Suggestions please for a stiffer boat

[jimshipsky]

Last summer I stepped up from a Siren 17 to a Cal 21. The improvement in performance is wonderful. I love this Lapworth design. Still . . . in sudden big gusts, my lee rail threatens to submerge. I ease the main or pinch up. Some days I sail with only the mainsail--flying a jib would overpower the boat. Now I have the better-boat disease!
I paid $750 for my Cal--much of the (structural) interior plywood was rotted-- I spent about a month rebuilding. I enjoy working on sailboats. With her swing keel I can trailer-launch, avoiding the yard costs of launching, hauling, storage. The Cal trailer has a telescoping tongue, which I don't need to use on the ramp where I launch, but it has me thinking I could use a trailer like that to launch a fixed-keel boat drawing 4'-5'. I day-sail from a mooring.
So, I'm wondering what boats are out there, likely built in the 60s and 70s, like my Cal, below $1000, that can handle heavier winds. I'm looking for a lot of lead way down low.

 

[jssailem]

Jim. Not sure what is your goal. Speed? Flat sailing boat?
If wind is to strong for boat reduce sail. Boat will still sail up to hull speed. Your boat has a swing keel with 360 lbs of iron dangling beneth the hull. If the boat healing is the issue then maybe a catamaran with two pontoons is a solution. Yet all of the hobbie cat owners I have met are only happy when they are flying along with one pontoon in the air.

 

[Ken Cross]

With reference to the title notice what was not said...............
It sounds like you sail in an area with predominantly strong winds. If that's the case I think I would be considering changing sails rather than changing the boat. A heavy storm sail and or an 80% or smaller jib and double reefed main????

And make sure that keel is locked down. Otherwise if you turtle the keel slams back in the trunk and you have no righting moment.

Ken

 

[CloudDiver]

You put a lot of work into an old 17 foot boat to fix rotting wood... but you like to work on boats. Sounds like you might have a good work space for it. Have you considered building a new boat? There are several designs out the for 22 foot and smaller sailboats that can be built in several methods. If you want something stiff, designed with a fair amount lead down low, the i550 Sportboat had a lifting keel with a lead bulb. Plywood construction sealed with epoxy and fiberglass... to make it as stiff as possible and light, use S glass instead of E glass and some strategically placed unidirectional carbon tape.

 

[All U Get]

How baggy are the sails? We added full battens to keep the main flatter on our previous boat. Are you sailing solo?

All U Get

 

[agprice22]

I agree with others... Stiffer sails and a better sail selection, so you can reduce power makes more sense than changing boats. That said, maybe by STIFFER, you mean more STABLE. In that case, a bigger boat may serve that need. My wife certainly likes that our 272 has more weight and stability in the water than our C22. However, any boat will bury the rail in a strong enough wind, so reducing sail still leads to less power and less heel.

 

[Bad Obsession]

It may not be a boat problem. I agree with others about reducing sail etc. Besides, it is hard to find a trailer sailor that is stiff. The larger you go on the trailer sailor spectrum the harder it is to set up the rig and tow it. You may end up keeping her in a slip if you go up too much. I couldn't imagine breaking down my Compac 23 everytime I use it.

 

[vhoisington]

So, sailing with the rail in the water is not necessarily a bad thing. Some day's its pretty exciting. That being said, new sails, traveler, reefing and 90% jib will help to keep her on her feet. Most boats, will reach a point were they seem to harden up. My Hunter 25 would go to about 45% and then just stop, I never could get the rail in the water. It really didn't matter if the wind was 20 or 45mph.

Your swing keel boats are a little more tender than a fixed keel but, even then they will almost always take more than you can handle. I like to go out in heavy air and practice, (different combinations of reefing, traveler setup, jib setup etc.) to understand more about what my boat will take and how she handles when the wind is up. Knowing her limits give me more confidence I can handle what the gods present

 

[jimshipsky]

Thanks folks!
Primarily what I'm after is a stiffer boat--one that stays flatter, especially in gusts. Maybe 'stable' is a good synonym? I sail Messalonskee Lake in Maine. There are places on the lake where the wind gets channeled between an island and shore, and gusts in there are, well, exciting. I usually single-hand.
I do adjust sails according to wind speed: fly my working jib instead of the genny, or fly no jib at all.
Yes, I do like speed. I spent several years racing, crewing on International 210s. As I recall, the 210, with 1145 lb. of ballast, mostly in the bulb, handles gusts gracefully. Years ago my favorite instructor had a saying: 'Flat is fast.' So that's another reason I'd like a boat that stands up to stronger winds and gusts.
As far as building a new boat this size, no thanks. This past winter I built a Bolger/Payson 'Cartopper' in my workshop, to use as my tender, but that's about as large as I'd like to go.
Yes, my sails are probably baggy. Without a new sail to compare, I have no metric. A new cruising mainsail goes for $700-$1000, which is what I paid for the boat with trailer, main, jib, genoa. I will be shopping for better, less baggy used sails soon in Portland, ME. Wish I knew how to know if a used sail is less baggy than my current ones.

 

[jssailem]

Jim
Try this link... https://stingysailor.com/2015/09/12/how-to-breathe-new-life-into-that-baggy-old-sail-2/
Go to a sail loft and ask them to explain the concept. They will likely let you see and touch sails that are new and old, flat and baggy. One experience and your gonig to I knew that....

 

[jimshipsky]

John,
Thanks for that link! I probably will raise the bolt rope on some of my sails, once I observe the effect of shrunken bolt ropes.
Just to be clear, are you saying that when I'm able to handle used sails, it will be head-bangingly obvious which are flat and which are baggy?

 

[jimshipsky]

vhoisington: thanks for your post!
My Cal 21 also heels to a certain angle and then "hardens up". Thinking about the forces involved, I see the keel can't exert much righting moment at slight heel angles. But as heel angle increases, the righting moment increases.
Maybe instead of a different boat, I just need to get comfortable with that 'harden up' degree of heel.

 

[FastOlson]

It might help to consider that you bought a fixer-upper-hull. Sails were not much a usable part of the deal!

You will be amazed (!) at the difference a flatter main will make. Same for a head sail with a proper draft shape.
Whether this can be done with a recut of the existing main or a new one is knowledge gained when visiting a sailmaker. Further, do not shy away from checking with a "name brand" sailmaker. Those big national "names" will have reasonable-price dacron models for your boat and often have a trade-in or other sail on their list of options.
Loren

 

[jssailem]

Yes. Baggy is a term used to identify sails that have stretched out of original shape. (I can guess that a new sail can be designed baggy, but have not met a sailor who wanted a new sail made "baggy" - except maybe a spinnaker/gennaker but that is a different discussion) New sails (jib/main/mizzen) are shaped as air foils. The cloth is generally a Dacron or one of the new fabrics designed and treated to be somewhat stiff and hold the designed shape. Some main sails are fitted with full battens that provide rigidity to the sail for shape.
You take your (baggy) sail to the loft and compare it to a new sail and you will know the difference.
That said, you do not necessarily need to replace the sail. It may provide many years of service. IMO depends on what you want out of your sailing experience.

 

[agprice22]

Besides the keel exerting righting forces, when heeled at a high angle, the sails are spilling a lot of wind, so the boat will normally not heel a lot further.

 

[jimshipsky]

John wrote: You take your (baggy) sail to the loft and compare it to a new sail and you will know the difference.
I'm already banging my head against the hull! Duh! What an obvious (now that John pointed it out) thing to do. Never occurred to me. Thanks again John.

 

[druid]

The Cal's love sailing on their ear! The Cal 20 (21?) is pretty much indestructable, and capable of sailing in pretty extreme conditions for its size. That said, heeling 30-45 degrees is not uncommon for that boat. You could get one that sails flatter, but probably not as seaworthy. If you want to keep that boat, you'll just have to get used to standing on the lee side of the cockpit
That said: reefing is another alternative...

druid

 

[Tom G P-21]

When you want a boat that is a little stiffer you might want to look at a shoal keel with center board. They can put more ballast in the keel to make it stiffer and the centerboard still helps with pointing. The Precision 21, that I sail, is that configuration and is about the same size as the boat that you have now. O'day 192 and 222 are similar style boats. Newer Com-pac boats are also shoal keel with centerboard.

 

[All U Get]

We stay at Handy Boat in Falmouth and use Hallett Canvas & Sails for our sails. They are very good at making and evaluating sails. We frequently watch the Thursday night racers and can see the high tech sails as they go by. You can hear the crispness of their sails in the breeze.
If you know a builder, borrow some Tyvek and make your own main. Someone here may have the instructions.
Back when most of these guys were young, sailors used sandbags to load one side of the boat in a breeze. In lieu of crew or ship stores you could experiment with a few bags. Hence the term Sandbagger.

All U Get

 

[jimshipsky]

This just keeps getting better and better!
Druid, thanks for your input. I was hoping to hear from someone experienced with a Cal 21. I just ordered a new pair of water shoes because my current ones were slipping on the edge of the lee cockpit seat, where I'm standing on breezier days. Knowing Cals "like" sailing on their ears is good to know. So not a problem with my boat, only a characteristic.
And Wow, All U Get, it never would have occurred to me to make a main from Tyvek. I have sewed a sail cover, so why not a mainsail? I will have to study up on sail design to get a proper airfoil shape.
Loren, I love your thought process of thinking of the hull/rigging alone as a great deal for $750, and discounting the old sails. Can't wait to be amazed at the difference a flatter main will make.