Suggestions on a first sailboat,

Apex · Oct 9, 2014

Check out Catalina 25's as well...swing keel with trailer ad a great sailing boat. I would recommend a smaller boat to learn sailing, the instant feedback from a centerboard or non-ballasted boat helps you to understand points of sail and how to get your boat pointed in the right direction. Colgate has a book as well as many other resources for learning to sail. Enjoy the search. I started on a sunfish as a kid. My first keelboat was a fin keel Catalina 25. I spoke once to a broke who couldn't sail a sunfish, learned on a 40 footer and thus didn't have the "feel for it." Whatever you find, be able to single-hand it and let the kids do it all as well....good memories

Indysailor · Oct 9, 2014

If you plan on trailer sailing, then water ballast is a very nice choice. 26 feet is not too much for a novice, in my opinion; it's more an issue of what kinds of conditions you choose to sail in.
If you want to spend nights aboard with more than just one other person, you may find that a 22 footer is a little cramped, however there are some boats that size that are more accommodating because of pop up companionway hatches, which gives standing head room in a portion of the cabin while anchored. That option also comes on several 25-26 foot boats.
And then there is the issue of an enclosed head, which very few 22-23 foot boats have.
I'd recommend looking at a Hunter 260. A friend of mine has one and it's like a cathedral inside compared to my 23 footer.

Crazy Dave Condon · Oct 9, 2014

AZsailing;

The Key to this question in which direction lies in what you actually want to do with a boat. If you want to trailer a lot, then water ballast does make sense and you do want a swing keel so the boat is lower on the trailer for easy launching. The next big issue is mast raising and the MacGregor 26 came with a mast raise system. In addition the Hunter and even some of the Catalina sailboats came with mast raise systems. As a former dealer, I also installed mast raise systems on smaller boats.

I am retired and no longer a dealer. I am simply helping others with my knowledge and experience. You will receive a lot of advice but one thing to consider is of course cost and if you find a boat that is pleasing to the eye for both you and the Mrs., then you are more apt to keep that boat longer.

I pretty much know the boats having sold MacGregor, Hunter, Catalina, Beneteau, Precision, Com Pac and so on. Feel free to contact me if you want via this forum. I will be out of touch for a few days as I am attending the Annapolis Sailboat Show first time as a consumer and then headed to the mountains to check on the construction of my retirement home.

Crazy Dave Condon

Anonymous 121765 · Oct 9, 2014

AZ,

There is some good advice here from the guys.

I did like what Crazy Dave added. He has sold boats so, he has a good idea of what people are looking for in boats. Yes, first write down some items to spell out what type of boating you wish to do & where. Personally, I would knot look at any swing keels. Had one, been there, did that. Not again. Besides who wants a narrow box shaped intrusion coming up from your cabin floor & cutting down on foot space. Trailering however, a swing keel or water ballast may work best for you.

Inland sailing can restrict you in boat size & type, you have to work with what you have. Everyone's restrictions are different, just make sure you go with what works.

If trailering your boat, this won't count but, I almost bought a C27 until my pal talked me out of it. He had a 27 & reminded me that a 30 footer gives soo much more cabin height & beam. Larger cockpit & roomier deck, not to mention a more stable boat to sail. This only applies to an in-water boat, but just something to think about.

I would talk to Dave some more.

CR

Bad Obsession · Oct 9, 2014

There are quite a few boats that may fit the bill. Work out a budget. What you haven't heard yet is that the budget is not just for the boat.

What????

Yep, often the cost of maintaining the boat will catch up and pass the initial cost of buying the boat.

There are a lot of good references out there to help in boat buying. Look through some of these. Your list on what you want and what you want to spend needs to incorporate some re-fit money into it.

Maintenance includes: Slip fees (if you keep it in the water at all), Taxes, Registration, Upgrades, Improvements, and maintenance (new halyards, sheets, bottom paint, trailer maintenance, sails, etc).

Sails and motors are expensive. Look for a boat that has both good sails and an good engine.

Each system has limitations, drawbacks, and positive traits too. Example: A water ballast boat is lighter on a trailer and easier to pull.....but....it makes for a boat that is initially less stable and quicker to heel. Another example: A centerboard can go into shallower water and still allow the boat to point okay....but....The centerboard requires more maintenance and it is a place where you can have a big failure.

This is the time to do some research and really figure out what you want to do. When you figure out your sailing goals match the boat to your goals. Come up with a list of particular boats and start shopping. Keep an eye out for the right boat for you, at the right price, with the right equipment, with the LEAST amount of issues. All boats will have some issues!

Merlin Clark · Oct 9, 2014

Climb around inside and outside on both boats. I've sailed with a friend on a Hunter 22 a bunch of times and it sails well and has nice ergonomics.
Briefly on a Mac to help get the owners OB running. Lots of space (horizontal) inside but I didn't care for the (vertical) very minimal headroom.
Check both out yourself before jumping. I was in lust after a well known and made 16' boat, sure it was the answer to my trailer cravings.... until I tried climbing below. Changed my mind pretty quickly.

sesmith · Oct 9, 2014

Also, don't over look the Hunter 23.5 or 240 in your boat search. Easy to sail, water ballasted, and might be an ideal size for your first boat.

Kper · Oct 9, 2014

captnron said:
AZ,... I would knot look at any swing keels. Had one, been there, did that. Not again. Besides who wants a narrow box shaped intrusion coming up from your cabin floor & cutting down on foot space...CR

I wouldn't be so quick to talk somebody out of a swing keel. Our swing keel Catalina 25 is a dinette model and other than the winch, all but hidden behind the companionway steps, you'd never know it was a swing keel.... no unsightly swing keel trunk. Getting close to the beach with a kick-up rudder is a nice advantage for overnighting and trailering isn't much unlike trailering an RV. I was resistant to a SK but now that I have one I have no regrets.

Tom G P-21 · Oct 9, 2014

One recommendation is to read "The Complete Trailer Sailor". It goes through what type of boats and their pro's and con's. Reviews different makes of boats and how to inspect a boat when shopping. It helped me in my search.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Complete-Trailer-Sailor-Sailboats/dp/0071472584

Kermit · Oct 9, 2014

My $.02. If you truly want to be a trailer sailor, get a boat, any boat, that's easy to trailer, set up, take down and trailer again. And there's more to it than just stepping the mast. Raising and lowering the mast is the easiest part of the H260. The hardest part for me is putting the boom on because of the rigid vang. It's nice to have but a trade-off when rigging. Oh, and tying and untying all the lines takes quite the little while, too.

hewebb · Oct 10, 2014

We shopped for 11 months for our first sail boat with a cabin. I ended up with a Catalina 25 wing keel. Normally it stays in a slip, however, we have taken it to several lakes to spend a few days sailing. I have an "A" frame to raise and lower the mast and can do it solo. (boat has to be level facing the wind to do solo) It takes me about an hour from trailer to sailing and about an hour and a half to rig for traveling. I really like the boat but would prefer more head room. If I had it to do over I would get the same boat. She is very stable and sails well. There is a lot of support for Catalina owners and it seems to be a well constructed boat. It can be pulled with a 1/2 ton truck, as many Catalina 25 owners do. What is your tow vehicle? What will it handle? What will your budget get you? The Hunter 260 water ballast would be my preference if going with a water ballast boat.

Chris Patterson · Oct 10, 2014

Personally, I would be on the phone with Dave if I could. An X dealer, with no ax to grind, and no boats to sell sounds like impartial advice.

Dave, what mountains are you talking about? Ruffton?

sailormanbigd · Oct 10, 2014

try it out

Before you buy try it out. If you can't demo sail it at least get inside and crawl around. Length is only one factor. I got two foot itis when I had a Southcoast 22 and purchased a MacGreggor 26 dagger board model with water ballast. First night I attempted to sleep on it was a bust. The settee births were not wide enough to support my arm. Lay on you back on the birth to see if you can comfortably lay there. The birth under the cockpit was too cavelike for me and the headroom was too low. The boat sailed pretty good compared to the swing keel Southcoast but I didn't care for the tunnel interior and ended up getting an Oday 25 with shoal/swing keel and lots more headroom. The 25 sailed like a dream compared to the other two boats and I could stand up inside but had to duck my head (I am 6'4"). The trade off is weight and size of rigging. It took 2 strong men to step the mast on the heavy 25 footer. I could step the lighter 26 Mac mast myself and the 22footer was very easy to raise. I used the 22 footer a lot and could go sailing in a whim- like a small dinghy, the 26 was more work and I would talk myself out of it sometimes, the 25 was a process and I would have to find strong help to get it going so didn't use it as much. If I was to go back to trailer sailing I would get something under 23ft, easy to tow/stow/rig and use it more.

cephius (Dave) · Oct 10, 2014

I agree that the time to rig and launch is a key factor in how often you use a trailer boat.

Currently my Hunter H260 is optimized for sailing from a slip. It takes me 3 hours to launch or recover my boat solo. That's 6 hours out of a day sail. On the other hand, the Admrial and I can have it out of the slip 10 minutes after arriving in the marina.

I've known H260 owners who optimized for trailer sailing and could launch in 45 minutes.

Kermit · Oct 10, 2014

Dave, I'd love to find out how to rig and launch in an hour. I swear it takes 45 minutes just to untie all the lines. My First Mate is capable of raising the mast herself. Not practical or even necessary but she can. The rigging is the complicated part.

Chief RA · Oct 10, 2014

My Catalina 250, (27' long) tall mast and wing keel definitely takes a couple hours to get it rigged for launch! I designed an A frame concept to raise/lower the mast by myself, if necessary, but prefer some help.
I highly recommend the Catalina 250, but for frequent trailer trips I would opt for the swing keel. In my opinion this is the largest trailerable a person would want to regularly deal with, not so good for weekend use. Good luck! Chief

Sumner · Oct 10, 2014

azsailing said:
..... do you have any idea of how much stability you loose in a water ballast v.s. a swing keel?....

First there are 4 different 26 foot Macgregors that are water ballast. The first was the 26D, displacement hull with a dagger-board. Next was the 26S, same basic hull as the 26D but has the swing centerboard. Both of these have limited headroom with the pop-top down but standing with it up and where are you going to walk around to anyway with these boats?

Next came two models boat people love to hate except the owners that have the high HP outboards and can plane and pull the kids/grand-kids on tubes or wake boards or even skies. The X was the first with a swing keel and 5-11 headroom and the M was the last Macgregor built (now Tatoos) with a dagger board and 6 foot head room.

The X and M have much more interior room than the D and S but don't sail near as well. The D and S have PHRF ratings in the 210-220 range and are faster and sail better than some of the boats that have been mentioned above. They will sail in very light air also. Now about your question about stability. The water ballast boats tend to be more tender initially but then stiffen up about 14 degrees or so. If someone is uncomfortable with that then it is a problem if not the boat is not going to capsize. A number of D and S owners have tried to knock the boat down intentionally and have for the most part failed. A couple got there momentarily but the boat rounded up and popped right back up without taking any water aboard with the high gunnels.

Ruth and I bought a 26S and neither of us had ever sailed and lessons weren't available here in canyon country. We had no problems ever with the boat or feeling safe in it and some of that was in extreme conditions. We took the boat to Idaho, Colorado, Canada, Utah and Florida with trips of over a month on the water continuous. Sure the boat is not huge below but we loved it and that was an asset in some cold weather times with the pop-top down and in hot weather with it up and air to everything below. The boat does have an astonishing amount of storage under the v-berth, the lazarette and other areas. With just the two of us on-board we could provision for a month on the water without having to restock for food, water, gas or to dispose of human waste. That is pretty good for a 26 foot boat that only weighs 1800 lbs. on the trailer empty without the 1200 lbs. of water ballast. Of course with all the mods we did our trailer/boat weight is probably about 3600 lbs. vs. 2700 for how it came from the factory.

We chose the S over the D mainly for the swing centerboard. Since the boat will run in 18 inches of water if you hit something the centerboard swings up and so does the rudder so it is really hard to hurts something and that is big if you are sailing new waters to you that your aren't familiar with. One nice feature is....

...you can beach the boat, which you can't with a lot of other boats. Also it is very easy to launch...

...even at times with no ramp. We always took our time getting in the water since we were....

...provisioning for longer trips but a lot of owners are in the water 30-45 minutes after getting to a ramp. The rigging stays attached except for the forestay and you have an easy to attach gin pole for raising using one of the jib sheet winches. Crank the mast up and pin the forestay and you are ready to go in the water.

Take a look at the promotional video for the boat....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFP3QA9-5GI

I'm not saying this is the boat for you but for us we loved it and I'm getting her ready now for hopefully an extended trip starting back in Florida. In hind sight we shouldn't of bought our bigger boat that we didn't get a chance to use but worked on for 2 years. 2 years that we could of been taking more trips with the Mac. I'm selling the Endeavour but not the Mac anytime soon. You can find lots more about the boat and the trips we took by following the links below.

Good luck on your search for a boat that fits 'your needs' and BTW our boat came out of Phoenix, you in AZ?

Sumner

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]============================

Our Endeavour 37

Our MacGregor 26-S Pages

Our Trips to Utah, Idaho, Canada, Florida

Mac-Venture Links[/FONT]