Things have been a little quiet, so how about this one to get things going: when, if ever, is it good to induce some sag in the headstay?
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Sag
Downwind, with spinnaker. Pull the mast forward with the jib halyard after dropping the jib. How 'bout that?
Downwind, with spinnaker. Pull the mast forward with the jib halyard after dropping the jib. How 'bout that?
I sag
My wife says that I sag when I manage the headsail.... does that count.... and it is not pretty.
My wife says that I sag when I manage the headsail.... does that count.... and it is not pretty.
I'll bite, WHY?
I have no clue so please expand on your answer so I will be forever knowledgeable incase this question comes up playing "Trival Pursuit". You can tell I'm going crazy after this 6 month winter. Ray
I have no clue so please expand on your answer so I will be forever knowledgeable incase this question comes up playing "Trival Pursuit". You can tell I'm going crazy after this 6 month winter. Ray
Headstay Sag
Bob: Thank you for posting a question. The first thing a mate needs to know when considering when to sag and when to eliminate sag is what does headstay sag accomplish in the first place. Personally, I do not recommend that beginners to intermedaites mess with it. When you sag the headstay you are dealing with DRAFT DEPTH in the FORWARD part of the sail. In light air condidtions you would want to sag a bit but as the wind builds you would want to eliminate the sag. A LOOSE headstay gives you a rounder shape and entry. This shape is usefull in waves and when you want to accelerate. A TIGHT headstay gives a flatter shape and entry. This shape is usefull in smooth water as it gives you faster speed and allows you to point higher. My suggestion is to keep the headstay tight as this gives you a better all around setting. When a sailor has progressed to the very high intermediate level or decides to get into racing then he should consider learning to sag the headstay. A number of years ago I was messing with headstay sag (for the first and last time)to see what it was all about. I slacked off the stay a bit and raked the mast back as much as I could. It was a pretty light day and when I released the backstay and the headstay sagged l did not notice any change so I decided to ease the jib halyard slightly. Somehow the halyard eased farther than I wanted and the top of the furler came out of the connection at the top off the mast. Try as I would I could not get it back no matter how hard I cranked on the halyard. Even when I tightened the back stay I could not get it in. And now, as my luck would have it, the wind stated to pick up. I decided to furl the jib by hand over hand. What a pain that was. When I got back to the dock I rolled out the sail, cranked on the halyard and it went into the connection as easy as pie!! Never did figure out why. If you are a cruiser or a back of the pack to middle of the pack racer set the mast straight up and forget about headstay sag. Once you master all the other sail trim controls for the main and jib then you can deal with some advanced stuff like headstay sag.
Bob: Thank you for posting a question. The first thing a mate needs to know when considering when to sag and when to eliminate sag is what does headstay sag accomplish in the first place. Personally, I do not recommend that beginners to intermedaites mess with it. When you sag the headstay you are dealing with DRAFT DEPTH in the FORWARD part of the sail. In light air condidtions you would want to sag a bit but as the wind builds you would want to eliminate the sag. A LOOSE headstay gives you a rounder shape and entry. This shape is usefull in waves and when you want to accelerate. A TIGHT headstay gives a flatter shape and entry. This shape is usefull in smooth water as it gives you faster speed and allows you to point higher. My suggestion is to keep the headstay tight as this gives you a better all around setting. When a sailor has progressed to the very high intermediate level or decides to get into racing then he should consider learning to sag the headstay. A number of years ago I was messing with headstay sag (for the first and last time)to see what it was all about. I slacked off the stay a bit and raked the mast back as much as I could. It was a pretty light day and when I released the backstay and the headstay sagged l did not notice any change so I decided to ease the jib halyard slightly. Somehow the halyard eased farther than I wanted and the top of the furler came out of the connection at the top off the mast. Try as I would I could not get it back no matter how hard I cranked on the halyard. Even when I tightened the back stay I could not get it in. And now, as my luck would have it, the wind stated to pick up. I decided to furl the jib by hand over hand. What a pain that was. When I got back to the dock I rolled out the sail, cranked on the halyard and it went into the connection as easy as pie!! Never did figure out why. If you are a cruiser or a back of the pack to middle of the pack racer set the mast straight up and forget about headstay sag. Once you master all the other sail trim controls for the main and jib then you can deal with some advanced stuff like headstay sag.
I have learned to live with sag
I have a B&R rig - with no backstay - on my 2000 H340 and have learned to live with headstay sag. Despite that my rig is reasonably tuned the headstay sags with the jib out. The higher the winds, the more the sag. Tightening the sheets only seems to cause more sag so I often have to reef early to keep the sail draft shallow in those conditions. But then, the reefed sail does not perform as well. Any suggestions?
I have a B&R rig - with no backstay - on my 2000 H340 and have learned to live with headstay sag. Despite that my rig is reasonably tuned the headstay sags with the jib out. The higher the winds, the more the sag. Tightening the sheets only seems to cause more sag so I often have to reef early to keep the sail draft shallow in those conditions. But then, the reefed sail does not perform as well. Any suggestions?
B&R Rig
John: I'm hardly an expert on B&R rigs and I'm certainly not a rigger but your loose headstay concerns me. I'm not an marine engineer either so I don't know how the mast on a B&R rig is actually supported but assume the headstay has something to do with it ot they would have eliminated that also. I know a number of guys on the Hunter list that really understand that rig and I think you would be wise to present your question to them. If that does not work I'd get a local rigger to look at it. Regardless of what the Hunter listers tell you, I'd still have a rigger check the system. Reefing early is not the answer. I'm sure it was not designed to work that way.
John: I'm hardly an expert on B&R rigs and I'm certainly not a rigger but your loose headstay concerns me. I'm not an marine engineer either so I don't know how the mast on a B&R rig is actually supported but assume the headstay has something to do with it ot they would have eliminated that also. I know a number of guys on the Hunter list that really understand that rig and I think you would be wise to present your question to them. If that does not work I'd get a local rigger to look at it. Regardless of what the Hunter listers tell you, I'd still have a rigger check the system. Reefing early is not the answer. I'm sure it was not designed to work that way.
John/Bob
Your headstay tension is accomplished through cap shroud (D1) tension only because you have no backstay. However, as the D1 is tensioned, the mast bends and the intermediates will slacken. Now you have to adjust the rig as each shroud in turn is tensioned and slacked. A Loos gage comes in handy to keep track of your rig tunning. It's a pain, but once you set it up right, you'll see a marked performance change.
Your headstay tension is accomplished through cap shroud (D1) tension only because you have no backstay. However, as the D1 is tensioned, the mast bends and the intermediates will slacken. Now you have to adjust the rig as each shroud in turn is tensioned and slacked. A Loos gage comes in handy to keep track of your rig tunning. It's a pain, but once you set it up right, you'll see a marked performance change.
Living with it...
I've learned to live with sag too, but what's that got to do with sailing? Since we are moving into the area of shroud tensions, though, I'll offer up another question: the Loos manual suggests equal tensions on uppers and lowers (assume a masthead rig), and enough tension so that lee shrouds "do not go slack when sailing close hauled in a reasonably brisk breeze." Other sources say to run the uppers 5% tighter than the lowers as a rule of thumb. The guy I consult most often says in 12 kts of wind, close hauled, I should have about 2" of side play in the lee shrouds. Is there a single right way to set up the rig, or does it really vary by personal preference for sailing characteristics (within certain parameters, of course)?
I've learned to live with sag too, but what's that got to do with sailing? Since we are moving into the area of shroud tensions, though, I'll offer up another question: the Loos manual suggests equal tensions on uppers and lowers (assume a masthead rig), and enough tension so that lee shrouds "do not go slack when sailing close hauled in a reasonably brisk breeze." Other sources say to run the uppers 5% tighter than the lowers as a rule of thumb. The guy I consult most often says in 12 kts of wind, close hauled, I should have about 2" of side play in the lee shrouds. Is there a single right way to set up the rig, or does it really vary by personal preference for sailing characteristics (within certain parameters, of course)?
Bob
There is no "personal preference". Either a rig is tuned correctly or it isn't. In a perfect world, the rig should be adjusted for the current sailing conditions. Race boats will adjust their rigging daily for optimal performance. However, we don't live in a perfect world so setting the rig is a compromise between all the possible sailing conditions. Having said that, loose leeward shrouds are not something that is good for your boat. Allowing that kind of mast movement will only lead to damage. I might suggest getting a copy of Brian Toss's B&R rig tuning guide. Brian is considered an expert rigger.
There is no "personal preference". Either a rig is tuned correctly or it isn't. In a perfect world, the rig should be adjusted for the current sailing conditions. Race boats will adjust their rigging daily for optimal performance. However, we don't live in a perfect world so setting the rig is a compromise between all the possible sailing conditions. Having said that, loose leeward shrouds are not something that is good for your boat. Allowing that kind of mast movement will only lead to damage. I might suggest getting a copy of Brian Toss's B&R rig tuning guide. Brian is considered an expert rigger.
Alan
I can only respond that the guy who suggested some slack in the lee shrouds (12 kts or more of wind)was a sail builder and ran a loft for a major brand for a number of years, crewed on a number of hot boats over the last 20+ years, crewed with Conner and Turner, among others, and is currently on winning boats in major races today. He is adamant about not allowing the rig to "pump" and to keep terminals from "working", but still recommends that some lee slack is to be expected above certain wind speeds. I'm not trying to fuel a fire, but maybe this will lead to more discussion. By the way, since the B&R setup is so different, will priorities in its tuning carry over to other rigs? Just curious...
I can only respond that the guy who suggested some slack in the lee shrouds (12 kts or more of wind)was a sail builder and ran a loft for a major brand for a number of years, crewed on a number of hot boats over the last 20+ years, crewed with Conner and Turner, among others, and is currently on winning boats in major races today. He is adamant about not allowing the rig to "pump" and to keep terminals from "working", but still recommends that some lee slack is to be expected above certain wind speeds. I'm not trying to fuel a fire, but maybe this will lead to more discussion. By the way, since the B&R setup is so different, will priorities in its tuning carry over to other rigs? Just curious...
Hunter B&R rigs are tuned differently.
This is one area I do have experence in, although it is 2 boats ago. The standard value of 10% tension with a Loos gauge is the norm for most standard rigs. The Hunter factory manual for our 95 H26 called for 20% tension for the uppers and 10 for the lowers. This allowed for a taught forestay and did wonders for our performance. The only way to tune these rigs is with a gauge. The factory was an excellent help with tech info while we did this. It is critical that centering is proper and that rake is also set. Ray
This is one area I do have experence in, although it is 2 boats ago. The standard value of 10% tension with a Loos gauge is the norm for most standard rigs. The Hunter factory manual for our 95 H26 called for 20% tension for the uppers and 10 for the lowers. This allowed for a taught forestay and did wonders for our performance. The only way to tune these rigs is with a gauge. The factory was an excellent help with tech info while we did this. It is critical that centering is proper and that rake is also set. Ray
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