strange broker conduct...
- Thread starter MitchM
- Start date
Sounds like all payments in check form are suspect until a couple weeks goes by to allow for clearing by banks.
So, other than cash what is the next best form of required payment if you don't know the buyer?
So, other than cash what is the next best form of required payment if you don't know the buyer?
I'm with Gunni. So far, the broker has only asked for information (except I'm not sure why a broker would be asking a seller for a list of surveyors). If your boat is for sale, why would you be hesitant to at least respond to simple requests? It might be a little unorthodox for a broker to be inquiring about a boat that isn't listed for sale through a brokerage because the broker has no assurance there is any money in it for himself. It doesn't make any sense to me how a buyer's broker expects a buyer to forfeit any money that was put down AND make a full payment for the boat. As Seller, I assume that you have no agreement with a broker since the first contact was directly to you. If you are listing with a broker, then the broker is obviously expecting to get a share of the commission (assuming boat brokers share commissions as they do in real estate when a buyer's broker brings the buyer to the table).
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If you have a SOLID broker, you can just pay in cash at closing.
Checks in the mail are a joke. Use a bank check instead.
Why would you trust a stranger, look at how many past victims were scammed.
It's your money, keep it safe until you are sure.
It's that simple.
CR
Checks in the mail are a joke. Use a bank check instead.
Why would you trust a stranger, look at how many past victims were scammed.
It's your money, keep it safe until you are sure.
It's that simple.
CR
Yeah, that won't happen because the seller is smart enough to specify a bank check and "funds cleared". A motivated buyer will do a direct wire transfer, you can't wire money between banks if the money doesn't exist.
A direct wire transfer between banks. You have your money in a matter of minutes. A bank check would be almost as good, but you could legitimately delay the vessel transfer until your bank confirms receipt of funds.
Mitch M;
As a former dealer, Most of us will tell you that you are being scammed and walk away. Sometimes a legitimate broker would ask for local surveyors and I supplied the name and phone number. When a supposed broker was anxious in any way, generally I smelled a rat. If asked for a bill of sale to be emailed, I would ask for an address, name with phone number and if they were reluctant, that did not happen. I loved it when they said to ship the boat and then monies would be sent. Walk away. As for supplying the bill of sale with copies of the actual title work, in the beginning do not supply those copies until you know the other end is ligit.
When the address is supplied, I would go to the official white pages and see where the address was. Once a cell phone location is in San Francisco with an address in the Hudson River, NY.
First, I checked out the broker to make sure they were ligit. I even called dealers in the local area to see if they ever heard of them. I never supplied copies of the title work until a deposit was received and cleared the bank. In addition I required a bill of sale to be signed and notarized to be sent back if there was any question. That generally stopped the scammers. As for payment, there are third parties I have dealt with that handled the actual financial and title work transfere before the boat left. However, you could always go to your bank and for a small fee set up a one time account for a wire transfere coming in only with the assurance that no one could have those funds coming out. I did that for my overseas transactions setting up an account separate of all other accounts just for that.
As a former dealer, Most of us will tell you that you are being scammed and walk away. Sometimes a legitimate broker would ask for local surveyors and I supplied the name and phone number. When a supposed broker was anxious in any way, generally I smelled a rat. If asked for a bill of sale to be emailed, I would ask for an address, name with phone number and if they were reluctant, that did not happen. I loved it when they said to ship the boat and then monies would be sent. Walk away. As for supplying the bill of sale with copies of the actual title work, in the beginning do not supply those copies until you know the other end is ligit.
When the address is supplied, I would go to the official white pages and see where the address was. Once a cell phone location is in San Francisco with an address in the Hudson River, NY.
First, I checked out the broker to make sure they were ligit. I even called dealers in the local area to see if they ever heard of them. I never supplied copies of the title work until a deposit was received and cleared the bank. In addition I required a bill of sale to be signed and notarized to be sent back if there was any question. That generally stopped the scammers. As for payment, there are third parties I have dealt with that handled the actual financial and title work transfere before the boat left. However, you could always go to your bank and for a small fee set up a one time account for a wire transfere coming in only with the assurance that no one could have those funds coming out. I did that for my overseas transactions setting up an account separate of all other accounts just for that.
Interesting story of what certainly appears to be a scam. FWIW, I once was contacted by an actual boat broker about selling my boat (FSBO) and he said he had a buyer.
But Then he wanted me to list it, and I refused. I told him that if he really had a buyer in hand, he was doing little to justify a "listing" and a small fee might in order for handing the paperwork... but that was all.
He hung up -- just fishing for another listing was my guess. And likely was a lier.
Lots of shades of honesty out there.
I brokered a few boats, decades ago, and still know some hard-working boat brokers. IMHO, it's a tough business.
But that's not where this thread actually started!
Loren
But Then he wanted me to list it, and I refused. I told him that if he really had a buyer in hand, he was doing little to justify a "listing" and a small fee might in order for handing the paperwork... but that was all.
He hung up -- just fishing for another listing was my guess. And likely was a lier.
Lots of shades of honesty out there.
I brokered a few boats, decades ago, and still know some hard-working boat brokers. IMHO, it's a tough business.
But that's not where this thread actually started!
Loren
thanks for all the helpful comments !. i might add a description of the attempted scam from sale of the last boat, a 1980 seafarer 30 which I had advertised for 25K in Good Old Boat: I got an email (dated 3 am , but hey, i am sometimes up that early...) the email asked some very good questions about the boat and stated they'd seen it at the marina on the hard( which was theoretically possible, but the inside was locked. they might have looked through the ports, though.) they stated they were very happy with condition, no sure needed, and that i'd receive a certified check for full asking price 25K. (note the ask price was 15K more than the 10K 'based on BUC ' a local broker was willing to list it at...) sure enough a check arrived after Christmas, 25K and looking very official and certified. a few red flags: it was dated 12-24 and drawn on Maryland Teachers Federal Union, with official looking signatures. no teachers credit union in America is ever going to be working on Christmas eve. i took the check to my bank out of curiosity, and the bank confirmed it was a working account. i called MF T credit union, they were very appreciative. it turns out someone had stolen some of their official checks, and this was one of them. I sent them the check and meanwhile hoped the scammer would supply real name and address...no joy. the boat sold for 24k to a legitimate buyer in the spring.
i checked out the broker whose strange proposition started this thread --- he is out of Moffitt Yachts in FL.
Mitch,
Did you contact the police down there to investigate since the check you got was stolen? That was an actual check but stolen sure is scary. I still like the idea of wire transfere of funds into an account that no monies cannot be withdrawn from via wire directions unless you authorize it or not at all.
The only issue I ever had in 30 years of selling boats overseas was one from Australia. The buyer sent photos of the boat disheveled demanding funds back stating I shipped the boat that way. I sent him photos of inside and outside of the boat left at port of export in the proper manor of cleanliness and tie down and then advised it was Australian customs who went thru the boat plus the claims he made to the freight forwarder, shipping company, export and import demanding an apology all because he gave customs a hard time. Three weeks later and apology came thru. In thirty years of selling boats overseas to every continent and many countries, never once was there ever a survey. Reputation and experience preceded my company.
Did you contact the police down there to investigate since the check you got was stolen? That was an actual check but stolen sure is scary. I still like the idea of wire transfere of funds into an account that no monies cannot be withdrawn from via wire directions unless you authorize it or not at all.
The only issue I ever had in 30 years of selling boats overseas was one from Australia. The buyer sent photos of the boat disheveled demanding funds back stating I shipped the boat that way. I sent him photos of inside and outside of the boat left at port of export in the proper manor of cleanliness and tie down and then advised it was Australian customs who went thru the boat plus the claims he made to the freight forwarder, shipping company, export and import demanding an apology all because he gave customs a hard time. Three weeks later and apology came thru. In thirty years of selling boats overseas to every continent and many countries, never once was there ever a survey. Reputation and experience preceded my company.
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On my last purchase, it was a private sale.
I live outside of New Orleans, seller lived in Charleston. I did a weekend trip to inspect three boats in NC & SC. Made an offer on the boat in Charleston months later. Purchase agreement was executed pending satisfactory survey & sea trial. I forwarded a personal check in the amount of $1,000. to the seller and he cashed it. Survey in Charleston was scheduled for 3 weeks later. After the survey & sea trial on a Friday morning, the boat was left in the ship yard on the hard. On Friday afternoon, we met with a notary and signed the bill of sale with stipulation that all funds would be wired to the seller's ship mortgage company on Monday AM. The payoff amount that the seller owed the mortgage company above and beyond the sale price was detailed in the bill of sale. The seller would not allow the boat to shipped from the yard until all funds cleared.
The only difficult aspect of the transaction was for me to verify the outstanding balance of the loan amount from the seller's lender. With all of the privacy laws, the information isn't readily available. Even after the owner issued a letter to the lender allowing me to verify the amount, the lender was reluctant to give me the information. Finally, they released the information as I informed them that the funds were going to be wired to the lender and not the seller. The lender furnished me with the routing number that was verified by my bank. Of course, I was not completely "protected" as the seller owed approximately $10,000 to the ships mortgage company above the sale price. Might have taken some doing to get my funds back from the lender if the seller didn't pay off the loan. After all was done, the owner did what he was supposed to do and I did what I needed to do. The loan company verified to me that the loan was paid off in full, the owner notified the boat yard that the boat could be released, and I paid the yard to prep the boat for shipping, and I arranged for the shipment. All went well; however, it did take quite a bit of work to make it happen. Also, it requires a bit of trust on the part of the seller & buyer for the transaction to be completed. A few years ago, Boats US actually offered a 3rd party escrow service to ensure that all of the funds are dispersed properly & a bill of sale issued. Not sure if they still offer the service.
I live outside of New Orleans, seller lived in Charleston. I did a weekend trip to inspect three boats in NC & SC. Made an offer on the boat in Charleston months later. Purchase agreement was executed pending satisfactory survey & sea trial. I forwarded a personal check in the amount of $1,000. to the seller and he cashed it. Survey in Charleston was scheduled for 3 weeks later. After the survey & sea trial on a Friday morning, the boat was left in the ship yard on the hard. On Friday afternoon, we met with a notary and signed the bill of sale with stipulation that all funds would be wired to the seller's ship mortgage company on Monday AM. The payoff amount that the seller owed the mortgage company above and beyond the sale price was detailed in the bill of sale. The seller would not allow the boat to shipped from the yard until all funds cleared.
The only difficult aspect of the transaction was for me to verify the outstanding balance of the loan amount from the seller's lender. With all of the privacy laws, the information isn't readily available. Even after the owner issued a letter to the lender allowing me to verify the amount, the lender was reluctant to give me the information. Finally, they released the information as I informed them that the funds were going to be wired to the lender and not the seller. The lender furnished me with the routing number that was verified by my bank. Of course, I was not completely "protected" as the seller owed approximately $10,000 to the ships mortgage company above the sale price. Might have taken some doing to get my funds back from the lender if the seller didn't pay off the loan. After all was done, the owner did what he was supposed to do and I did what I needed to do. The loan company verified to me that the loan was paid off in full, the owner notified the boat yard that the boat could be released, and I paid the yard to prep the boat for shipping, and I arranged for the shipment. All went well; however, it did take quite a bit of work to make it happen. Also, it requires a bit of trust on the part of the seller & buyer for the transaction to be completed. A few years ago, Boats US actually offered a 3rd party escrow service to ensure that all of the funds are dispersed properly & a bill of sale issued. Not sure if they still offer the service.
I had a similar experience, when someone called and inquired about a boat I had for sale. Offered more than I was asking to arrange shipping. I played along and told them to send me the check, which I assumed would end the deal. A week later, a check came in the mail. Looked sketchy (type faces did not match, etc.). I googled the buyers name and emailed her to see if she was buying my boat. She called to say her account had been hacked, and that account was closed. She asked what account number was on the fake check (to know if her new account had also been hacked). I sent her the check to turn over to the Feds who were investigating.
Like they say....if it seems too good to be true....
When I bought a boat recently, the seller assured me he had paid off the loan and would have the title free and clear. I drove up to pay for the boat, with a cashiers check in hand. When I met him at the bank who held the lien, everyone looked very glum. Apparently the owner had initiated a payoff from his other bank, but did not specify he needed it done electronically. So his payoff was never received by the bank holding the lien, but the $$ had been taken out of his other bank and a paper check was somewhere in the mail.
We went to my bank branch in town, where the seller cashed my check, with me following him and my bag of cash, then back to his bank that had the lien, and we paid off the loan...in cash. That was the only way to get the bank to release the lien that day so I could take possession and ownership of my new boat. Quite the ordeal, but it worked out.
Greg
Like they say....if it seems too good to be true....
When I bought a boat recently, the seller assured me he had paid off the loan and would have the title free and clear. I drove up to pay for the boat, with a cashiers check in hand. When I met him at the bank who held the lien, everyone looked very glum. Apparently the owner had initiated a payoff from his other bank, but did not specify he needed it done electronically. So his payoff was never received by the bank holding the lien, but the $$ had been taken out of his other bank and a paper check was somewhere in the mail.
We went to my bank branch in town, where the seller cashed my check, with me following him and my bag of cash, then back to his bank that had the lien, and we paid off the loan...in cash. That was the only way to get the bank to release the lien that day so I could take possession and ownership of my new boat. Quite the ordeal, but it worked out.
Greg
fwiw, I sold my M26d, to a guy in Honduras. -he was legit, and the deal eventually went though, but I was very suspicious.
I'm pretty sure the shipping costs (container), and duties were more than the value of the boat. -go figure.
I'm pretty sure the shipping costs (container), and duties were more than the value of the boat. -go figure.