Charlie... Greetings from the New Hampshire Seacoast area... I am shopping for a 19-21 foot mini-cruiser in the $2K-$3K price range. Though I have sailed a fair amount, I've never owned a boat, so the issues of blisters, delamination, etc. are all new to me (though I've devoured Casey's book "Inspecting the Aging Sailboat"). Would a professional survey (as a sale contingency) make sense here? Is there such a thing as a "Structural-Only" survey? I don't need a surveyor to tell me a light does not work, or a cushion is frayed or the outboard runs rough. I basically want to know whether the hull, deck and rigging are sound. If not, where are repairs recommended and how extensive? Do people in this "low-end" of the marketplace engage surveyors? Would a surveyor even do a small job like this? How much might such a survey cost on a 20-footer that has been trailered to the surveyor's office/yard? Many Thanks EXTRA CREDIT QUESTION Boats (swing-keelers that will always be trailer-sailed) I'm considering are in the following list. I know that with 70's to early-80s vintage boats, the specific boat and its condition is more important than the make / model. But based on your experience, are there any here you feel are better choices, or choices to avoid simply on the criteria of the boats being "well-built" or having some glaring design flaw? Chrysler C-20 Aquarius 21 Balboa 20 Ensenada 20 American Spirit (Glastron) 6.5 AMF 2100 Gloucester 19 or 20 ODay Mariner (19) or 20 Montego 19 or 20 San Juan 21 Vivacity (twin-keeler)
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yes and no
It sounds like you're on a limited budget...so just take a knowledgable friend along on any boat you've pre-qualified. Chances are that the money you'd sped on a surveyer might be the same price you'd pay to repair the defect. Just carefully examine the boat prior to purchase inch by inch. Good luck
It sounds like you're on a limited budget...so just take a knowledgable friend along on any boat you've pre-qualified. Chances are that the money you'd sped on a surveyer might be the same price you'd pay to repair the defect. Just carefully examine the boat prior to purchase inch by inch. Good luck
Small budget makes it is a good idea?
It seems my ignorance and small budget may be what makes a survey a good idea. I'd hate to spend $2K on a boat only to find it needs another $1K in work... I'd rather spend $200 (??) on a survey for peace-of-mind. I feel almost any survey would provide negotiating points that would allow me to "get back" most or all the survey fee from the seller. As to "knowledgable friends", asking them puts them in a no-win situation. And just how "knowledgable" they are is debatable. I've sailed many many times... but know squat about assessing a boat's structural integrity. So too I suspect it is with many of my sailing friends.
It seems my ignorance and small budget may be what makes a survey a good idea. I'd hate to spend $2K on a boat only to find it needs another $1K in work... I'd rather spend $200 (??) on a survey for peace-of-mind. I feel almost any survey would provide negotiating points that would allow me to "get back" most or all the survey fee from the seller. As to "knowledgable friends", asking them puts them in a no-win situation. And just how "knowledgable" they are is debatable. I've sailed many many times... but know squat about assessing a boat's structural integrity. So too I suspect it is with many of my sailing friends.
Hank, Any reason Catalina 22 isn't listed as possible choice? Don't forget to pay close attention to the trailer. Especially if it's been in salt water. You can almost spend as much on trailer repairs as on boat repairs. Pay special attention to the swing keel also.
Survey
A survey will probably cost you between $10 and $15 per foot -- so about $200. Assuming the boat has the trailer you will not have to pay for a haulout if the trailer is accessible at the time of the survey. Just a note, make sure you inspect the Trailer too. Very important! Tow it down to a local mechanic for a quick inspections of the tires, brakes, etc. Now that you read Casey's book, I think you have an idea of what a Surveyor will (or should) do. You have to assess how comfortable you are doing it yourself or paying the $200 for peace of mind. Another thing to consider is that if you are getting the boat insured they may require a recent survey. You might want to check on that first. Another thing you can try to do is ask the seller if he has a copy of the survey from when he bought the boat. If it wasn't done too long ago you will gain some insight into the boat that without having to shell out the funds. I would make the purchase contingent on a survey. Whether or not you actually have the survey performed doesn't matter. But at least you have that option. Why don't you try doing a practice survey on your friend's boats using what you learned in Casey's book? Then you can share your "finding" with them. As a boat owner, they probably know about most of the boat's existing problems. They should be able to tell you if you found most of the issues. Or maybe even better -- they might have an actual survey that was performed recently that you could score yourself against. And try to get your hands on a few actual surveys. You may not be all that impressed with the actual report. If you have to, call up a prospective surveyor and tell him you are interested in using his services in the future but you would like to read a couple of his past reports on boats that are similar to what you are looking for. This will give you an idea of how thorough the surveyor is and how valuable the report he issues is. Finally, try to purchase the boat from an owner that seems to have a sincere love for the boat. When you talk to him you will be able to see if he is passionate about the boat. Is the boat clean? Are the docklines neat and tidy? Does he seem like he really took care of the boat? Will he be there after the sale to answer all of the questions you will undoubtably have. Will he help you set it up the first time? I can't tell you how important this is for a first time boat buyer. And a good seller wants to sell his boat to a buyer that will take care of his boat. Good luck, Paul O'Day 23
A survey will probably cost you between $10 and $15 per foot -- so about $200. Assuming the boat has the trailer you will not have to pay for a haulout if the trailer is accessible at the time of the survey. Just a note, make sure you inspect the Trailer too. Very important! Tow it down to a local mechanic for a quick inspections of the tires, brakes, etc. Now that you read Casey's book, I think you have an idea of what a Surveyor will (or should) do. You have to assess how comfortable you are doing it yourself or paying the $200 for peace of mind. Another thing to consider is that if you are getting the boat insured they may require a recent survey. You might want to check on that first. Another thing you can try to do is ask the seller if he has a copy of the survey from when he bought the boat. If it wasn't done too long ago you will gain some insight into the boat that without having to shell out the funds. I would make the purchase contingent on a survey. Whether or not you actually have the survey performed doesn't matter. But at least you have that option. Why don't you try doing a practice survey on your friend's boats using what you learned in Casey's book? Then you can share your "finding" with them. As a boat owner, they probably know about most of the boat's existing problems. They should be able to tell you if you found most of the issues. Or maybe even better -- they might have an actual survey that was performed recently that you could score yourself against. And try to get your hands on a few actual surveys. You may not be all that impressed with the actual report. If you have to, call up a prospective surveyor and tell him you are interested in using his services in the future but you would like to read a couple of his past reports on boats that are similar to what you are looking for. This will give you an idea of how thorough the surveyor is and how valuable the report he issues is. Finally, try to purchase the boat from an owner that seems to have a sincere love for the boat. When you talk to him you will be able to see if he is passionate about the boat. Is the boat clean? Are the docklines neat and tidy? Does he seem like he really took care of the boat? Will he be there after the sale to answer all of the questions you will undoubtably have. Will he help you set it up the first time? I can't tell you how important this is for a first time boat buyer. And a good seller wants to sell his boat to a buyer that will take care of his boat. Good luck, Paul O'Day 23
Contact me
Hank, it would be in your interest to contact me on this subject. Use "Survey a $2500 Trailer Sailboat" as the subject line; I delete most of my email before opening it. If it says "Hi" or something like that, I just don't bother. elephantfly@core.com
Hank, it would be in your interest to contact me on this subject. Use "Survey a $2500 Trailer Sailboat" as the subject line; I delete most of my email before opening it. If it says "Hi" or something like that, I just don't bother. elephantfly@core.com
Survey was helpful
I had a survey done on my Oday 23 (I paid $5500) before I bought it, and it was very helpful and worth the money (about $200). My surveyor gave me a special price because of the simplicity of the boat systems. It was worth the $200 to me to get a clean bill of health for the boat from someone who has forgotten more than I'll ever know about fiberglass boat construction. I also got a punch list of things that needed attention and some other maintenance items. Nothing that affected the price, but still things that I wouldn't have known enough to look for (at least not right away). Now, I feel I know enough that I would feel comfortable buying a small boat without a survey, but back then? No way.
I had a survey done on my Oday 23 (I paid $5500) before I bought it, and it was very helpful and worth the money (about $200). My surveyor gave me a special price because of the simplicity of the boat systems. It was worth the $200 to me to get a clean bill of health for the boat from someone who has forgotten more than I'll ever know about fiberglass boat construction. I also got a punch list of things that needed attention and some other maintenance items. Nothing that affected the price, but still things that I wouldn't have known enough to look for (at least not right away). Now, I feel I know enough that I would feel comfortable buying a small boat without a survey, but back then? No way.
Survey
Hank a survey is always a good idea. I can't tell you how many ties I have heard " I didn't have my last boat surveyd and boy was I sorry. Yes, survey will tell you about possible structural problems such as water instrusion, steering mechanisms, and even the outboard you have on it. They will make sure the boat is safe and ready to use for its intended use. There were a lot of good points in the relies above. Take a look at the maintenance records of the boat, how clean it is, and if the owner is passionte about it. I surveyed a boat today that the owners log measured how much fuel he used per hour on each trip (powerboat)and had incredable maintenance records. That was strong indication that this boat was well taken care of. As far as sthe cost of your survey, call around that is going to vary with geographical areas. Here in the lower New York a prepurchase survey starts around $400.00 Good luck If there is anything else I can do just give a shout Charlie
Hank a survey is always a good idea. I can't tell you how many ties I have heard " I didn't have my last boat surveyd and boy was I sorry. Yes, survey will tell you about possible structural problems such as water instrusion, steering mechanisms, and even the outboard you have on it. They will make sure the boat is safe and ready to use for its intended use. There were a lot of good points in the relies above. Take a look at the maintenance records of the boat, how clean it is, and if the owner is passionte about it. I surveyed a boat today that the owners log measured how much fuel he used per hour on each trip (powerboat)and had incredable maintenance records. That was strong indication that this boat was well taken care of. As far as sthe cost of your survey, call around that is going to vary with geographical areas. Here in the lower New York a prepurchase survey starts around $400.00 Good luck If there is anything else I can do just give a shout Charlie
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