Suggestions please for a stiffer boat

[centerline]

I read enough of, but not all of replies to the OP, and they are pretty much correct...
but a stiffer boat?.... that leaves a lot open to the imagination. how about going to a 30 footer or larger? they will be stiffer...
what has to be understood is that you have a 21foot boat and it can only take so much wind with all the sails up.. and the same is true for a 30footer or any other size of boat.... any boat can only take so much canvas in a given wind.

you have a weighted swing keel and lots of sail area for a small boat, so you have to learn to reef.... the boat will go just as fast, and quite possibly much faster with less sail in the air, because... a boat is made to sail best when standing up, and, if you stay steady on the wind and a steady degree of heel, the boat will remain at a steady speed... and if reefed properly for the conditions, the majority of a gust has some chance to blow around you rather than thru you, meaning it will cause you less grief everytime it puffs up..... while the boat keeps going

the Cal 21 is a decently designed, and nice sailing boat (there are a lot worse you could buy on the budget you mention) it carrys more sail than the Cal 20, so the need to reef may be more necessary until you learn the boat, and get the rigging balanced so it can sail at its peak performance.
but if you expect too much from any boat that is being pushed too hard for the conditions, you will be disappointed.
learn the limits of the boat, and of yourself, and sail it.... I think you would be impressed with its ability.

 

[jimshipsky]

Thanks Centerline! I hear you.
I was out this morning: main and working jib. Blowing maybe 8 mph; gusting 14-16.
Sailed a beam reach 3 + miles down the lake, at hull speed the whole time, decided I love this boat (Cal 21) just as she is.
Probly will love her even more with newer sails.
Thanks to all who responded to my now-released misgivings about my boats stiffness.

 

[centerline]

before thinking about new sails, see how it points when sailing on the wind...
i will agree that the original sails were not built to the highest standards, but a lot of boats dont get sailed that much, or that hard to wear out the sails... some do, but a lot dont...
and perfect sails are really only necessary on racing boats. the rest of us can have our fun with old blown out sails and keep our money in the bank..

 

[FastOlson]

There is a part of these replies that needs to be addressed. First, even high dollar AC boats may not always have "perfect" sails. And, well-cut sails with efficient shaping are equally needed on all sail boats, whether they ever show up at a racing start line or not.
It is odd bit & all too common that such advice exists at all. After all, it's like having a mechanic tell you that you engine only needs to run on 5 of its 6 cylinders as long as you are not racing your car. Sheesh.

That example might seem silly, but it's just as true for the wind-powered 'engine' on your boat. If your old sails are actually blown out, get a recut or if the cloth is too far gone, a new sail.
It's not complicated, and yes it costs some money. when you buy an old hull and spars on the cheap, plan for putting sails on. The prior owner(s) probably looked up and decided that sail cloth attached at all the normal corners was... Just Fine !!
If you find a super-cheap deal on a classic car body, there's zero surprise when you have to rebuild the drive train, replace the brakes, and replace the rotted tires...

Floating "projects" are not much different financially than rolling "projects."
The one expensive difference with boats is that the marine environment decays/degrades everything a LOT faster than any old car stored inside a dry barn.

Somewhere out there is a boat (grimly) named "Entropy" ....

Loren

 

[jssailem]

keep our money in the bank..

Centerline... your just getting his hopes up. We all know that boat money is never saved. It is just delayed spending.

 

[jssailem]

Entropy

Your boat's name is "the degree of disorder or randomness in the system"

 

[justsomeguy]

Your boat's name is "the degree of disorder or randomness in the system"

That's the optimistic definition.

 

[jssailem]

I know. But Phil said we need to be nice on his forum..

 

[justsomeguy]

All boats are entropic.
And, FWIW, we fight entropy almost every damned day.

I've heard that the second law of thermodynamics negates the possibility of time travel into the past. Entropy, you know.

 

[centerline]

It is odd bit & all too common that such advice exists at all. After all, it's like having a mechanic tell you that you engine only needs to run on 5 of its 6 cylinders as long as you are not racing your car. Sheesh.

you sound like you might be a sailmaker
we have no idea of the conditions of his sails, but an engine running on 5 of 6 cylinders is a much more serious thing than a wore out, but usable sail.. unless you're racing.
my opinion, an old boat with many issues that need tending to, and yet the sails it has are still working to some reasonable extent, the sails are the last thing that should be considered for replacing/upgrading....
if fun can still be had with the canvas it has, spending 2grand on new sails isnt going to give and additional 2grand of fun... unless your racing.
and new sails wont make the boat safer, drier, more dependable or more comfortable, and depending on the quality of the new "affordable" sails one would buy, it may not make it sail any better than it does now... money spent on other upgrades could make it a better boat, even if it is lagging behind the "fast" boats..

 

[Brian S]

When you want a boat that is a little stiffer you might want to look at a shoal keel with center board. They can put more ballast in the keel to make it stiffer and the centerboard still helps with pointing. The Precision 21, that I sail, is that configuration and is about the same size as the boat that you have now. O'day 192 and 222 are similar style boats. Newer Com-pac boats are also shoal keel with centerboard.

I have a 192, and I have sailed a Precision 21 several times, so I'm not picking on Tom G here. However, on average, a boat with ballast down low will have more resistance to heeling. For this reason, we have sportboats with bulbed, deep, high aspect keels. Boats like the 192 and P-21, with a ballasted shoal keel will need to add more ballast to get the same righting moment that a fin keel boat with less ballast would have. And a bulbed, deep, high aspect keel would need less ballast. But that's not the whole story, because form stability also comes into play. For example, many of the new boat designs from Hunter, Beneteau, etc, have very wide transoms and buttocks. Part of the reason is to make more interior space for berths and such, but the wide sterns also resist heeling. Problem is, such boat designs don't have the same "sea-kindly" motion that a more rounded, pinched stern old fashioned style boat would (think older CCA rule boats.) It's always a trade off.

Note that I have sailed my 192 in very gusty winds, where I would normally allow her to heel and "wash the toe rail." One time, it was such a lifted gust while I was close hauled, I went well beyond the toe rail, and had water pour over the (admittedly low) cockpit coaming. Yep, I tucked in a reef and was much more quick to steer to a pinch that day!

 

[jimshipsky]

I posted a query on another sailing forum regarding the location and length of my jib car tracks, to best trim jibs of different sizes. Some of the responses were of the character (I exaggerate slightly), "Oh, don't worry about trimming your sails. Just schlep around and have fun."
I can understand that some sailors are fine with that approach. I'm not dissing them.
But for me, sailing is a form of flying, at the interface of two fluids: air and water. I want my "flying" to be graceful, beautiful, inspiring, joyful and satisfying. I don't want to fly ugly. Investing in better sails will bring me more joy. Money well spent!

 

[Meriachee]

At the risk of causing the thread to take a serious left turn, and an equal risk of offending any purists among us, a completely bagged mainsail would have much more noticeable effect on a smaller boat than a larger one. That's not to suggest the overall effect is different, it's not, just that getting the small boat to "go" is harder.
Money doesn't need to be spent on new sails if the sails can be recut, but that has to be weighed against the condition of the sail, and ultimately the cost of any repairs and recut. If a new sail is only a couple of hundred bucks more than a repair/recut, it's probably a mute argument.

 

[jssailem]

Yes. Would it be possible if the two points in time were at an equilibrium state?

 

[Meriachee]

Equilibrium seems to end someplace between exiting the car and stepping on the first dock board at the boat sales centre. It's all (and no tide pun intended) downhill from there.

 

[jssailem]

Downhill yes.. But what a wild ride.

Suggestion - How to establish boat bucks... Mothers day flowers. Do dishes with out being asked. Complete last college payment then transfer that to boat bucks account. Hope Admiral uses the new math method of checking the balance.

 

[jssailem]

Sorry Jim.. My comments have drifted. In my defense... Justsomeguy got me started.