a policy. Since this was in the survey they are requireing me to get it fixed at some point in time. My fingers are crossed that my boat does NOT have wood in the keel stub and if it does that its BONE DRY.
Thanks for the detailed info on late model Catalina 30's. I will take your suggestion and drill holes; unfortunately I have owned this boat for 1.5 yrs. and only recently changed insurance companies to Boat US insurance which required a survey in order to write a policy. Since this was in the survey they are requireing me to get it fixed at some point in time. My fingers are crossed that my boat does NOT have wood in the keel stub and if it does that its BONE DRY.
Catalina Smile
Emma, As stated above, many, many Catalinas were made this way (Ply keel subby with stainless bolts glassed into the keel then torqued up as they were 'buttered' with 5200/other sealant) seldom a problem whith these yachts. Is this the best? NO! It depends on the individual vessel, but as above the best (only) pragmatic way to know is to use a 'destructive survey tecnique' commonly calles a "hole saw" the smaller the better, but since doing it be sure to get CLEAR information for the trouble. Who was the surveyor? SAMS or NAMS? Sounds like he was pretty diligent, many would have missed this 'issue'...;-)
Emma, As stated above, many, many Catalinas were made this way (Ply keel subby with stainless bolts glassed into the keel then torqued up as they were 'buttered' with 5200/other sealant) seldom a problem whith these yachts. Is this the best? NO! It depends on the individual vessel, but as above the best (only) pragmatic way to know is to use a 'destructive survey tecnique' commonly calles a "hole saw" the smaller the better, but since doing it be sure to get CLEAR information for the trouble. Who was the surveyor? SAMS or NAMS? Sounds like he was pretty diligent, many would have missed this 'issue'...;-)
Catalina Smile Surveyor
The surveyor was Adrian Johnson of Johnson Marine Services / West Mystic,CT. Yes, he came highly recommended and is a member of: SAMS, ABYC. You seem fairly knowledgeable on the Catalinas; ever hear of a keel coming off because of this?
The surveyor was Adrian Johnson of Johnson Marine Services / West Mystic,CT. Yes, he came highly recommended and is a member of: SAMS, ABYC. You seem fairly knowledgeable on the Catalinas; ever hear of a keel coming off because of this?
Non specific
Emma, He has been with SAMS since 1996 aj@johnsonmarineservices.com I have done mucho research on Catalinas, sailed many, regard them highly, but never owned one. This exact question came up a month ago, and I wrote what experts had told me, articals I'd read, and learned in 40+ years around yachts; NO, never heard of it happening to a Catalina, doesn't mean it can't. I do know personally of a Hunter that had the keep come loose from the stubby and it has happened to other Hunters, and of course plenty of race boats, the Auzzie sled to wit. A Catalina is a fine yacht, not a Swan but not a Hunter either...;-)
Emma, He has been with SAMS since 1996 aj@johnsonmarineservices.com I have done mucho research on Catalinas, sailed many, regard them highly, but never owned one. This exact question came up a month ago, and I wrote what experts had told me, articals I'd read, and learned in 40+ years around yachts; NO, never heard of it happening to a Catalina, doesn't mean it can't. I do know personally of a Hunter that had the keep come loose from the stubby and it has happened to other Hunters, and of course plenty of race boats, the Auzzie sled to wit. A Catalina is a fine yacht, not a Swan but not a Hunter either...;-)
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