I am baffled by the action of my helm. When the wind picks up above about 12 knots I develope some weather helm ( tiller is to the high side or windward side) but contrary to all my past experience with sailboats I have to push on the tiller to maintain course rather than pull on it. I have just retuned my rig and the pressure required to maintain course is now lessened somewhat but it is still there. Is anyone else out there having or have had the same experience? I would really like to fix this if I can but I have no idea what to do...
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Sounds like your rudder might be overbalanced
I don't know the Hunter 260 model from personal experience but I understand that the rudder is able to hinge up and down (as is the auxiliary rudder on our Legend 43, but that is a different story). In fact, according to some of the H 260 rudder drawings posted earlier this month, in the fully downward position a considerable fraction of the total wetted rudder area extends forward of an imaginary line through the rudder shaft down to the lower edge of the rudder. In other word, this is a (fully or partially) balanced rudder design that should not produce the same strong centering forces that are at work on an unbalanced rudder (such as our Legend 43 rudder). Furthermore, when heeling strongly, some of the wetted area behind the shaft axis may be lifted above the waterline while the lower area extending forward of the shaft axis remains fully submerged. This, in and by itself, might temporarily produce an overbalanced rudder. However, in that case, other H 260 owners should have noticed the same problem and would probably have responded to your post. Therefore, it is possible that the previous owner made a repair or design modificiation which increased the degree of forward hinging, or the rudder hardware became misaligned during an incident, thereby increasing the overbalancing tendency. Perhaps, also, you tend to heel more strongly than the average H260 sailor and/or your stern rides a tad higher. In your place I would check the following: (1) that she does not float way above her waterline at the stern; (2) that the rudder is not overbalanced through a mechanical problem; and (3) that you are not simply heeling too much. Good luck! Flying Dutchman
I don't know the Hunter 260 model from personal experience but I understand that the rudder is able to hinge up and down (as is the auxiliary rudder on our Legend 43, but that is a different story). In fact, according to some of the H 260 rudder drawings posted earlier this month, in the fully downward position a considerable fraction of the total wetted rudder area extends forward of an imaginary line through the rudder shaft down to the lower edge of the rudder. In other word, this is a (fully or partially) balanced rudder design that should not produce the same strong centering forces that are at work on an unbalanced rudder (such as our Legend 43 rudder). Furthermore, when heeling strongly, some of the wetted area behind the shaft axis may be lifted above the waterline while the lower area extending forward of the shaft axis remains fully submerged. This, in and by itself, might temporarily produce an overbalanced rudder. However, in that case, other H 260 owners should have noticed the same problem and would probably have responded to your post. Therefore, it is possible that the previous owner made a repair or design modificiation which increased the degree of forward hinging, or the rudder hardware became misaligned during an incident, thereby increasing the overbalancing tendency. Perhaps, also, you tend to heel more strongly than the average H260 sailor and/or your stern rides a tad higher. In your place I would check the following: (1) that she does not float way above her waterline at the stern; (2) that the rudder is not overbalanced through a mechanical problem; and (3) that you are not simply heeling too much. Good luck! Flying Dutchman
There was some work done..
The former owner mentioned that he had a block rigged in the rudder assembly to give more power in pulling the rudder up and down. I wonder if that is causing the rudder to extend too far forward. Other than the problem when the wind blows the rudder is almost neutral.
The former owner mentioned that he had a block rigged in the rudder assembly to give more power in pulling the rudder up and down. I wonder if that is causing the rudder to extend too far forward. Other than the problem when the wind blows the rudder is almost neutral.
Mast rake
If the rudder isn't all the way down, the boat will respond in the manner you described. Could also be that the mast is raked to far aft. Your forcing the boat with the tiller to fall off the wind. More sail to the front would do the same thing. Hence - reduce the aft rake of the mast a bit. To test that, pull in on the jib and release some tension on the main. That will accomplish the same thing (but not a good sail setting to leave that way).
If the rudder isn't all the way down, the boat will respond in the manner you described. Could also be that the mast is raked to far aft. Your forcing the boat with the tiller to fall off the wind. More sail to the front would do the same thing. Hence - reduce the aft rake of the mast a bit. To test that, pull in on the jib and release some tension on the main. That will accomplish the same thing (but not a good sail setting to leave that way).
What is the best way?
Would the best way to do that be to tighten the forestay? I already have 600 lbs on the uppers- but have almost no bend in the mast. I guess the rig is pretty much not in adjustment. Is there a guide anywhere?
Would the best way to do that be to tighten the forestay? I already have 600 lbs on the uppers- but have almost no bend in the mast. I guess the rig is pretty much not in adjustment. Is there a guide anywhere?
Calvin
Michael is correct when he mentioned that it was probably to do with rake. In this case to much I should say. We often read posts about this really interesting subject. Mast bend is achieved by winding up the reverse diagonals with the rest of the rigging slack. The average or base amount of bend is 1% of the distance from the boom to the tip of the mast. So wind up those reverse diagonals to achieve this first. It is best if the mast is lying down. You then need to adjust your rake. Hanging a plumb bob on the main halyard so it rests just above the boom is good. The distance should be about 5 inches from the aft side of the boom to the plumb bob. You then need to centre the mast (port-starboard) I have found that using the topping lift with a length of wire attached is the best way for there is no give in it. A pre-determined point on each side of her is to be marked. Adjust the mast with the upper shrouds untill it is dead centre. You can then adjust up the shrouds evenly on each side to the required tension. Then adjust the lower shrouds and site up the mast to make sure it remains straight. Finally tension everything evenly to the required tension. But here is the important message. "Do not adjust the forestay" in any way. Once the forestay is set for rake it must not be touched again. Some people unwind the forestay each time they rig the yacht so in this case it is vital to mark the screw so that it is tensioned the same every time. To finish off take her for a sail and check your tension but I say again "do not adjust the forestay" Regards and good luck.
Michael is correct when he mentioned that it was probably to do with rake. In this case to much I should say. We often read posts about this really interesting subject. Mast bend is achieved by winding up the reverse diagonals with the rest of the rigging slack. The average or base amount of bend is 1% of the distance from the boom to the tip of the mast. So wind up those reverse diagonals to achieve this first. It is best if the mast is lying down. You then need to adjust your rake. Hanging a plumb bob on the main halyard so it rests just above the boom is good. The distance should be about 5 inches from the aft side of the boom to the plumb bob. You then need to centre the mast (port-starboard) I have found that using the topping lift with a length of wire attached is the best way for there is no give in it. A pre-determined point on each side of her is to be marked. Adjust the mast with the upper shrouds untill it is dead centre. You can then adjust up the shrouds evenly on each side to the required tension. Then adjust the lower shrouds and site up the mast to make sure it remains straight. Finally tension everything evenly to the required tension. But here is the important message. "Do not adjust the forestay" in any way. Once the forestay is set for rake it must not be touched again. Some people unwind the forestay each time they rig the yacht so in this case it is vital to mark the screw so that it is tensioned the same every time. To finish off take her for a sail and check your tension but I say again "do not adjust the forestay" Regards and good luck.
Mast pre-bend
I'm not too familiar with the B&R rig on the H260, but it seems to me that since the spreaders are swept back, pre-bending the mast should be simply a matter of slacking the lower shrouds and tightening the uppers. This can be done in ten minutes, with the mast up. Can this be done with the H260? Peter H23 "Raven"
I'm not too familiar with the B&R rig on the H260, but it seems to me that since the spreaders are swept back, pre-bending the mast should be simply a matter of slacking the lower shrouds and tightening the uppers. This can be done in ten minutes, with the mast up. Can this be done with the H260? Peter H23 "Raven"
Mast rake/bend explains rudder action???
Before Calvin starts to bend or rake his poor mast, could either Michael, Mark or Peter provide some kind of mechanistic explanation, perhaps? Of course, the relationship between mast rake/bend and weather or lee helm is well understood. However, Calvin has clearly explained that he experiences the normal amount of weather helm when trying to hold course. According to his description, the only difference here is that the helm needs to be pushed rather than pulled (when sitting on the weather side of the cockpit, I presume). Beats me how this could have anything to do with the shape or attitude of the mast! In the situation described by Calvin an unbalanced rudder will pull a balanced rudder will be neutral and an overbalanced rudder will push as long as the vessel keeps making headway; independent of whether the mast is raked (or bent) forward, backwards, sideways or even may have fallen overboard...... Have fun! Flying Dutchman
Before Calvin starts to bend or rake his poor mast, could either Michael, Mark or Peter provide some kind of mechanistic explanation, perhaps? Of course, the relationship between mast rake/bend and weather or lee helm is well understood. However, Calvin has clearly explained that he experiences the normal amount of weather helm when trying to hold course. According to his description, the only difference here is that the helm needs to be pushed rather than pulled (when sitting on the weather side of the cockpit, I presume). Beats me how this could have anything to do with the shape or attitude of the mast! In the situation described by Calvin an unbalanced rudder will pull a balanced rudder will be neutral and an overbalanced rudder will push as long as the vessel keeps making headway; independent of whether the mast is raked (or bent) forward, backwards, sideways or even may have fallen overboard...... Have fun! Flying Dutchman
Lee helm?
Calvin, maybe I'm misunderstanding your original post. You say the tiller is moving to windward when the wind picks up...that's lee helm. If you are having to push the tiller (when sitting to windward) to maintain course, you have lee helm, not weather helm. Henk, a plethora of technical knowledge on this site, provides some excellent insight regarding your rudder position. I heartily recommend you make note of his advice. However, it seems that your original post is somewhat unclear. Is the helm neutral at lower wind speeds or does it want to creep one way or another? Mark Kissel Kittiwake 98H240
Calvin, maybe I'm misunderstanding your original post. You say the tiller is moving to windward when the wind picks up...that's lee helm. If you are having to push the tiller (when sitting to windward) to maintain course, you have lee helm, not weather helm. Henk, a plethora of technical knowledge on this site, provides some excellent insight regarding your rudder position. I heartily recommend you make note of his advice. However, it seems that your original post is somewhat unclear. Is the helm neutral at lower wind speeds or does it want to creep one way or another? Mark Kissel Kittiwake 98H240
Maybe I'm confused...
When I am sitting on the high side going to windward the tiller is toward me a certain amount in order to maintain course. I believe that is the technical definition of weather helm. However, I have to push on the tiller to keep it in this position, which is what is normally associated with lee helm. This is not a normal situation. When I had a more experienced sailor handle the helm he was completely blown away by the apparent contradiction. I believe the boat must be crabbing and water flow over the back of the rudder is causing the unusual pressure.
When I am sitting on the high side going to windward the tiller is toward me a certain amount in order to maintain course. I believe that is the technical definition of weather helm. However, I have to push on the tiller to keep it in this position, which is what is normally associated with lee helm. This is not a normal situation. When I had a more experienced sailor handle the helm he was completely blown away by the apparent contradiction. I believe the boat must be crabbing and water flow over the back of the rudder is causing the unusual pressure.
Calvin, agree crabbing likely to play role
However, make a little sketch and I believe you will see that crabbing will only produce additional pull on an unbalanced rudder and more push on an overbalanced one (i.e. with more wetted cros-sectional area forward of the rudder axis than aft of it). Thus, an overbalanced rudder will produce the unusual "push effect" whether the vessel is making pure headway or the movement of the rudder through the water is a combination of headway and sideslipping. Flying Dutchman
However, make a little sketch and I believe you will see that crabbing will only produce additional pull on an unbalanced rudder and more push on an overbalanced one (i.e. with more wetted cros-sectional area forward of the rudder axis than aft of it). Thus, an overbalanced rudder will produce the unusual "push effect" whether the vessel is making pure headway or the movement of the rudder through the water is a combination of headway and sideslipping. Flying Dutchman
Are you using the standard sized jib?
If you are using a larger than standard Jib -- a Genoa -- it would produce lee helm. Does you jib overlap the mast? A change in mast rake -- which is moving the sail's center of effort forward or aft by a few inches -- could change the feel of the helm, but I don't know by how much. The mast pre-bend is set using the diagonals in the B&R rig (as described in a previous post to this thread). More conventional rigs use the backstay to control mast bend. The mast bend affects the draft of the mainsail -- how deep the sail's belly is. More bend creates deeper draft and more drive, less bend results in a flatter sail and less drive. I beleive that a deeper draft (from more mast bend) would tend to also move the sails center of effort aft, creating more weather helm. Conversely, less mast bend would provide a flatter sail and reduce weather helm (maybe to the point of inducing lee helm?). My experience has been that when the rudder slips up and back a little, it gets hard to steer in both directions. I imagine it could chage the balance of the boat by changing the overall center of lateral resistance slightly. So the worst case lee helm, I reason, would result from: Mast straight up or raked forward, Little or no bend, rudder swung aft. (and large jib). Worst weather helm would result from Mast raked back, lots of bend, rudder swung forward (and no jib). For B&R Rig tuning directions, see: http://www.hunterowners.com/ref/br.html Fair winds... Tom
If you are using a larger than standard Jib -- a Genoa -- it would produce lee helm. Does you jib overlap the mast? A change in mast rake -- which is moving the sail's center of effort forward or aft by a few inches -- could change the feel of the helm, but I don't know by how much. The mast pre-bend is set using the diagonals in the B&R rig (as described in a previous post to this thread). More conventional rigs use the backstay to control mast bend. The mast bend affects the draft of the mainsail -- how deep the sail's belly is. More bend creates deeper draft and more drive, less bend results in a flatter sail and less drive. I beleive that a deeper draft (from more mast bend) would tend to also move the sails center of effort aft, creating more weather helm. Conversely, less mast bend would provide a flatter sail and reduce weather helm (maybe to the point of inducing lee helm?). My experience has been that when the rudder slips up and back a little, it gets hard to steer in both directions. I imagine it could chage the balance of the boat by changing the overall center of lateral resistance slightly. So the worst case lee helm, I reason, would result from: Mast straight up or raked forward, Little or no bend, rudder swung aft. (and large jib). Worst weather helm would result from Mast raked back, lots of bend, rudder swung forward (and no jib). For B&R Rig tuning directions, see: http://www.hunterowners.com/ref/br.html Fair winds... Tom
Don't give me any leeway, please
Mark & Tom, either Calvin IS indeed describing weather helm or I am becoming senile (oh well, bound to happen sooner or later anyhow ;o)). In this day and age of wheels rather than tillers it always takes me a couple of seconds to go back and remember the feel of sailing a tiller vessel. Last time Nelleke and I had a chance to do that was in 2000, while sailing the Eastern Mediterranean on a classic 30' Greek Kaike for 10 days. Although some of the sailing encyclopedias might say: "weather helm is the tendency of a vessel to round up into the wind when the helm (rudder) is centered amidships" (thus cleverly escaping the need to make a distinction between tiller- and wheel-equipped vessels)I am ready to bet my neighbor's farm that the original meaning was to indicate any wind-driven situation where the tiller had to be moved to weather (windward) in order to keep the vessel on course. Either way, Calvin is correct in calling that tiller POSITION "weather helm". Whether -- in that windward position -- the tiller wants to: (1) return to amidships (requiring a sailor sitting on the high, windward side to keep PULLING on the tiller to prevent rounding up); (2) is happy to stay right where it is; or (3) wants to go further to windward (requiring that sailor to keep PUSHING against the tiller in order to prevent falling off too far) is determined by the force of the water on the rudder blade in that particular position. As I have argued, the most straightforward explanation of these 3 different behaviors is that the rudder is unbalanced, neutral or overbalanced, respectively. A possible weakness in my argument is that I am considering the rudder primarily as a flat board, rather than as a hydrodynamic wing. However, the drawing of the retractable H260 rudder shown on this board earlier does not suggest much of a wing shape. For the "lee helm" proponents in this thread it may be interesting to consider that the whole "push" vs "pull" behavior would be exactly the same. That is, an unbalanced rudder would try to more or less center itself unless the crabbing component became really strong, whereas an overbalanced rudder would need to be pushed back to the center). The only difference with the weather helm situation is that in order to keep the vessel tracking straight the tiller would have to be kept to leeward of the amidships position. Have fun! Flying Dutchman
Mark & Tom, either Calvin IS indeed describing weather helm or I am becoming senile (oh well, bound to happen sooner or later anyhow ;o)). In this day and age of wheels rather than tillers it always takes me a couple of seconds to go back and remember the feel of sailing a tiller vessel. Last time Nelleke and I had a chance to do that was in 2000, while sailing the Eastern Mediterranean on a classic 30' Greek Kaike for 10 days. Although some of the sailing encyclopedias might say: "weather helm is the tendency of a vessel to round up into the wind when the helm (rudder) is centered amidships" (thus cleverly escaping the need to make a distinction between tiller- and wheel-equipped vessels)I am ready to bet my neighbor's farm that the original meaning was to indicate any wind-driven situation where the tiller had to be moved to weather (windward) in order to keep the vessel on course. Either way, Calvin is correct in calling that tiller POSITION "weather helm". Whether -- in that windward position -- the tiller wants to: (1) return to amidships (requiring a sailor sitting on the high, windward side to keep PULLING on the tiller to prevent rounding up); (2) is happy to stay right where it is; or (3) wants to go further to windward (requiring that sailor to keep PUSHING against the tiller in order to prevent falling off too far) is determined by the force of the water on the rudder blade in that particular position. As I have argued, the most straightforward explanation of these 3 different behaviors is that the rudder is unbalanced, neutral or overbalanced, respectively. A possible weakness in my argument is that I am considering the rudder primarily as a flat board, rather than as a hydrodynamic wing. However, the drawing of the retractable H260 rudder shown on this board earlier does not suggest much of a wing shape. For the "lee helm" proponents in this thread it may be interesting to consider that the whole "push" vs "pull" behavior would be exactly the same. That is, an unbalanced rudder would try to more or less center itself unless the crabbing component became really strong, whereas an overbalanced rudder would need to be pushed back to the center). The only difference with the weather helm situation is that in order to keep the vessel tracking straight the tiller would have to be kept to leeward of the amidships position. Have fun! Flying Dutchman
This is getting very complex...
I bought this 99 model 260 about 6 months ago. I believe the rudder is standard and the jib is standard. That now being said,( by the way I love the boat - I just need to get a little more speed out of her to be competitive in our club races) the mast does not have any bend in it. How do I get bend - do I tighten or loosed the diag. shrouds? I have increased the upper tension to about 600 lbls and the lowers are at 450 lbs. I can't figure out the physics of the diag. shrouds. It would see that looser would induce mast bend but everyone who has commented has said 'screw em down'. I am going to the boat tomorrow and will experiment. I just bought a loos guage so I can be more precise. Someday I am going to have a boat that has the upper and lower shrouds inboard so they can be adjusted while the boat is in the water by older less flexible sailers. Thanks and keep the comments coming...
I bought this 99 model 260 about 6 months ago. I believe the rudder is standard and the jib is standard. That now being said,( by the way I love the boat - I just need to get a little more speed out of her to be competitive in our club races) the mast does not have any bend in it. How do I get bend - do I tighten or loosed the diag. shrouds? I have increased the upper tension to about 600 lbls and the lowers are at 450 lbs. I can't figure out the physics of the diag. shrouds. It would see that looser would induce mast bend but everyone who has commented has said 'screw em down'. I am going to the boat tomorrow and will experiment. I just bought a loos guage so I can be more precise. Someday I am going to have a boat that has the upper and lower shrouds inboard so they can be adjusted while the boat is in the water by older less flexible sailers. Thanks and keep the comments coming...
Too Much Rudder Rake!!!
A "Lee Helm" and "Weather Helm" is the position of the tiller and not on the "Push" or "Pull" forces on the tiller. Based on what you said, the previous owner while working on the rudder to make it easier to raise and lower the rudder, had changed the rake of the rudder and had inadvertently moved the rudder forward. Adjusting the rake on the rudder changes the tiller forces. Moving the rudder backward increases the tug while moving the rudder forward reduces the force on the tiller. Raking the rudder has nothing to do with "Weather Helm" or "Lee Helm", just the amount of physical force needed to move the rudder. Try moving the rudder slightly aft, this should increase the normal "Pulling" force on the tiller and will keep you from having to "Push" against the tiller. Fair Winds. Clyde
A "Lee Helm" and "Weather Helm" is the position of the tiller and not on the "Push" or "Pull" forces on the tiller. Based on what you said, the previous owner while working on the rudder to make it easier to raise and lower the rudder, had changed the rake of the rudder and had inadvertently moved the rudder forward. Adjusting the rake on the rudder changes the tiller forces. Moving the rudder backward increases the tug while moving the rudder forward reduces the force on the tiller. Raking the rudder has nothing to do with "Weather Helm" or "Lee Helm", just the amount of physical force needed to move the rudder. Try moving the rudder slightly aft, this should increase the normal "Pulling" force on the tiller and will keep you from having to "Push" against the tiller. Fair Winds. Clyde
Attachments
Calvin, I agree with Clyde and Henk
Sorry to digress into the whole mast pre-bend thing, but I learned the hard way that playing with mast rake is not worth it. I was trying to prevent you from going down that path. Oh well. I re-read your original post and agree that the problem seems to be with the balance of the rudder. If I understand the situation correctly, your rudder is trying to push the tiller into your lap. Most rudders don't do this because they are underbalanced, i.e. most of the blade area is aft of the axis on which the rudder pivots. Underbalanced rudders are easy to build and install, but the helmsman has to provide the balancing force bu pulling on the tiller (assuming he/she is on the windward side of the cockpit). This pull on the tiller is the helm's "feel". the balance of some transom-hung rudders can be improved by pivoting the blade farther forward than it's supposed to go. Check yours by pulling the rudder all the way down with the boat out of the water and see how the leading edge of the rudder lines up compared to the pivot axis. Maybe there was a rubber bumper stop in the rudder bracket that fell off? Maybe the upper pintle is loose? Maybe the transon is flexing under load? Peter H23 "Raven"
Sorry to digress into the whole mast pre-bend thing, but I learned the hard way that playing with mast rake is not worth it. I was trying to prevent you from going down that path. Oh well. I re-read your original post and agree that the problem seems to be with the balance of the rudder. If I understand the situation correctly, your rudder is trying to push the tiller into your lap. Most rudders don't do this because they are underbalanced, i.e. most of the blade area is aft of the axis on which the rudder pivots. Underbalanced rudders are easy to build and install, but the helmsman has to provide the balancing force bu pulling on the tiller (assuming he/she is on the windward side of the cockpit). This pull on the tiller is the helm's "feel". the balance of some transom-hung rudders can be improved by pivoting the blade farther forward than it's supposed to go. Check yours by pulling the rudder all the way down with the boat out of the water and see how the leading edge of the rudder lines up compared to the pivot axis. Maybe there was a rubber bumper stop in the rudder bracket that fell off? Maybe the upper pintle is loose? Maybe the transon is flexing under load? Peter H23 "Raven"
Hunter Engineering article
I have an article written in 1994 by Rob Mazza, who was Chief Design Engineer for Hunter at that time. It is titled "Rudder Balance and Weather Helm on Hunter Trailerables", and discusses how the position of the rudder in tne rudder cage affects tiller feel, and how to adjust it. It applies to the 19, 23.5, and 26. The file is too large and detailed to post here, but if you e-mail me at mralbov@yahoo.com I will send it to you. Be aware that it is a 510 kb gif file, but you can easily enlarge it and see the details on the drawings.
I have an article written in 1994 by Rob Mazza, who was Chief Design Engineer for Hunter at that time. It is titled "Rudder Balance and Weather Helm on Hunter Trailerables", and discusses how the position of the rudder in tne rudder cage affects tiller feel, and how to adjust it. It applies to the 19, 23.5, and 26. The file is too large and detailed to post here, but if you e-mail me at mralbov@yahoo.com I will send it to you. Be aware that it is a 510 kb gif file, but you can easily enlarge it and see the details on the drawings.
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