Stupidity Reveals Lesson Learned

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Rick D

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Jun 14, 2008
7,201
Hunter Legend 40.5 Shoreline Marina Long Beach CA
I am careful with batteries. I have two banks of Trojan golf cart T-125's for the house. I can select either or both by switch. I have a group 24 marine starting battery. The main bank is charged by a Heart charger/inverter that puts out about 140 amps/hour as I recall and keeps the starting battery charged by an echo. Well, I had the boat hauled for a bottom job. I left the freezer on by mistake (duh) and the yard didn't turn it off after I asked. So, five days later at launch, the house batteries were dead (altho there was still ice and a cold beer). No big deal, since the starting battery is on an isolator. Click. OOPS! Nothing. Checked the starting battery at 11.5 volts. So, I plugged in the charger for an hour and a half. Still not enough juice to turn over (the echo charger only puts out about 10 amps/hour as I recall). So, why didn't the isolator shift over to the house bank which was about 70%? And why did the starting battery discharge to begin with? I was told by the Vessel Assist captain who gave me a jump that the isolators require some degree of charge before shifting and that I probably didn't have my house bank up far enough. Beats me. I'll have to read up on that. More interesting is the issue with the starting battery. Never a problem before. It was about five years old, so I have been watching it carefully. Good amps, always full of water. I shut the house batteries off from time to time and start the engine by the starting battery alone. Always starts fine. So, it's apparent to me that it was just plain weak and that it never got a 'real' test from me since it was always topped off. And, I rarely let the house get too low either. Point in all this is that I could just as well been in some isolated cove and had this happen. So, I will check the starting battery in the future by letting it sit for a week off the charger. I'm going to replace it with an Orbital AGM. Expensive, but durable. Just submitting this as a heads-up to others with the same set up. (PS to us Left Coast sailors: The VA Captain told me that with the aquisition of Vessel Assist by Boat US, there will be some changes. He said the shift will be to make VA more like towing insurance than the assist-club it is today. For example, jump starts will not be covered in the future, and there will be other limiting changes. So, look for notice of coverage changes when you get your next renewal or the one following. This is second hand, of course, so take it only for what that's worth. Rick D.
 
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Stu Jackson C34 1986 #224

Isolators?

Rick Sorry to hear about your experience, but it sounds like you have a great setup and have approached the issue appropriately. Only question is, with your echo charge to the starting bank, what application do you have for any isolators? That's the one part I don't get. All the best, Stu
 
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Ed

Dead Starting Battery

IMHO, from what I know (little). Lead/Acid batteries go dead all by themselves. The plates passivate without use and lead sulphide forms on them. At some point, the deposits on adjacent plates touch each other and the cells short out. Charging a battery will disolve the deposits to a certain extent, but not completely. Even with regular use, the batteries will go dead when the plates eventually short. Five years is old for a battery regardless of the amount of use. You didn't do anything wrong, and there was nothing you could do to prevent loosing the starting battery.
 

Rick D

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Jun 14, 2008
7,201
Hunter Legend 40.5 Shoreline Marina Long Beach CA
Stu, The House Will Feed The Starter

as well as the starting battery. The input is controlled by the isolator. And, while I have not personally traced it, I can tell you that there is an isolator in the engine compartment and there are leads from the starting battery and what appears to be leads going aft to the house bank. So, I should be able to disconnect the starting battery and still start from the (charged) house bank. In some threads in the past, this caused some consternation on the part of folks who were working on something with the starting battery disconnected, only to find they still had juice at the starter. Don't know what other models or makes this applies to. Rick D.
 
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Derek Rowell

Something's not right here

Rick, Why would you have isolators from the house to starter batteries AND an echo charger? Here's a possible wiring scenario that would explain your situation (this could easily happen if the starter battery was added later): The alternator is connected directly to the starter battery and the isolator input, and then is split off to the two house batteries through the isolator diodes. If wired this way, the starter battery will discharge through the isolator diodes into the house bank whenever the house bank is low. This is DEFINITELY not what you want!
 

Rick D

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Jun 14, 2008
7,201
Hunter Legend 40.5 Shoreline Marina Long Beach CA
Hey, Derek, Interesting Thought

Altho the starting battery set up is stock, I'm pretty sure, the charger/inverter and current house bank configuration was subsequent. I'm going to take a look at it since I have to go to the boat anyway and will advise. (I'm still replacing that starting battery regardless!)Rick D.
 
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Stu Jackson C34 1986 #224

Isolators II

Rick Derek may be heading in the right direction. However, you just don't need isolators, because they steal a volt from whatever your charging source is. Makes no sense. Simplest arrangement: use your 1-2-B switch to parallel the banks in case you need to, rewire your two house banks into one larger bank (the batteries will last lots longer, see related link), and you can rip out the isolator(s). Both your battery charger AND alternator should be wired to your (now single) house bank. Very simple. Five years on a battery is VERY good, no problem there. Had you ever equalized your batteries (only if wet cells)? Good luck, Stu
 
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Tom S.

Yes, something does not sound right !?

I have a seperate starter battery with an echo charger set up and I don't know why you'd need to use a combiner. I have my boat set up so that I **always** use my starter battery when starting (unless of course there is a problem and then I have a switch) So I know everytime if I have a weakening starter battery, but that is the only time it would ever get any load put on it. Take a look at my handmade schematic from my website below. I have a very simple system. Its what I call "my automatic KISS system". I'll try and explain it below so that it makes sense. I will be very thorough as its not intuitively obvious to everyone. 1) Normal situation (Lets call this Scenario 1, which I leave set all the time, when everything is working properly) Original starter switch (under my starboard side game table) is left open (thus isolating my house bank from starter circuit). New "added" starter switch is closed, thus providing current to starting circuit. Starter battery is all that starts the engine but is still isolated from house bank. No load but engine start, but gets charging from echo charger (which is one way only, not like a combiner) 2) Scenario 2 . Starting when starter battery is too low to start engine on its own Original starter switch (under my starboard side game table) is left closed (thus adding extra current from my house bank to the starter circuit). New "added" starter switch is closed, thus providing current to starting circuit. (Everything is tied to everything and all batteries are in parallel) 3) Scenario 3) Starting when starter battery has gone COMPLETELY bad and shorted. Original starter switch (under my starboard side game table) is left closed (thus supplying current from my house bank to the starter circuit). New "added" starter switch is OPENED, thus isolating it from the starting circuit and bringing down the house bank. (All power to starter is from house bank and starter battery is isolated) 4) Scenario 4) When motoring. Just like (Scenario 1, which I leave like that all the time) Original starter switch (under my starboard side game table) is left open (thus isolating my house bank from starter circuit). New "added" starter switch is closed, thus providing current to starting circuit 5) Scenario 5) When sailing. Just like (Scenario 1, which I leave like that all the time) Original starter switch (under my starboard side game table) is left open (thus isolating my house bank from starter circuit). New "added" starter switch is closed, thus providing current to starting circuit 6) Scenario 6) When charging form 110V AC like at the dock. Just like (Scenario 1, which I leave like that all the time) Original starter switch (under my starboard side game table) is left open (thus isolating my house bank from starter circuit). New "added" starter switch is closed, thus providing current to starting circuit Charging, whether from the Engine alternator, or from the 110/220 AC charger always originally goes to my house bank. From there it goes through the "echo charger " (or a battery combiner) to the starter battery. So even when the original starter switch (under my starboard side game table) is left open it will always automatically charge the starter battery when the voltage goes above 13 Volts (which is a charging scenario) Basically I have it set up so that when everything is working correctly I NEVER have to touch anything, I just leave everything in Scenario 1,. Also one other point to make is that now I always leave my 2 4-D batteries in parallel by leaving the 1-2-Both switch on "Both" and enjoy the benefits that come from one big house bank. Should I experience any problem with either of the 4-D batteries I can isolate it from the other by switching the 1-2-Both switch to the good battery only. Also, should I experience a problem with the starter battery I can isolate it from everything as explained above. Heck, this set-up is so flexible that if you experience a complete loss of both 4-D batteries in your house bank you can even totally isolate your house bank from the boat and run everything off your starter battery (though my starter battery does not have a very big AH rating). All you would have to do is: 1) Switch the 1-2-Both switch to "off" 2) Set the original starter switch (under my starboard side game table) to closed (thus supplying current from the starter battery to the house panel). 3) Keep the new "added" starter switch is closed, thus providing current to starting circuit and NOW the house circuit Does that all make sense? *pop LOL The greatest thing is all I had to do is add a 1 starter battery, add 1 echo charger, add 1 on/off switch, change a little wiring and add some wiring. Here is the wiring diagram http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4291994657&p=4259276781&idx=8 (Double click on the picture to make it bigger and easier to read) (Here is more on the whole install) http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4291994657 (you might have to fill out something to view pictures, but its all free)
 
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Alan

Maybe...

...our boat manufacturers should take a page from Mercedes Benz service. No matter where you are or how old your M/B is or how many times its been resold, if you need roadside assistance just call the 800 number and its FREE. Need a jump? Run out of fuel? whatever the roadside assist is FREE. And I paid a good deal more for my boat than my M/B.
 
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Stu Jackson C34 1986 #224

Boat Electrical Systems

Alan Tom's post gave us a great insight, in detail, and my earlier post with its related link to the C34 website about electrical systems (one of MANY posted on that 'site) - from these you'll see the comparisons and similarities: simple to operate separate starting bank biggest house bank you can fit easy switching echo charger (better than a combiner, but serves essentially the same function: connects banks during charging, separates when charging source is off, no voltage loss because they're just relays, NOT isolators. Advantage of echo over combiner is that the start bank won't get overcharged whn running the engine for a long time). Rick's system seem OK except for the isolators, which still make no sense to me, but he's busy at his boat checking it out and hasn't responded yet. Roadside assistance on boats - have you read about Vessel Assist changing their MO recently? I figure you were kidding, and appreciate your sense of humor. Now, if they'd only explain to us what they're doing down there with all them danged wires and sparks! *5 Stu
 

Rick D

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Jun 14, 2008
7,201
Hunter Legend 40.5 Shoreline Marina Long Beach CA
Derek, Stu and Tom

Thanks for all your info. I went to the boat and dug through it to see what was up after I replaced the starting battery with an AGM. First off everyone will get a laugh out of this... with the old starting battery out, the warranty decal indicated it was NINE years old. Guess I shouldn't complain. It had about three times the usual life. (I've had the boat for four years.) Second :eek: what I thought were cables from the echo charger---were not. It isn't hooked to the starting battery, thus the isolator (combiner). Good call, Derek. It got dark before I could trace the isolator wiring, but its on the list. Couple of other points: I think it's a good idea to dump the isolator and activate the echo charge, but I don't feel strongly about it. What would be great tho is to swap the on/off starter switch to a off/1/both/2 switch and handle the mixing between the house banks and starting manually. This is largely what Tom has done it would appear, but I have to look his comments over more carefully. BTW, I equalize the batteries twice a year. The recommended cycles are all over the landscape, but it works for me. With an AGM in the mix, I'll have to remember to disconnect it. Anyhow, thanks for the leads and thoughts. I'm just glad this happened at the dock and not out in the Channel Islands or Baja.
 
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Derek Rowell

What I did...

Rick, Last summer I rewired the dc circuits in Destiny (Pearson 422) to include two new 4D house batteries and an Optima spiral-wound AGM starter battery. Here's the big picture: 1) I wired the two house batteries in permanently in parallel. 2) I used the existing 1-2-BOTH switch as the house disconnect switch to the main panel. 3) I wired the alternator (125amp) and the charger to the house bank so that the house would always be charged first. (There is some debate whether you should charge the house or starter first). 4) I used a battery combiner between the two banks to charge the starter battery (note that a combiner is not the same as an isolator). The AGM and wet cells can be charged in parallel - not true for gell cells. I actually purchased an Echo Charger for the starter but decided not to use it. There were a lot of bells and whistles (for example a remotely operated starter disconnect switch, an automatic refrigerator switch, temperature sensors etc) but that's the basic arrangement. I would avoid the use of an isolator unless you have voltage sensing capability on your charger and alternator regulator. If you are going to do battery rewiring, make sure you have a good terminal/lug crimping system.
 
Dec 24, 2003
233
- - Va. Beach, Va
1 More Low Tech Thought,

Having been stranded more than once over the years, for whatever (usually stupid) reason, with batteries too low to start the engine (or generator), I now carry not one, but two, additional (ordinary, group 24) batteries. If everything else fails, I can swap (or jump) start batteries and I'm good to go. I put each of these "extra" start batteries on an inexpensive battery charger every couple of months to make sure that they remain charged, and otherwise keep them stowed (under the bunk). Why 2, 'cause I'm paranoid. Anyway, when you cruise and anchor alot its cheap insurance and one more things that helps you sleep better. Oh, they also come in handy when you encounter other boaters who's batteries are dead. Nice to be able loan them a good battery to get started.
 
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Tom S.

Dereks set up is almost exactly like mine.

Only difference is: 1) That he uses a combiner and I use an echo charger. (basically same type of function) 2) He has his 4 D's permanently wired together and I opted to leave an existing 1/2/Both switch that was there and on "Both" (which, just like his leave, them connected together all the time) 3)I have other switches in series that I have left in my set-up for easy isolation or connection but only if I am having some issues with one or more batteries. Its a great and basically simple system. (even though I know I am making it more complicated by the way I am explaining it)
 
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Gord May

Tom S.

As (I thgink Stu J. said: Echo Chargers & Combiners are NOT the Same: Battery Combiners work well when two different charging sources alternately feed into a single battery bank, or when one bank should be disconnected first to prevent over charging. A simple battery combiner merely creates a path between two or more batteries when ever a voltage over a certain amount ( > 12.7 Volts ) is present. Combiners are intended for charging applications. Unfortunately, many people assume that if it is good enough for charging, it must also be good for discharging - including cranking an engine. NOT SO!! A Pathmaker is one brand of battery combiner which has the added feature of adjustable voltage thresholds. With it you can set the Disconnect V to a voltage which is below the gassing point of a warm battery. You can also set the reconnect voltage and the over voltage disconnect threshold. (the product has three separate adjustment pots) Echo Chargers work well as long as all connected batteries can tolerate the duration and voltage levels experienced in a typical charging cycle and assuming the battery technology and chemistry is the same in all cases. The Echo charger; being a voltage follower, will not prevent gassing if the main battery keeps the regulator in the absorption stage and hence a higher voltage (14.1 V) for a long time. Echo chargers do not waste energy or produce voltage drops (as do Iso’ Diodes). Echo chargers limit the charging current to 15 amps. For charging a smaller battery with limited acceptance rate, this prevents damaging heat build-up. Echo chargers do not shut off when the smaller battery is fully charged. Echo chargers are voltage followers, that means they output the same voltage that is being fed to the main ( big ) house bank.  Diode Isolators produce a voltage drop of 0.7 volts across the diode junction. Provided you feed the house bank first, this drop helps prevent excess voltage on the second (usually start ) battery. This drop is often cited as causing an under charge condition. While true, it may not really matter since the battery will most likely be fully charged the next time the engine runs and recharged from the alternator. Diode isolators limit current by virtue of creating waste heat and more voltage drop at higher current levels.
 
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nick naggio

JUMP STARTER

I have been thinking of getting one of those battery jump starters that every body sells,they look very easy to handle and just plug them into 110 to charge up,they have everything nicely package for any use,has any body used one,costco has them I think they are easyer than a plan battery. nick
 
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Bill

Jump start battery

I have one for the car, which I tested on the boat. I take with me when we leave for overnights, just in case.
 
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Tom S.

Gord M. Yes you are very right.

I knew those things, but for the sake of the discussions and brevity I decided to leave out the nuiances between the two. Thanks for the clarification. In my particular setup either would have worked fine, but the echo charger seems to fit my needs the best. fyi. I have a flooded batteries for my house and an AGM for my starter, so they have similar (not exact but close enough) charging regimes. The AGM's would rather have a little lower charging voltage, and another thing I notice is due to the wiring run and the echo charger they see a 0.1-0.2 volt lower voltage than that of my house bank so it works out well. (Of course if I do an equalize I isolate the AGM stater completely)
 
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Stu Jackson C34 1986 #224

?Extra Batteries

Fred and Buck I miss the low tech point. If you HAVE the batteries on board, why not just wire them into the system? Then you have a bigger bank that lasts longer and will properly serve the loads on board. Am I mssing something? Stu Fred, don'[t go shopping yet *5
 
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