"Storm Tactics"

BobW · Nov 18, 2007

What's the controversy, Ross?

First off, I wrote what Steve Dashew said about the Pardeys' bridle tactic, and since, as you pointed out, Talesin and Serafin are similarly designed boats, his comment is germane to both. It's not a question of 'the times', it's about boat design.While we're on the subject of the Pardeys and books about storm tactics, here is an excerpt from Hal Roth's book 'How to Sail around the world' (which might seem a bit presumptious as a title if you didn't know he has done it 3 times and logged more than 200,000 short-handed sea miles). He writes extensively about storm tactics (in 2004), and includes this passage:"The Pardey approach fails to address the difficult problem of a large breaking sea coming from a different direction and striking the more vulnerable sides of the yacht. With the towline from the sea anchor parachute already angled to 50 degrees, the vessel is only 40 degrees from being broadside on to a possible breaking sea. "In a true wind of 35-40 knots, this arrangement may be satisfactory, but I should hesitate to try it in the Southern Ocean, the winter temperate zones, a notrheast gale in the Gulf Stream, or similar conditions. During turbulent weather in these places, sailors may experience an occasional breaking wave that's seventy degrees or more from the general direction of the tempest."I feel it's wise to try to keep the bow or the stern of the yacht heading into all big waves - breaking or not. Upset waves from abeam can be particularly dangerous."Another book I recommend is 'The Voyagers Handbook' by Beth Leonard, another sailor with a lot of experience. She writes:"The merit of sea anchors continues to be one of the most hotly contested points in heavy-weather discussions." Then she goes into a detailed discussion of the pros and cons of sea anchors, including the Pardeys' specific tactic.Robert, I really appreciate the opinion of one who has been there and done that - particulary the 'Chinese menu' comment; for those of us who haven't had the experience, the best we can do is to read, listen and compare the opinions of those who have.While these discussions may be entertaining or interesting, they are also informative.Cheers,Bobs/y X SAIL R 8

Robert Gainer · Nov 18, 2007

John, re: Repoly #16

Entertaining might not convey the right feel to the sentence. I don’t find the conversation funny or amusing but I do find it interesting to see how people think now as opposed to twenty or thirty years ago. Besides using the word “entertaining” might convey a certain derision or ridicule of some of the statements made so far and I have too much respect for many of today’s yachtsmen to say anything with that intent. But more then that, in my own case as one example I don’t think my library of storm tactics has improved very much since 1966 with the exception of the Jordan series drogue (which I will not use) but I do think my decision making process has improved since then. In the 60’s and early 70’s my tactics were decided by default and in the mid to late 70’s and all the 80’s my tactics were event driven. Now my storm plan is just that a plan, and my tactics are now plan driven. I think this is the result of experience because the education side of the equation, at least for me has not changed since I started offshore sailing. Has the collective wisdom of sailors also changed over the last thirty years? I tend to think that people are behind the times and as a group don’t have the same understanding of the nature of boats that people had thirty years ago.All the best,Robert Gainer

Robert Gainer · Nov 18, 2007

BobW and John,

The concern about breaking wave is well founded but all tactics in the southern oceans are different because the fetch and wind speed permit exceptional wave to develop. But there you do have sea room so running is often a better alternative then anything else especially if you have long warps to drag. I don’t think you see the same large breaking waves in other circumstances. At least in my experience the breaking waves have been “reasonable” in size and other factors were more important at the time. Being pooped and swamping the cockpit for instance while running was a much greater and more immediate problem then being swept by wave while having the tune of the bilge presented to the sea. Being heeled over from the wind pressure on the storm sails keeps the cockpit clear of water and the rounded bilge was a stronger surface then the flat transom which I presented to the waves while running. I think heaving to in breaking sea has much to recommend it compared to running and being pooped or even worse getting pitch poled.The great design issue in a modern racing boat is the distribution of lateral plane and the curve of area. A modern boat will often roll her stern up and out while she depresses her bow during the same roll. This moves the center of lateral resistance forward and because of windage mover the center of “sail” area (sail and windage) aft with the result that the stern falls off and the storm sails lose there bite and shake the boat or even worse start a series of turns. A full keel boat or a CCA style of boat will roll without the change of trim common in IOR or other modern fin types of designs. This is especially true of some design like the early Carl Alberg boats which had the center of buoyancy closer to amidships then was the practice with American trained designers. A boat that will roll without changing trim will lie very quietly under storm sails or while laying a-hull unlike a modern boat.All the best,Robert Gainer

Robert Gainer · Nov 19, 2007

John

I would always try to run when I was in the navigable semicircle of a hurricane and I would run when my destination was downwind anyway. The only time I would not run to a downwind destination is with a storm that moves as fast as I do. I would stop for a while and let it get ahead of me and when the wind and sea state were comfortable then run as fast as possible to my destination taking advantage of the tail end of the storm.I would bash to windward as long as possible if I was in the dangerous semicircle of a hurricane or on a lee shore then I would either lay a-hull or heave to depending on sea state, room to leeward and choice of boat. If I was in the dangerous semicircle but close to getting out of the hurricanes way I might try to run across the path of the storm otherwise bash to windward as long as possible and hope to stay out of the direct path of the storm.In all my sailing the largest mistake I ever made was to think I could cross ahead of a hurricane that went faster then anticipated while I went slower then hoped for. I ended up with 90 knots of wind and went right past the center of the storm. If you want to talk about confused seas that would be the right occasion. I was sailing a Chance 30-30 and at the height of the storm the waves were higher then my mast. I have no idea about how high they were after they got higher then the masthead.All the best,Robert Gainer

CharlieCobra · Nov 19, 2007

Having just gone through my third gale since

I got Oh Joy, I can say the Pardey method works well for the older full keel boats. After we got knocked down, we were able to point her to about 50* off the wind, ease the main a bit and maintain a nice, smooth ride in basically once place while we squared away the spinnaker and the boat. we really didn't notice the increased seas until after we turned up to douse the mainsail. Afterwards, we ran with the staysail only in 40-50 knots of wind with 6-8' following seas at 7.5 knots without issue. The nice overhanging counter of this boat handle following and quarterly seas without drama up to 60 knots and 12' seas, so far. Larger seas? I can't tell ya as I haven't had her out in anything stronger than Force 10 conditions.However, in storm tactics, I'll defer to Robert. He's been there and done that. Me? I've just nibbled around the edges.

BobW · Nov 19, 2007

'Presumed Lost'?

Is that you, Robert Gainer?

I'm curious about one point, Robert: you state that you won't use a Jordan series drogue. In all my research on that device, you are the first to be so negative about it. May I inquire as to why?While I obviously defer to the wisdom and experience of those who have lived through survival storms, perhaps I am allowed to offer a couple of thoughts on survival storms:1. What works best for one boat/sailor/crew may not for another - every situation is unique, especially when one considers the weather, location, equipment, etc.... there are a LOT of factors going into the equation.2. The more options you have, the better your chance of survival.3. The better information you have, the better your chances. Knowing that a survival storm is coming, from where and when - especially with better advance warning - is the absolute best tactic, when available.4. When deciding on a storm anchor or drogue, be VERY aware that the type, size and technique used will determine the force the device exerts on the attachment point - I have read estimates of more than 10,000 pounds peak force when the boat 'yo-yo's' against a sea anchor. That's more than most cleats or winches will withstand.5. You won't get the chance to read, learn and equip your boat when the wind passes Force 10 - do it now, get advice from a number of sources, and decide on your own set of tactics. All of the books mentioned in this thread are good, and there are documented cases of boats and sailors surviving the worst storms imaginable using every one of these tactics.... and even some who have just lowered their sails and gone below (presumably to pray).Cheers,Bobs/y X SAIL R 8

Robert Gainer · Nov 19, 2007

BobW

Yes the book “Presumed Lost” was about all my sailing leading up to the encounter with the hurricane. At the time it was funny in a way to read my own obituary in the newspapers and the royalties from the deal did help pay for my next boat but I was never fond of the book. The author didn’t write it as a sailing orientated book but instead geared it to the mass market paperback trade. I did enjoy some of the other articles and mentions in other books at the time. Motor Boating and Sailing did some articles back then that made me sound a lot more skilled then I was and Richard Henderson now has my name in the second edition of his book “Single Handed Sailors.” When I found out I was in Henderson’s book I had to get a copy to see if I was an example of how to do it or how not to do it. It turns out I am listed in his “Honor Roll” of single handers of all time. My name is listed along with the truly great names but I think it’s only because I didn’t die from stupidity yet. Is that an honor or what, I’m not sure.I think the Jordan Series Drogue has a place and if it fits into your plans then by all means use. My objection to it is very simple and based on two things. First, the loading on the bridle attachment points can be very large and most small boats don’t have hardware that can handle it. If I had deployed one on my Chance 30-30 during the hurricane the attachment point strain might have approached 10,000 pounds with 90 knots of wind using data published by Jordan. Second I was pooped while running in the hurricane and had the cockpit filled. With the stern down and bow high you can’t turn the boat because of wind pressure and no boat speed so with no freeboard aft each seceding wave sweeps the boat and keeps the cockpit filled. Of course while the cockpit is filled lots of water is getting below further reducing your freeboard and everything tends to encourage your sinking. At the time I was running under bare poles and had to host my trysail after being pooped to get the boat to turn. Getting any sail up under the conditions was difficult and working on the cabin top to get the trysail up was not easy. When I got the boat broadside to the wind and waves the boat lay on her side and dumped the water from the cockpit. If I had deployed a drag device while running it would have been cut free at this point to allow me to regain control of the boat so it would be of no further use even if it had been useful up to this point. Would using a drag have prevented the boat from being pooped? No in this case because the waves were jumping up and would become very steep and exceed the stable length height ratio and the top would just fall onto the boat. So I think towing a drag device would have only made things worse in this case. Can they help in other circumstances? Maybe but it doesn’t fit into my plans for speed control while running and when the speed become such that it might be helpful the attachment point loading alone would rule them out on my boat. At this point laying a-hull begins to look very inviting and you may have already passed the point of heaving to because of increased wind speed. Now the only problem is timing the turn so you can lay a-hull without rolling the boat during the turn. By the way I did roll the boat during the storm while laying a-hull and that’s what put an end to any thoughts of continuing after the storm. Rolling a boat is almost always bad and not to be recommended under any circumstances. But as they say stuff happens.All the best,Robert Gainer

Brian M H23 · Nov 20, 2007

Just a thought

But if you have a boat that cannot heave-to with *just* the mainsail, it may not be the most warranted tactic in true storm conditions. While the mainsail loads the mast, boom, and mainsheet, the mast doesn't have a lot of leverage on the upper shrouds, forestay, and backstay. Conversely, a small jib, pulling quite hard at a relatively concentrated point, and by nature pulling at a much different angle than inline with the stay, can induce a lot of tension, and in 90+ knot gust it seems to be quite likely that one could exceed the stays limits. Edit: Before anyone asks, by "not a lot of leverage", I mean that the mast pulls on the shrouds in the direction that thay were intended to be pulled upon, and are rated for. a 40' wire rope rated for 5,000 lbs can't support nearly that much if it were horizontal and being pulled down in the middle. In this case, that horizontal pull is the sail

John Nantz · Nov 20, 2007

Other Concerns

Besides sails, trim, drogues, and the like, I'd have some additional concerns:1. Drogues - having something like that deployed means there is something additional to be tended to and watched after. Something that generally speaking a person isn't familiar with, under conditions which the person has probably never experienced, and at a time when everything else is happening. Stuff can happen like getting lines wrapped around the rudder or keel, or in the case of inadequate cleats maybe a cleat can be pulled out by the roots and cause a water access point to the inside of the boat, etc. and etc. "Trouble comes in bunches" is an old pilots saying and I can just imagine what could be going on if the drogue parted company with the boat, or worse yet, drogue and cleat, and then there would be a sudden change in the boat's motion, etc.2. Rudder failure - the typical fin-keel boat rudder seems to be a weak point in the design. The rudder stock can have crevice corrosion around the fiberglass/rudder interface which can further cause weakness in the rudder. There have been numerous reported rudder failures in boat under much less-severe conditions than a significant storm. Maybe a rudder failure in combination with a drogue failure? Remember, trouble comes in bunches.3. Wind-driven spray - this can feel like being shot with buckshot, even at 40 kts let alone 80 or 90 kts. What about face protection? Or just keep one's back toward the windward side?My basic strategy is to avoid conditions where one would get into these situations to begin with, behaving said that, I came really, really close to being involved in a major storm. 1991, we chose the "good" time of year - August - to round Vancouver Island. August 8th we were flying the chute nearly all day in a northwester that was slowly dying out toward the late afternoon. Beautiful blue sky, oh yes, a few mares tails coming our way, couldn't ask for anything better. The breeze finally died out and the chute wouldn't fly any more so doused it and turned on the engine. About 30 minutes later the wind had built to probably 20kts out of the southwest and we were just rounding the point toward Winter Harbour. The seas were all white-caps and that night we wind was probably in the 60+ knots range (don't have my notes handy so just a guess). A day or so later the wind was 103+ knots at Solander Island (British Columbia, Canada) (picture: http://www.pbase.com/ed_whitebone/image/50021327) and that was when this important weather station blew away. Needless to say, we came within "inches", as they say, of not making it into Winter Harbour that day and I don't want to even think about what might have happened if we hadn't. As it was, about a week later there were three guys that were rescued from a trimaran that were drifting around Cape Scott with the boat in the inverted position. According to the news report they had sailed down from the Queen Charlottes and got caught in the storm. My personal feeling is that was the same boat that was in Sea Otter Cove next to us when we left that morning as it fit the description of the boat that was reported missing.When the storm passed we continued our trip south along the coast and the devistation was immense. The left over swells were as high as the top spreader on a 36ft Niagra! I know this because we buddy-boated with one around Brooks Peninsula. Rest assured, you (and I don't mean Robert G. , I mean anybody in general reading this) would not want to have been out there during this event. The guys on the trimaran were really lucky to be alive.

Robert Gainer · Nov 20, 2007

John

Yes, waiting until the boat was pooped was a mistake. I call this tactics by default because I waited until I had no options remaining. All my choices were made for me. The boat was sinking so doing something was necessary. I needed to get some sail up to turn the boat and hosting a headsail was useless because it was too far forward. The only choice was to raise the trysail and hope to turn the boat and lay her on the side and get the water out of the cockpit. Of course this is not the way to heave to with this boat so while I was dealing with more important problems like getting 3 feet of water out of the cabin the boat was hunting for a comfortable position and rounding up and falling off all the while shaking the rig and boat. The boat took a beating until I could get back on deck and rearrange everything. I knew the boat was going to either broach or get pooped but I did nothing until I absolutely had to and that is a mistake.Event driven tactics are better. You do something when something happens. The wind gets to a certain point and you heave to. Don’t wait until you have no options. But even better are tactics by plan. Heave to or whatever you tactic is before you need to. Why wait until it’s a struggle when you can anticipate what’s coming. Have a plan and implement the plan smoothly and painlessly by acting ahead of crisis or disaster. It’s easier to sail smart instead of working at it and playing catch up.All the best,Robert Gainer

Robert Gainer · Nov 20, 2007

Brian

I am not sure of what you are trying to say. You can’t overload a stay or shroud because the boat will just lie down when you apply enough force to the rig. In a properly designed offshore rig it should be imposable to break a shroud or stay from wind pressure alone. Of course if you take an unsuitable boat offshore you will destroy the boat given enough of a storm.All the best,Robert Gainer

Liam · Nov 20, 2007

Design

Mr. Gainer, I would personally not put my faith in the belief that boats and their rigging are "proprly designed" for anything that mother nature and King Neptune might have in store for you. I don't care if it is the best boat ever built... (read TITANIC)I believe that the idea that man is so smart and so competent in his planning and creations has been the cause of most disasters. A force 5 huricane can blow a bare pole rig off of a Swan. Along with the radar, the dodger, and maybe the deck cleats.Just my humble opinion.

Ross · Nov 20, 2007

Liam, If the standing rigging is strong enough

to bear the weight of the boat with any strand. (Breaking strength no safety factor) Then the boat wil knock flat before the wind can apply enough force to the sails to break a stay or shroud.

Robert Gainer · Nov 20, 2007

Why does everybody pick on the Titanic?

Liam,Why does everybody pick on the Titanic? The boat didn’t do anything wrong. The boat weren’t designed or built “improperly.” The Captain, Captain Smith was the one who sank the Titanic. He did it all by himself without any help from anyone else. The Titanic is not a useful example of anything in this case. I said that a properly designed boat would not drop the rig from wind pressure alone. I stand by that statement and can point to many example of poorly designed boats dropping the rig but can’t remember a single example of a properly designed well maintained boat having a problem from just the wind. Of course poor maintenance or accidents can break even the best-designed things but a well maintained well designed rig would stand anything the wind can dish out. This doesn’t apply if you sail in an area where you can roll the boat 360 degrees. Very few rigs will survive that but I don’t think that qualifies as normal service even for offshore boats.Now the greatest trick is for someone to recognize which boat is properly designed and a suitable boat for offshore work. If you go offshore in an unsuitable boat you and not the boat are responsible and you are asking for trouble. If you have an interest in offshore sailing it’s up to you to learn enough to see the difference between offshore capable boats and those that should stay inshore. And until you learn the difference it might be better if you stay near shore.All the best,Robert Gainer

BobW · Nov 20, 2007

Alameda John, I agree up to a point...

that heaving-to is a good storm tactic. If the wind/seas build to the point that the boat won't behave safely, then it's time to move on to some other tactic. That might happen at different wind/sea levels for different boats, but eventually it can or will happen to all.Note that I'm NOT including lying to a sea anchor (from the bow) as part of 'heaving-to' - to me, that is a completely separate tactic. Nothing I have read indicates that anyone lies to a sea anchor with both main and jib flying, which is - to me, at least - heaving-to.So when the wind/seas are bad enough that the boat won't stay pointed into the wind while hove-to, the question is what to do next.To me, that means either a sea anchor from the bow, or a drogue from the stern. Everything I've read leads me away from lying ahull in any situation I can do something else proactive in.The next question is: what are the limits of sea anchors? My research leads me to believe that when the wind/seas get bad enough, the boat will fall further and further off the wind, increasing the chance of being rolled by a wave.Robert, I read your analysis of the Jordan series drogue with interest, and reviewed some of the other opinions of it, which also mention the same drawbacks. Lack of boat-speed (1 to 2 knots), along with the force on the boat, are factors which would have to be mitigated.So, in situations where heaving-to won't work, we're back to the debate of sea anchor vs. drogue.John Nantz, I've thought about the wind-driven spray factor.... I wonder if a hockey helmet might be the ideal solution? I considered a motorcycle helmet, but think that would be too heavy and enclosing. A hockey helmet is light, and can have a face shield that comes down as far as you want it to, but you could still wipe it inside and out. Any thoughts?Robert, I'm adding a copy of 'your' book to my oldest son's Christmas gifts (after I read it, of course!)... he's 22 and has got the sailing bug - he's gotten into doing deliveries, a great way to build sea time in pursuit of his Master's ticket.If you're looking at offshore boats, you can't start anywhere better than John and Amanda Neale's website (link below) for their list of suitable cruising boats.Cheers,Bobs/y X SAIL R 8

Ross · Nov 20, 2007

It was interesting to note that John Neale

did not include Hunter or Catalina in his extensive list of suitable off shore cruisers.