Wind between 18 and 22 gust near 25, low waves, the bottom is around 20 feet. H 41 Seldom roller main new, genoa 90%. I sail in a place were the wind is always NE, and the coast line is E To W. So if i do not want to motor back you need to close reach. From tack to tack i need to open like 100 degrees, if i close more the speed will go down from 5.5 to less than 4, and if you hit a big wave you will set back to 3 knots, so i open 10 degrees more, genoa tell tales almost flowing well. and after 5 hours of taking tacks i like to travel the same distance i could have made with motor and main in a hour and a half. The main is like 60% off and the genoa is all rolled out. The boom is with atight vang and open enought so is not flapping too much. I fell the rudder balanced and the autopilot is not moving a lot. Incline is less than 20 degrees. The boat is 5 feet keel. I am asking too much at my boat? Do i need better genoa? I am a j24 racing for the last 10 year, so i think i now what i am doing. There is some mystery i need to know?
Still struggling going close reach
- Thread starter Valerio
- Start date
So the main is new, How tight do you have the foot? Are the Genoa sheets inside or outside of the shrouds. With a 90% you could run them inside the shrouds and close the gap. This will allow you to point higher.
The Hunters don't have a back stay so check your rig tension. What is the mast rake? If the genoa halyard is too loose, it won't draw well.
Not an expert here but when I had my 28 i was able to point high and get reasonable speed with a balanced helm. But I had a lot more mast rake than expected and kept the forestay very tight.
Just some ideas.
Fair winds,
The Hunters don't have a back stay so check your rig tension. What is the mast rake? If the genoa halyard is too loose, it won't draw well.
Not an expert here but when I had my 28 i was able to point high and get reasonable speed with a balanced helm. But I had a lot more mast rake than expected and kept the forestay very tight.
Just some ideas.
Fair winds,
genoa sheet inside, cannot go outside. the genoa car is almost all foward , so the leech of the genoa is closed enough. The genoa sheet if they are too tight the genoa will be too flat and the boat is too heavy and will stall. The main is looking good, i think is the 5 foot draft. i have a good wind angle but the boat is not pointing well.
Vang tight? Dunno about a H41, but for my boat the vang is a downwind control to limit twist when the mainsheet no longer can. I'm guessing you have a very flat mainsail that's not giving you much power or even stalled. Id say to give a try to: vang off, traveler to windward, get the boom around the center. You'll likely want some twist. If you've got telltales on the main all the way up get them all drawing. Once your boatspeed comes up a bit the apparent wind on the headsail will likely get those telltales flowing too. But I'd wager your main is more the key than the headsail on a Hunter.
Also don't discount current. As an example, from Oceanside to Dana Point it's often miserable to sail past San Onofre - the current is strong enough to make forward progress very slow.
Hopefully Jackdaw or Don G will respond 'cause they know way more about trim than I do.
Also don't discount current. As an example, from Oceanside to Dana Point it's often miserable to sail past San Onofre - the current is strong enough to make forward progress very slow.
Hopefully Jackdaw or Don G will respond 'cause they know way more about trim than I do.
I have the same boat you do and my wife and I have been racing it for about 10 years. We never raced before and struggled with the trim on this boat. Coming from an older Pearson with an overlapping jib this boat didn't seem to respond to anything we did. Brand new boat and the sails were garbage.
Went to laminate sails to control the stretch along the leach of the main. Your main is huge and you need the power and control that it gives you. However, the jib takes you up hill. My jib is 130%. It takes careful measuring to get that much in the triangle. Remember the spreaders are swept back and it gives you a little more room. Sheet the jib in tight and if it overpowers you move the car back and let the top twist out.
At 20 knots true I need to ease the main. I usually ease the main sheet and vang to let the top twist out. if it doesn't overpower us we use the traveler to bring the main back closer to midships. Leave some shape in the main to get drive out of the main. Check the rake and bend in the mast. Per Selden bend should only be 1" to 2" and rake should be kept to a minimum. I have about 4" of rake. Prior to reducing the rake she would round up with every puff. With less rake she usually heels and picks up speed. If you find you need to use a lot of rudder ease the main more.
Did I mention we have gotten a number of trophies in our club races and some local regattas and we are usually the scratch boat. She is a quick boat boat she doesn't sail like your J boat. Good luck. Let us know how you do.
Went to laminate sails to control the stretch along the leach of the main. Your main is huge and you need the power and control that it gives you. However, the jib takes you up hill. My jib is 130%. It takes careful measuring to get that much in the triangle. Remember the spreaders are swept back and it gives you a little more room. Sheet the jib in tight and if it overpowers you move the car back and let the top twist out.
At 20 knots true I need to ease the main. I usually ease the main sheet and vang to let the top twist out. if it doesn't overpower us we use the traveler to bring the main back closer to midships. Leave some shape in the main to get drive out of the main. Check the rake and bend in the mast. Per Selden bend should only be 1" to 2" and rake should be kept to a minimum. I have about 4" of rake. Prior to reducing the rake she would round up with every puff. With less rake she usually heels and picks up speed. If you find you need to use a lot of rudder ease the main more.
Did I mention we have gotten a number of trophies in our club races and some local regattas and we are usually the scratch boat. She is a quick boat boat she doesn't sail like your J boat. Good luck. Let us know how you do.
Thanks for your help Butch, i cannot twist out the main, the sailmaker close the leech so it will be not flapping, so i need to open the boom until the jib flow will affect the shape of the main.
How close to the apparent wind are you close reaching ? In a regatta you are looking for maximun speed or you pinch the boat into the wind ? What draft do you have ? Please let me know what kind of spinnaker are you using and dimension. Also what is your PHRF ?
Thanks Jeepbluetj, the wang in my boat is solid and its working very well. The only way i can open the leech of the main is easing the wang.
Some random thoughts.
You are saying close reach, but are tacking thru 100 degrees. If thats what your boat can do to windward, that's your close hauled.
If you are trying to get to windward and you crack off 10 degrees past the 100 you are tack thru now, you will be tacking thru 120 and will get nowhere.
20 knots gusting 25 is a fair amount of breeze. You should be trimmed to that, keeping the boat flat more than anything else.
20 degrees is a LOT of heel.
VERY few APs can drive a boat to windward well. If you really want to go to windward, hand steer.
You are saying close reach, but are tacking thru 100 degrees. If thats what your boat can do to windward, that's your close hauled.
If you are trying to get to windward and you crack off 10 degrees past the 100 you are tack thru now, you will be tacking thru 120 and will get nowhere.
20 knots gusting 25 is a fair amount of breeze. You should be trimmed to that, keeping the boat flat more than anything else.
20 degrees is a LOT of heel.
VERY few APs can drive a boat to windward well. If you really want to go to windward, hand steer.
Without contradicting the excellent sail trim advice you have received above, I'll vote for the shoal draft as the reason for poor pointing. Compared to your J24 with an P of 28 feet and a 4 foot draft, your Hunter has a P of 48 feet, but only a draft of 5 foot. Your underwater foil just is not up to pointing very high. Agree that @Jackdaw will give a more scientific explanation.
On a good sailboat you can be able to do from tack to tack a little less than 90 degrees, like 88.
On my boat if a try that it will loose a lot of speed so 100 degrees is the less i can hope. That plus what you loose downwind i think 120 degrees is very optimistic.
I am a bit confused as to what your problem is, we have the same boat H41 DS with a shoal draft (5' winged keel) and hold close hauled right around 30* apparent, and if in >20 kt winds we are 70% main & 100% jib (our jib is a stock 110) while maintaining a balance rudder, our sails are 11 year old (ordered new ones super cruiser Boston Sails for next years season) we consistently achieve 5.5 under these conditions. Our heal angle would be <15*. As we fall off >35* apparent and <60* with same wind conditions we will achieve 6-7 kt, speeds with a heal angle of right around 15*. I have found the key to making speed with our boat is to keep the boat somewhat flat excessive heal angle will result in much slower speeds. The higher we point the further back I will move the jib car attempting to keep the leach edge of the sail flatter (less twist) with sheet tension adjusted to maintain good flow over the tell tails. I believe the new main will help us keep the main flatter during gusty conditions resulting in more stable heal angle and rudder efficiency.
@Butch23065 the prebend on the mast as recommended for the B&R rig is 1% from the boom goose neck to the mast head, which would be more like 6" of prebend.
• The amount of a pre-bend depends on the cut of the mainsail. A general rule is that the pre-bend should be 1% of the distance from the masthead to the gooseneck, measured at the centre of this distance. The mast must have no lateral bend. All pre-bend must be in the fore-and-aft direction.
@Butch23065 the prebend on the mast as recommended for the B&R rig is 1% from the boom goose neck to the mast head, which would be more like 6" of prebend.
• The amount of a pre-bend depends on the cut of the mainsail. A general rule is that the pre-bend should be 1% of the distance from the masthead to the gooseneck, measured at the centre of this distance. The mast must have no lateral bend. All pre-bend must be in the fore-and-aft direction.
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Never been over 5.5 knots close reaching, please tell me how big is your jib, the jib is beyond the mast? DayDreamer41, if you move the jib car back you open the leach loose some wind and get back on feet the boat, but you loose some way upwind. I have a fixed prop, can that take one knots off my speed? what prop do you have?
Daydreamer, do you have the in-mast roller furling? I don't have any technical specs but the tech I talked with at Selden told me no more than 1" to 2". After I straightened the mast the roller furling worked nice. When we first took possession of Panache, she wanted to round up with any kind of a puff. If you got a real gust you would be head to wind before you could stop it. We took off as much rake as we could and it was completely different handling boat. Once we replaced the sloppy OEM (Doyle) sails that come with it she sailed wonderfully.
Original 1991 traditional sails here with a 150 genoa and a fixed three blade prop that spins freely while under way. Little trouble obtaining eight to ten plus knots with 18 plus wind in all points of sail. I've seen 24 plus wind under full sail close hauled with the rail in the water. Exhilarating solo experience. Good thing the admiral was not aboard.
You might want to check the calibration of your knot meter. 10 knots would require 55+ feet of water line to achieve hull speed. Surfing or speed over the ground is a different story.
@Valerio when I refer to moving the jib cars I am moving toward aft to optimize the flow over the sail watching the tell tails, I have a Flex-O-fold 3 bladed prop and yes a fixed prop is like dragging a (5) gallon bucket behind the boat, resulting in loss of speed.
@Butch23065 I copied the Selden info from a Selden instructional manual, but, I do need to experiment some on our Sapphire, I will have a new main sail next spring and I know that too much prebend in the mast will make furling a pain, as it was getting to be with the original sail. I probably have 4-5" of prebend in our mast. I haven't measured rake, something to look at in the spring.
@Butch23065 I copied the Selden info from a Selden instructional manual, but, I do need to experiment some on our Sapphire, I will have a new main sail next spring and I know that too much prebend in the mast will make furling a pain, as it was getting to be with the original sail. I probably have 4-5" of prebend in our mast. I haven't measured rake, something to look at in the spring.
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I know some people with the DS model and it appears they can handle slightly higher winds with less heel and less tendency to round up. I always wanted to compare mast position to keel on both boats to see if they are the same. I know the hulls are the same.
Valerio, on a beam reach, what is your H41 capable of.
Just off my head, it sounds like you are right, you are under performing. 90% headsail seems small, or is that a reefed measurement?
I found this Cruising World review of the H41 shoal draft.
https://www.cruisingworld.com/sailboats/hunter-41-deck-saloon-home-speed
"we ... took head-on the full 18- to 20-knot brunt of a northeasterly wind. While the seas weren't large, they were sloppy and persistent, and the 41 DS coursed easily through them at more than 6 knots,"
They didn't say what the angle was, but the implication was that they were close-hauled.
You said the helm felt balanced? So, not stalling the rudder. What does your bottom look like? Clean?
As a 10 year racer, I'm sure you're better acquainted with sail trim and the problems with old stretched out sails. Too much heeling, not pointing high enough, are symptoms of that. You've tightened your outhaul and vanged the boom to keep the leach controlled. In-mast furling means no horizontal battens. Straight roach? The luff of your headsail is tight? Moving the sheet cars aft should help flatten the angle of attack along the foot.
I'm sure you've tried all this already, I'm just musing out loud in the hopes that something triggers a good idea.
How about your standing rig tuning? Are you're lowers tight enough? No lateral bend in the middle of the mast? No dancing turnbuckles?
I'm interested in seeing how this gets resolved. Keep us posted on your progress.
-Will (Dragonfly)
Just off my head, it sounds like you are right, you are under performing. 90% headsail seems small, or is that a reefed measurement?
I found this Cruising World review of the H41 shoal draft.
https://www.cruisingworld.com/sailboats/hunter-41-deck-saloon-home-speed
"we ... took head-on the full 18- to 20-knot brunt of a northeasterly wind. While the seas weren't large, they were sloppy and persistent, and the 41 DS coursed easily through them at more than 6 knots,"
They didn't say what the angle was, but the implication was that they were close-hauled.
You said the helm felt balanced? So, not stalling the rudder. What does your bottom look like? Clean?
As a 10 year racer, I'm sure you're better acquainted with sail trim and the problems with old stretched out sails. Too much heeling, not pointing high enough, are symptoms of that. You've tightened your outhaul and vanged the boom to keep the leach controlled. In-mast furling means no horizontal battens. Straight roach? The luff of your headsail is tight? Moving the sheet cars aft should help flatten the angle of attack along the foot.
I'm sure you've tried all this already, I'm just musing out loud in the hopes that something triggers a good idea.
How about your standing rig tuning? Are you're lowers tight enough? No lateral bend in the middle of the mast? No dancing turnbuckles?
I'm interested in seeing how this gets resolved. Keep us posted on your progress.
-Will (Dragonfly)
Boat ST50 knot meter not so much, but it still works pretty good for speed through the water. My speed reference above here is over ground using my GPS chart plotter; more accurate.
whit a LOA of 35.5 feet of a Hunter 41, the square roof multiplay by 1.37 equals 8.22 more or less of the maximun teorical speed of a hull of a hunter 41. It is almost impossible to go at 8.22 knots in a H41 at a close reach .Reading the comments of this forum, I think if a change my propeller and redo the bottom buy a bigger genoa it can be like 6.5 but no more. Open reach wind is another story i think i can make the 8.2 max speed. 8 to 10 plus knots sound impossible to me.