Fellow sailing addicts, I have to admit, I have had a small case of 2-foot-itus (or rather 3-foot-itus) for a year or so. I've had my O'Day 222 for five years, and love it. I keep it for most of the summer on a small inland lake in Wisconsin, and have trailered it around a bit (Table Rock lake in Branson, Kentucky Lake, Seneca Lake in NY). I also put it on Lake Michigan, mainly in Door County for a week or two each summer and sail with a friend or with family members (no more than 3 on the boat for extended periods thus far). The boat has served me well for what I have wanted to do with it thus far, although it does get a little cramped for even two people for extended periods of time. Recently, I must admit that I have "lusted in my heart" for a bigger trailerable boat, such as the centerboard version of the 25 foot O'Day or the Catalina 25. The new goal would be to spend more time on Lake Michigan, and I would likely get a slip on Lake Michigan for the season. I would still pull it to other lakes however (e.g., Apostle Islands on Superior, Kentucky lake, etc). I would be interested in hearing from those who have upgraded to a 25ft trailerable boat from a boat in the 20-22 ft. range. Specifically: 1. Are there substantial differences in the hassle factor of setup/teardown? Note that both my wife and me are in the 5'6'' range. 2. Are the overall annual expenses on maintenance comparable? 3. My tow vehicle will handle up to 7,000 lbs which is within the limits of either 25 footer, but are there other towing issues to consider? 4. Are there features of the smaller boat that you preferred? 5. What would you consider to be the primary advantages of the larger boat? 6. Other issues? I would appreciate any help or insight that anyone might provide. Thanks. Dave s/v Hakuna Matata O'Day 222
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22 to 25 major break!
Dave, 23 to 27 might be better. I have not taken that step. I owned a 23 Paceship and bought a "78" O'Day 25 Cb. From the "78" O'Day 25 CB I went to a "79" O'Day 25 CB. At the 22 range, 3'itus is the best. At 25' the head room starts about 5'-6" ( 27' are about 6' Headroom) Answers to your questions: 1. The 5'-6" headroom would be a plus. I am 5'-11 and still like the5'-6" headroom. Mostly because the Admirable is 5'-2". More hassel: yes, about 15# of mastweight. The rigging is basically the same and the mast is 30' instead of 24-26'. 2. Annual maintainance like rebedding is about the same but bottom paint is 3'x $30 more for the work. New sails are a percentage of sail area more expensive when replacing them. Dock/mooring is 3' x the $/foot price that you pay now. 3. I have a 1 ton Chevy Van that Pulls the approx. 6500 to 7000# (loaded w/trailer) quite well. Most 25's are 8' beams so permits for towing is not an issue. 27' boats usually have a 9' beam which requires permits in many states. 4. No. The only thing that I missed was the Previous Owner of my 23 Paceship installed great hardware that was not on the 25 O'Day. I have had to up grade hardware occassionaly. Then again, the 23 did manuver a bit quicker than the 25. 5. HEADROOM! Sit-up Head space! 6. When you hit a 25' boat you start thinking cruising and you will spend money on knot/depth finders/ battery chargers/ other stuff that you should think twice about installing. My wife did not like the 23 Paceship due to head room. She was on that boat 4 times in 4 years.Since I bought the first 25, rare is the time she misses that she is available to be on the boat. She has now developed a feel for our boat in wind over 6 knots and loves her turn on the helm. We share jib and helm work. The upper side has the helm and the lower side has the jib. The one thing that I would not give up is a draft less than 3'. My wife and I love to tuck into those gunkholes that others have a hard time with. r.w.landau
Dave, 23 to 27 might be better. I have not taken that step. I owned a 23 Paceship and bought a "78" O'Day 25 Cb. From the "78" O'Day 25 CB I went to a "79" O'Day 25 CB. At the 22 range, 3'itus is the best. At 25' the head room starts about 5'-6" ( 27' are about 6' Headroom) Answers to your questions: 1. The 5'-6" headroom would be a plus. I am 5'-11 and still like the5'-6" headroom. Mostly because the Admirable is 5'-2". More hassel: yes, about 15# of mastweight. The rigging is basically the same and the mast is 30' instead of 24-26'. 2. Annual maintainance like rebedding is about the same but bottom paint is 3'x $30 more for the work. New sails are a percentage of sail area more expensive when replacing them. Dock/mooring is 3' x the $/foot price that you pay now. 3. I have a 1 ton Chevy Van that Pulls the approx. 6500 to 7000# (loaded w/trailer) quite well. Most 25's are 8' beams so permits for towing is not an issue. 27' boats usually have a 9' beam which requires permits in many states. 4. No. The only thing that I missed was the Previous Owner of my 23 Paceship installed great hardware that was not on the 25 O'Day. I have had to up grade hardware occassionaly. Then again, the 23 did manuver a bit quicker than the 25. 5. HEADROOM! Sit-up Head space! 6. When you hit a 25' boat you start thinking cruising and you will spend money on knot/depth finders/ battery chargers/ other stuff that you should think twice about installing. My wife did not like the 23 Paceship due to head room. She was on that boat 4 times in 4 years.Since I bought the first 25, rare is the time she misses that she is available to be on the boat. She has now developed a feel for our boat in wind over 6 knots and loves her turn on the helm. We share jib and helm work. The upper side has the helm and the lower side has the jib. The one thing that I would not give up is a draft less than 3'. My wife and I love to tuck into those gunkholes that others have a hard time with. r.w.landau
look at the O'Day 26
Dave, if you want to go for the biggest allowable trailorable boat (and stay with an O'Day) look at a 26. Nice boat for taking around behind your vehicle. Mike C. O'28 "Da Capo"
Dave, if you want to go for the biggest allowable trailorable boat (and stay with an O'Day) look at a 26. Nice boat for taking around behind your vehicle. Mike C. O'28 "Da Capo"
trailer sailors
A friend of mine has a 26'clipper marine sail boat. He belongs to a group loosely called "trailer sailors". I don't know if they have a web site or are otherwise organised beyong the local level but they are quite active in the Michigan area. They have regular meetings, plan trips (via trailer) to the North Channel and generally support one another in the sport of sailing. Beyond that you can look at some fairly large vessels which are water ballasted and are quite light when towed and the water ballast is drained from the ballast compartments. I know that Hunter and Catalina have some nice size boats with full head room and will trailer well with a medium duty vehicle. Look around the internet for the trailer sailor group. They will be sure to have lots of info on larger trailerables. Mike PS I have a 28' O'day myself. Not trailerable but the entire O'day line are very fine boats.
A friend of mine has a 26'clipper marine sail boat. He belongs to a group loosely called "trailer sailors". I don't know if they have a web site or are otherwise organised beyong the local level but they are quite active in the Michigan area. They have regular meetings, plan trips (via trailer) to the North Channel and generally support one another in the sport of sailing. Beyond that you can look at some fairly large vessels which are water ballasted and are quite light when towed and the water ballast is drained from the ballast compartments. I know that Hunter and Catalina have some nice size boats with full head room and will trailer well with a medium duty vehicle. Look around the internet for the trailer sailor group. They will be sure to have lots of info on larger trailerables. Mike PS I have a 28' O'day myself. Not trailerable but the entire O'day line are very fine boats.
how long does it take?
Dave, How long does it take you to set up or break down your O'Day 222? It takes me around 60 minutes to prep my Cat 22 and there MUST be a better way, or is that a good average time? Thanks the saint
Dave, How long does it take you to set up or break down your O'Day 222? It takes me around 60 minutes to prep my Cat 22 and there MUST be a better way, or is that a good average time? Thanks the saint
"Dry Sail It"
Dave- I've owned both a Catalina 22 and 25. The 25 swing keel was in Chicago and required the use of a dingy to a star dock. I moved the boat Racine and dry sailed it off the trailer every weekend and even stored it there during the winter. The marina was "Pugh's" and I don't know if they are still in business. They had tow vehicles that you used to in/out and plenty of parking plus a ship's store for those extra needs. There was restaurants available for those raining days and easy access to Lake Michigan. You could go north to Milwaukee, Door County or south tho Waukegan and Chicago. Logically speaking, 95% of your time will be on the lake. In dry sailing it's cheaper than a dock and took only 30 minutes to put in or pull out. You can work on the boat on land if needed. I found that even with the weather being bad, I wanted to be around the boat or go over to the restaurant/bar and throw back a couple of "Brewski's." Good Sailing...
Dave- I've owned both a Catalina 22 and 25. The 25 swing keel was in Chicago and required the use of a dingy to a star dock. I moved the boat Racine and dry sailed it off the trailer every weekend and even stored it there during the winter. The marina was "Pugh's" and I don't know if they are still in business. They had tow vehicles that you used to in/out and plenty of parking plus a ship's store for those extra needs. There was restaurants available for those raining days and easy access to Lake Michigan. You could go north to Milwaukee, Door County or south tho Waukegan and Chicago. Logically speaking, 95% of your time will be on the lake. In dry sailing it's cheaper than a dock and took only 30 minutes to put in or pull out. You can work on the boat on land if needed. I found that even with the weather being bad, I wanted to be around the boat or go over to the restaurant/bar and throw back a couple of "Brewski's." Good Sailing...
Just did this
Late Friday night I arrived home with our new to us 1982 25 foot Oday.We have been sailing a 1973 Catalina 22.The girlfriend immediatlefelt safer even though we haven't even been in the water yet.The three feet provided more head as well as privacy using the head.Really important to the women folk.The biggest thing that I noticed was the weight .We went from about 2300 to 4600 pounds.These are manufacture's spec.By the way 20 minutes is all it takes us from the time we pull into the lot until the time we are off the trailer.About a half hour if I'm by my self.
Late Friday night I arrived home with our new to us 1982 25 foot Oday.We have been sailing a 1973 Catalina 22.The girlfriend immediatlefelt safer even though we haven't even been in the water yet.The three feet provided more head as well as privacy using the head.Really important to the women folk.The biggest thing that I noticed was the weight .We went from about 2300 to 4600 pounds.These are manufacture's spec.By the way 20 minutes is all it takes us from the time we pull into the lot until the time we are off the trailer.About a half hour if I'm by my self.
Launching
I was wondering about the ease of launching the boats that are being discussed. I know some people tend to use their trailerable boats less and less as time goes by and wonder if one of the reasons is the hassle of getting the boat into the water? Any input would be appreciated.
I was wondering about the ease of launching the boats that are being discussed. I know some people tend to use their trailerable boats less and less as time goes by and wonder if one of the reasons is the hassle of getting the boat into the water? Any input would be appreciated.
Feedback appreciated!
Thanks for the feedback. In terms of time for lauch/retrieval, it typically takes me 90 minutes to launch and 60-90 to retrieve. I could probably get the process further refined so that its even easier, although I consider 60 minutes to be a good time for me. Timm, I would love to see how you do this so quickly on an even larger boat. Are you in dry storage? Since the 222 is on a mooring most of the summer, I don't do this very often. Also, while I take it other places, the boat is always in the water at the destination at least 3 days. Otherwise, it would not be worth the hassle in my estimation. I think dry storage is a good second-best solution to having a slip. A good friend of mine did dry storage for years, and it was no more than 10-15 minutes to splash/retrieve the boat and we sailed his boat often. Interpreting the feedback thus far on whether the additional hassles and other costs are outweighed by the benefits, it appears that those who made this jump conclude that the benefits do outweigh the costs (with headroom and enclosed head being important considerations). Also, I should look at a range of other boat options. I'll keep all these insights in mind. Thanks to everyone for their input, and I would love to hear from others if they have additional thoughts on this. Thanks again for the feedback! Dave s/v Hakuna Matata O'Day 222
Thanks for the feedback. In terms of time for lauch/retrieval, it typically takes me 90 minutes to launch and 60-90 to retrieve. I could probably get the process further refined so that its even easier, although I consider 60 minutes to be a good time for me. Timm, I would love to see how you do this so quickly on an even larger boat. Are you in dry storage? Since the 222 is on a mooring most of the summer, I don't do this very often. Also, while I take it other places, the boat is always in the water at the destination at least 3 days. Otherwise, it would not be worth the hassle in my estimation. I think dry storage is a good second-best solution to having a slip. A good friend of mine did dry storage for years, and it was no more than 10-15 minutes to splash/retrieve the boat and we sailed his boat often. Interpreting the feedback thus far on whether the additional hassles and other costs are outweighed by the benefits, it appears that those who made this jump conclude that the benefits do outweigh the costs (with headroom and enclosed head being important considerations). Also, I should look at a range of other boat options. I'll keep all these insights in mind. Thanks to everyone for their input, and I would love to hear from others if they have additional thoughts on this. Thanks again for the feedback! Dave s/v Hakuna Matata O'Day 222
Launch time makes a difference
In response to kkb... I have a Hunter 240. I really enjoy the boat, but for a variety of reasons I am now at a point where I have to sail singlehanded. I don't mind sailing the boat by myself, but retrieval is a devil. Also, in my case, each time I want to sail I have a little over an hours drive to get to the launch site, a little over an hour for setup, then I get to sail. At the end of sailing, there is another hour for take down, and another hour to drive home. Over time it gets old. If you can keep a boat in the water most of the time it makes a BIG difference. I am currently selling my H240 to get a smaller boat that I can handle better by myself.
In response to kkb... I have a Hunter 240. I really enjoy the boat, but for a variety of reasons I am now at a point where I have to sail singlehanded. I don't mind sailing the boat by myself, but retrieval is a devil. Also, in my case, each time I want to sail I have a little over an hours drive to get to the launch site, a little over an hour for setup, then I get to sail. At the end of sailing, there is another hour for take down, and another hour to drive home. Over time it gets old. If you can keep a boat in the water most of the time it makes a BIG difference. I am currently selling my H240 to get a smaller boat that I can handle better by myself.
Movin' On Up!
Hi Dave, I feel your pain. We started out on an Ensenada 20 and loved that boat. Sailed really well, lovely hull lines, and flush deck provided for a huge fore deck and cabin for a boat of its size. After a few years we found that we enjoyed extended cruising and bigger water, and realized we needed a bigger boat. We went on a 3 year search, comparing specifications and looking at boats. Due to some of the bad press we heard from various people we didn't even consider a MacGregor...initially. Our criteria was that we wanted a boat that was still a very good sailer, with a very large cabin, with very shallow draft, an all out towing weight of less than 3500 pounds, in excellent (show room) condition, and within our budget. This really limited our the possibilities, so after 2 years we started looking at MacGregor 26 classics in our search. After another year of searching we found SeaQuell. Compared to the Ensenada 20, with the Mac 26D we gained... 1. Much faster (7.4 vs 5.4 mph hull speed). 2. Further weekend destinations (due to speed) 3. A lot more roomy. (Comfortable for two people to be in for an entire rainy day.) 4. EAsier launch/retrieve. (15" vs 25" of water to launch) 5. A lot easier to rig. (Climb up the swim ladder instead of a step ladder.) 6. Much better wave handling. (Starts pounding on a beat in 6 ft chop instead of 4.) 7. Slightly lighter towing weight. (2700 lbs vs 3000 lbs, due to lighter trailer.) 8. Lateral trailer bunks (easier bottom painting) 9. Seperate cockpit locker (and cavernous) 10. Fleet support (Lots of easily available resources for this popular boat.) Compared to the Ensenada 20, moving to the Mac26D we lost: 1. Stiffness (Now start reefing at 10 knots intead of 12.) 2. Build quality (A dozen small FRP/gelcoat voids, less expensive hardware.) 3. Uniqueness (few people familiar with E20's) 4. Sailing groove (that characteristic at 17 degrees heel that Lyle Hess was so famous for.) 5. Capital (cost about double to move up.) All in all, we are so glad we got past all the negative nonsense we heard from so many non-owners. After 2 weeks of cruising we find ourselves wanting to continue instead of feeling we've already overdone it by a few days. Worth every penny and much, much more.
Hi Dave, I feel your pain. We started out on an Ensenada 20 and loved that boat. Sailed really well, lovely hull lines, and flush deck provided for a huge fore deck and cabin for a boat of its size. After a few years we found that we enjoyed extended cruising and bigger water, and realized we needed a bigger boat. We went on a 3 year search, comparing specifications and looking at boats. Due to some of the bad press we heard from various people we didn't even consider a MacGregor...initially. Our criteria was that we wanted a boat that was still a very good sailer, with a very large cabin, with very shallow draft, an all out towing weight of less than 3500 pounds, in excellent (show room) condition, and within our budget. This really limited our the possibilities, so after 2 years we started looking at MacGregor 26 classics in our search. After another year of searching we found SeaQuell. Compared to the Ensenada 20, with the Mac 26D we gained... 1. Much faster (7.4 vs 5.4 mph hull speed). 2. Further weekend destinations (due to speed) 3. A lot more roomy. (Comfortable for two people to be in for an entire rainy day.) 4. EAsier launch/retrieve. (15" vs 25" of water to launch) 5. A lot easier to rig. (Climb up the swim ladder instead of a step ladder.) 6. Much better wave handling. (Starts pounding on a beat in 6 ft chop instead of 4.) 7. Slightly lighter towing weight. (2700 lbs vs 3000 lbs, due to lighter trailer.) 8. Lateral trailer bunks (easier bottom painting) 9. Seperate cockpit locker (and cavernous) 10. Fleet support (Lots of easily available resources for this popular boat.) Compared to the Ensenada 20, moving to the Mac26D we lost: 1. Stiffness (Now start reefing at 10 knots intead of 12.) 2. Build quality (A dozen small FRP/gelcoat voids, less expensive hardware.) 3. Uniqueness (few people familiar with E20's) 4. Sailing groove (that characteristic at 17 degrees heel that Lyle Hess was so famous for.) 5. Capital (cost about double to move up.) All in all, we are so glad we got past all the negative nonsense we heard from so many non-owners. After 2 weeks of cruising we find ourselves wanting to continue instead of feeling we've already overdone it by a few days. Worth every penny and much, much more.
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